Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

I don't think you are understanding the value of God manifesting Himself to a person to the point they now believe there is a God.

These people in Romans 1 just chose to deny accepting Him as God but they still understood that He was God.

Let's look at it from the opposite viewpoint where God manifested Himself and they continue to acknowledge Him as God. Are you saying God would reject them?

You've missed the point in all I wrote. Simply because God has manifested Himself in nature and conscience, that's a far cry from a revelation of Himself to an individual. Knowing about God isn't the same as knowing God. The first is true for everyone. That's why no matter what culture you visit, you will find religious practices. The second is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3...and is only true of believers.

 

[Magenta]

We know about God through the gospel. We know God through revelation...Blessed are you Simon...
for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...Matthew 16.

Matthew 16:15-17

 

[lrs68]

You've missed the point in all I wrote. Simply because God has manifested Himself in nature and conscience, that's a far cry from a revelation of Himself to an individual. Knowing about God isn't the same as knowing God. The first is true for everyone. That's why no matter what culture you visit, you will find religious practices. The second is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3...and is only true of believers.

What I am stating is I believe those who get a revelation from God about there being a God is because if they choose to seek after God (because their eyes have been opened) it's God's plan to awaken them unto salvation.

I believe God is seeking everyone but He either reveals Himself or awakens them because they're at a point in life to understand what God is doing by showing they need Him.

 

[Magenta]

What do you make of the part that none seeks after God?

Wouldn't that be a euphemism according to the free willers???

 

[Cameron143]

What I am stating is I believe those who get a revelation from God about there being a God is because if they choose to seek after God (because their eyes have been opened) it's God's plan to awaken them unto salvation.

I believe God is seeking everyone but He either reveals Himself or awakens them because they're at a point in life to understand what God is doing by showing they need Him.

So...the awakening is from God? And this is what drives their desire to seek after Him?

 

[Magenta]

You've missed the point in all I wrote. Simply because God has manifested Himself in nature and conscience, that's a far cry from a revelation of Himself to an individual. Knowing about God isn't the same as knowing God. The first is true for everyone. That's why no matter what culture you visit, you will find religious practices. The second is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3...and is only true of believers.

It's why the gospel needs to be preached...

Romans 10:13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Cameron143]

Wouldn't that be a euphemism according to the free willers???

All means all, but none means some.

 

[lrs68]

So...the awakening is from God? And this is what drives their desire to seek after Him?

I've always said the awakening comes from God. And Romans 1 proves so does the revelation of God through manifestation comes from God.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, it does prove that man has the choice to act according to his evil nature. Just as bad trees cannot bear good fruit, likewise evil hearts cannot make good choices. Furthermore, I have provided BIBLICAL evidence that bible contains commands that were literally impossible for anyone to keep!

Israel had good kings and bad kings.

According to your understanding that would be impossible.[/QUOTE]

The bad kings were apostates. The good kings were believers in the coming Messiah, and they were justified by their faith and grace (Rom 3:24) just as Abraham was.

 

[Rufus]

John 15:1-4
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,
and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of
the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

How do you read this statement, "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit"?

The much better question would have been what did Jesus mean by "he takes away"? Also, you ignore the context once again. If someone doesn't bear fruit, then it's because they did not remain in Christ (v.4). And whoever does not remain in Christ was never a true believer to begin with.

 

[Rufus]

Just curious, what's the purpose of the people allowed to be born that you claim God ignores His invitation to?

Why are they even allowed to be born?

Is it because Hell needs the bodies?

Read Romans 9 some day.

 

[Rufus]

Do you understand that there is a difference between what can be known through creation and conscience which comes via the natural faculties of man and that which is through revelation that comes supernaturally?
What is manifested in Romans 1 is available to all because it comes through natural means.

It boggles my mind how many people apparently cannot see this truth in chapter 1, even though v.20 in the passage plainly, clearly, succinctly and unequivocally says what you said above. Unbiblical presuppositions are like cinder blocks tied to the feet of a drowning person.

 

[Magenta]

Galatians 5:1; Romans 10:10a; Romans 6:17-18; Colossians 2:20 It was for freedom that Christ set us free. Therefore, stand firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. With the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness. Though you used to be slaves to sin, you have been set free from sin and become slaves to righteousness. You have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world.

 

[Magenta]

It boggles my mind how many people apparently cannot see this truth in chapter 1, even though v.20 in the passage plainly, clearly, succinctly and unequivocally says what you said above. Unbiblical presuppositions are like cinder blocks tied to the feet of a drowning person.

Romans 1:20-21 Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

 

[Magenta]

From Romans 1:26-28 ~ God gave them over to dishonourable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

[Rufus]

I don't think you are understanding the value of God manifesting Himself to a person to the point they now believe there is a God.

These people in Romans 1 just chose to deny accepting Him as God but they still understood that He was God.

Let's look at it from the opposite viewpoint where God manifested Himself and they continue to acknowledge Him as God. Are you saying God would reject them?

And they still wanted NOTHING to do with him because the love themselves, the darkness, their sins, their pleasures, their money, etc., etc.

Furthermore, for you info, genuine spiritual understanding only comes through a true knowledge of the Holy One (Prov 9:10) . Moreover, The lost have no spiritual wisdom because that requires fear of the Lord and true understanding is to shun evil (Job 28:28) which the unregenerate cannot do. They are immersed in evil! Why do you think Paul wrote what he did in Rom 3:11?

 

[Magenta]

And they still wanted NOTHING to do with him because the love themselves, the darkness, their sins, their pleasures, their money, etc., etc.

Furthermore, for you info, genuine spiritual understanding only comes through a true knowledge of the Holy One (Prov 9:10) . Moreover, The lost have no spiritual wisdom because that requires fear of the Lord and true understanding is to shun evil (Job 28:28) which the unregenerate cannot do. They are immersed in evil! Why do you think Paul wrote what he did in Rom 3:11?

Proverbs 9:10

 

[lrs68]

Read Romans 9 some day.

First of all, Paul did not write in chapter and verse so when you read chapter 8 and the beginning of 10 the message is a complete thought.

But I agree the Potter can do as He desires to the clay. But if you continue reading you see Paul does show us the Jews have hope.

 

[Rufus]

What I am stating is I believe those who get a revelation from God about there being a God is because if they choose to seek after God (because their eyes have been opened) it's God's plan to awaken them unto salvation.

I believe God is seeking everyone but He either reveals Himself or awakens them because they're at a point in life to understand what God is doing by showing they need Him.

The only thing the people in Rom 1 received from God was NATURAL revelation that EVERYONE observes through his creation. They did not get divine revelation, a/k/a Special Revelation.

 

[lrs68]

And they still wanted NOTHING to do with him because the love themselves, the darkness, their sins, their pleasures, their money, etc., etc.

Furthermore, for you info, genuine spiritual understanding only comes through a true knowledge of the Holy One (Prov 9:10) . Moreover, The lost have no spiritual wisdom because that requires fear of the Lord and true understanding is to shun evil (Job 28:28) which the unregenerate cannot do. They are immersed in evil! Why do you think Paul wrote what he did in Rom 3:11?

The people of Romans 1 are indeed as you paint but that doesn't mean people with the same manifestation always rejected God.