The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

"I just go off of the word" is most everybody's claim. In reality we go off of how we read and interpret or have been taught the Word - whether accurately or inaccurately.

so we should not take Gods word as written?

Did it say he perfected us forever?
or did he not?

Thanks for your opinion but it's off-base suggesting I or anybody who interprets Scripture not along the lines you do are trying to take credit away from God. One of the concerns we have is that some of these teachings suggest we do absolutely nothing in the Salvation process. My main concern is that Scripture is translated and understood accurately so we aren't creating our own problems, which we always do.

Thats my concern to

Eternity is at stake. get this wrong. there is no hope. you are lost forever (whoever gets it wrong)

Perfected/completed forever in the perfect tense requires the next phrase "into/for the continuous/perpetual" for it to mean what you're suggesting. This is where the translators are getting "for all time". Otherwise, the perfect tense only says something was done in the past and the result(s) existed at the time the author wrote.

The present tense can be translated in different ways as we can see different translators doing in this verse. It's not necessary to go through all of this here. The passive voice is definitely here, but this does not preclude other Scriptures like Phil2:12-13 from adding information about the process if this verse is talking about the experiential sanctification process as some translators think it is and others do not.

Where do you come up with this?
For (gar) to introduce the reason, since, because, of certainty the reason....
by one (mia - eis) - adjective singular
offering (propsphora) - offering - Noun, Singular, Dative (dative - a noun that is in the dative case, which primarily indicates the "indirect object" of a verb, meaning the person or thing "to whom" or "for whom" an action is performed; essentially signifying the recipient of something or someone who benefits from an action.
Perfected - (teleio) - to complete. to perfect to finish verb, perfect tense, active, indicative
forever - (eis to dienekes) - without interuption, for all time, always, forever continuously from begining to end - adjective accusative singular

again, just interpret it as it is written do not try to add anything to it. it is quite clear what is being said.

for The reason of one offering (Which Jesus did in the past, when he hung on the cross) He has perfected. made complete, perfected, to finish the work. (a perfect tense completed action) for all time forever, continuously

those.

who are being sanctified, an ongoing process.. if I need to I will look at the greek here.. But I think the point of what happened and who is quite clear. and it is not present tense, it is perfect tense.



[qiote]Earlier in Heb5 the author wrote of being perfect/mature in Christ vs. a child/infant. The concept of perfection is spoken of about 9 times in Hebrews. Are you perfect? Or has the Lord's sacrifice provided forever with God's Salvation Plan perfection for those who are sanctified or for those who are being sanctified or both or those who were sanctified and remain in Christ - as He commands - and go through the sanctification process, or...?[/quote]
Am I perfect experiencially? Of course not. I am being sanctified.

But positionally. I am perfected forever. Take God at his word (or at least the author of Hebrews)

Our initial justification provides freedom from the imprisonment we were under.

It does not say we are initially justified, it says we are justified. Justification is a legal term, it means to be acquitted, found innocent, or redeemed.

Subsequent justifications can be any time a test or trial is implemented (this is how some read James, and others soften it by saying justification before men). To be declared righteous simply means to be vindicated, proven right. The context of its usage must be considered to understand what it's speaking of.

Um no. this is called sanctification. again, hebrews said this is ongoing.

Again, you're not able to speak for all people of all time in this regard. None of us are.

I never said I could

But I can go off reality. People lose faith in those who fail them, who turn out to be unfaithfull. who do not do what they promised.

Now unless you think this is God. then you must admit, no one would ever lose faith

No offense intended, but I cannot take your word for what Scripture says. Please post any you want to interpret as you are here.

I never asked you to take my word for anything. Just look to the word and what it says.

be a God follower. not a man follower.

This is really not an argument. Please do better. If you'd like to discuss any Scripture, please bring it up and hopefully you'll be able to understand my arguments are against your interpretation of the Word.

You mean Like Heb 10: 14? I heard your arguments, and they still do not match with what the word says.

And I brought up more scripture.

13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Lk. 8:13-14 NKJ)

The second 8:13 believe for a while then fall away. Fall away from what/whom? Believe so were saved? Saved but no rewards? Believe, were saved, fall away/withdraw/rebel [from belief, from salvation]

The third 8:14 they heard. Did they believe? Did they begin to grow but never completed the production of fruit?

You tell me since you're saying I'm arguing against the Word. If you want a lighter load, explain belief for salvation re: the second soil.

Ok. Did any of these 3 produce fruit?
If your answer is no. They had mere belief, mere belief never saved anyone, they never trusted God. If they truly trusted God. they would have at least produced some fruit.

Re: Heb6:

• What do you mean "if it is possible"?
  • Is it possible or not?
  • Is "if" a proper translation?
• You're saying that these verses are saying that if we even claim we could lose salvation this puts Christ to open shame???
  • Would you like to go through these Scriptures that are speaking in the context of a rebuke for lack of growth from infancy to maturity and a heads up that God may not permit growth at some point?
  • Where do you get this claim you're making

If they fall away

1. Did he say they did fall away? No
2. Did he say they may fall away? No
3. He just answered the question, it is impossible (what is impossible)
if a person falls away to renew them to repentance)

I mean it is not rocket science, against, just take the word as written.

We can start there before looking at other Scriptures like Galatians that so greatly concerned Paul that he said many things including Christ would be of no benefit to those who went back to Law (from Grace) - they'd be released/discharged from the Christ - they'd fall from Christ. This is just part of what's said.

yeah we could. Why do people go back to law? Is it because they always trusted the law. and did not really have faith in christ?

A dog returns to his vomit

why? Because he is still a dog. he was not born again anew,

A dog returns to his vomit (the law)

Why, Because he is still a dog he was never born again.

again, Not rocket science if you just come out and take God at his word.

Sure, that's what I think. As I said, please do better in your arguments.

My arguments are fine..

Let's begin with any of the Scripture brought out above. Heb6 and Luke8 intrigue me.

we are still stuck in hebrews. 10, But Heb 6 is quite clear. he never said anyone fell away, His argument is if a person did fall away, they could not be renewed (resaved)

a person who tries this new Christian thing out. then goes back to law. You will never convince them to return to grace..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Try again…hint: nothing you can say proves OSAS. No verse proves any version of unconditional OSAS.

yawn.

I have eternal life. Nothing you say or do will take that from me

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

On the one hand I stated that God cannot do what is against His will. Rephrasing that, we can also say that God never wills what is against His nature. I agree with you about freely accepting, or, rather, freely responding to the drawing the Lord extends to ALL of mankind.

So, what this means, then, is the TULIP people have to ASSUME something into God's nature and will that which simply isn't there, in that He allegedly has any will for any man to go to Hell when in fact the Lord stated otherwise in His written word to us. They have such a self-contradictory view of God's nature and resulting will, which is only an evidence of the inner conflicts they have within themselves, not something within God.

All the Rabbis I have ever known or heard who know and understand the scriptures far better than the TULIP followers, they too see this false doctrine of TULIP as having demonic origins. To them, it's about decisive obedience to Torah, which I do not agree with, but their understanding, rooted in ancient understandings, is telling in and of itself.

MM

they have people born again before their sins are even forgiven.

they have way more issues that just assuming what Gods nature is

 

[studier]

I look at it this way.

If its my work. I can take credit and I can boast in myself and my work.

If its Gods work. he takes credit and he can boast.

and finally. if not for the work of God drawing me to himself. Convicting me of my sin, Convincing me of his truth and his faithfulness. I never would have repented and believed.

so again, It is the work of God that brings us to faith. Not our work. Lest anyone should boast.

On the surface, my view also. In fact, I really don't see much of anybody saying anything different. The disagreements seem to enter in when the details get into our cooperating with God as He requires of us. Then the allegations start flying.

Or we could just look at it in context of How Jesus used it.

1. He who believes is not condemned (will not perish) Just like in Moses day,. He who believes and looked did nto die.
2. He who does not believe is condemned already. Just like those who did not believe in Moses day did not receive Gods gift of healing, and ended up suffering the death sentence that was given to everyone who was bitten, ie, they were already condemned, and because they did not believe, they suffered their just condemnation.

Notice what seperated the 2. it was not who did work. or who earned it

It was that one in faith reci9eved Gods gift. One who lacked faith rejected Gods gift.

I'm rushing a bit, so if you think I'm misunderstand or misrepresenting you, please let me know where and how.

The problem I see here is that you seem to be infusing belief with your understanding of it instead of considering that Jesus may just view it differently than you do. IOW, if one doesn't believe neither does one look thus, he dies. If one believes, then one looks, and lives.

It's a mistake to remove the doing part because we think belief does not include it. Jesus didn't have that misconception. There is simply no proper way to believe who He is and not accept that who He is means we submit to Him. In fact, since God commands us to believe, our belief IS obedience. God simply does not consider this any kind of a meritorious work on our part. He's done all the work to get us to bowing as we must do because of who He is. It's we who start making things up by trying to make Faith into something it's not.

So lets do it.

He who believes is not condemned (john 3)
He who believes will never perish but will live forever. (John 3)
He who sees and believes will not come to judgment, but has passed from judgment (co0ndemnation) to life (John 5)
He who Comes to me will never hunger, he who believes will never thirst (john 6)
He who sees and believes will live forever. and be raised on the last day (john 6)
He who believes will live forever. whoever eats the bread will never die) john 6)
It is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and life (eating the bread is taking in Jesus words and believing or trusting in them)

so i do not see the problem here. It is all through Johns gospel.

Jesus is the one who hang on the cross. He sacrificed himself so we can be made alive or set free.. But he will nto force you to take it. He in his loving way, wants you to recieve it.

No person who ever had their life saved by another can take credit for saving themselves. they just allowed the person to save them, or recieved the gift of life given to them.

As Paul said, if it is grace, it is no longer works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

You want to work for grace, be my guess. You will fail

1. Again, what does believe mean and include?

2 I've highlighted "come to me" in your references. Does "comes" mean "believes"? If yes, then see #1. If not, then is "comes" not an action on the part of a man?

3. I've highlighted "eats". You say eating is taking in. No action on man's part? When Jesus commanded unbelievers to work for the lasting food, do see any correlation to putting the effort into hearing and learning (eating/taking in) it? Was Jesus promoting works salvation

Do we take what He gives - do we receive it - no choice, no action, everything is somehow passive while the verbs are active?

What makes you think that anyone who understands the scope of belief/faith differently than you do is trying to take any credit away from God? It's actually a poor argument that is way too frequently repeated. As is your inference that we do not understand Grace.

I think you have been instructed erroneously and do not understand Faith. I was instructed similarly. Then I learned to translate and study the Text apart from interpretive traditions.

In Jesus day, A person who was freed aftering paying their DEBT to society, got a written not of tetellesti - Paid in full

Thats what Jesus did on the cross. he paid our debt in full.. We can not add anything to what jesus did to make u=ourselves any more saved. However. we can try to replace his payment by unbelief and try to pay it ourselves (WORKS) and in the end, lose out on Gods grace

In Jesus day tetelestai also means finished/completed just as I said. If you want to include the debt payment rather than find the actual words discussing that, it really doesn't make that much difference.

You're simply repeating what you've been taught, which is fine, but you cross the line when you continue to infer those others with a bit different or greater understanding than you have are involved in some concept of works salvation.

lol. You can work all you want. You will never merit salvation.

lets make that clear.

lol, yourself. Why are pups in the Faith so rude?

I understand rewards and meritorious wages and where God says what we do is required and not meritorious/worthy of a wage. We simply need to let Him explain such things to us, which He does over time once we shed the error taught by different interpretive traditions of men.

I know your errors. Please forgive me if I don't answer your other post.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

On the surface, my view also. In fact, I really don't see much of anybody saying anything different. The disagreements seem to enter in when the details get into our cooperating with God as He requires of us. Then the allegations start flying.

Maybe it is the wording?

God offered me a gift.

I say "yes Lord thank you" and receive the gift.

Or I say "no thank you , I do not want your gift". and reject it.

If I receive the gift. I am no "Co-operating" with God. that literally makes no sense.

I'm rushing a bit, so if you think I'm misunderstand or misrepresenting you, please let me know where and how.

The problem I see here is that you seem to be infusing belief with your understanding of it instead of considering that Jesus may just view it differently than you do. IOW, if one doesn't believe neither does one look thus, he dies. If one believes, then one looks, and lives.

Or maybe you are doing this? I see no point in you trying to tell me this. we are sharing our views.. This is an assumption on your part maybe?

We should not assume, without also looking inside.

It's a mistake to remove the doing part because we think belief does not include it. Jesus didn't have that misconception. There is simply no proper way to believe who He is and not accept that who He is means we submit to Him. In fact, since God commands us to believe, our belief IS obedience. God simply does not consider this any kind of a meritorious work on our part. He's done all the work to get us to bowing as we must do because of who He is. It's we who start making things up by trying to make Faith into something it's not.

So what is the doing part? What do we do to merit salvation?

1. Again, what does believe mean and include?

The word faith in the greek (also translated as belief in places like John 3, means that we have an assurance, to have confidence in, To trust, To have faith in

It is more than just mere belief, even demons believe yet tremble.

do you trust God and what he says about your sin?
Do you trust God and what he says about your status and the barrier between you and him?
Do you trust God when God says their is nothing you can do to pay for your sin. that in your place. he came to earth lived a sin free life. and died in your place.
Do you trust God when he says if you recieve his free gift. he will rescue you. And Make you his son (adopt you into his family) where you will be forever.

or do you believe in Jesus, Believe he died. But believe you must do more to in the end save yourself. that his sacrifice was not quite enough.

2 I've highlighted "come to me" in your references. Does "comes" mean "believes"? If yes, then see #1. If not, then is "comes" not an action on the part of a man?

Just like in John 3, Those who looked at the serpent in faith. Would not come to him in faith not be the same? (remember Jesus is talking to people who came to him th enext day, but not for what they really needed)

3. I've highlighted "eats". You say eating is taking in. No action on man's part? When Jesus commanded unbelievers to work for the lasting food, do see any correlation to putting the effort into hearing and learning (eating/taking in) it? Was Jesus promoting works salvation

When you listen to the words of God. when you read his word. do you Gnaw and chew on those words. or do you just skim over them?

Do we take what He gives - do we receive it - no choice, no action, everything is somehow passive while the verbs are active?

lol.

once again, did the children of Israel MERIT their salvation when they looked at the serpent.

we are talking works of merit here.. Not of works lest anyone should boast. Again, can you boast that you saved yourself by saying yes in faith? Or do you boast in Christ. Because he did all the work.

What makes you think that anyone who understands the scope of belief/faith differently than you do is trying to take any credit away from God? It's actually a poor argument that is way too frequently repeated. As is your inference that we do not understand Grace.

Seems like you want to argue for arguments sake.

Again, Are you tryign to merit salvation by doing works of obedience. Or did you recieve it in faith.

I think you have been instructed erroneously and do not understand Faith.

You would be in error Stop trying to dete4rmine what you think I mean, and just respond to what I say by giving me your view of what faith is..

I was instructed similarly. Then I learned to translate and study the Text apart from interpretive traditions.

I doubt it,

So you would rather listen to men and not find out what the word means yourself?

sorry, eternity is far to long to even risk doing that. look what happened to all who followed the traditions of the OT church. they crucified Christ.

In Jesus day tetelestai also means finished/completed just as I said. If you want to include the debt payment rather than find the actual words discussing that, it really doesn't make that much difference.

Dude, Gave you literal examples of how the people in Jesus day used that language. And you want to try to argue with me that your using what the people in that day said?

Your hurting your own argument.

You're simply repeating what you've been taught, which is fine,

or maybe you are doing this.. We have started to come to a strawman.. do you have anything of value to say or are you just going to tell me what you think I am dong.

but you cross the line when you continue to infer those others with a bit different or greater understanding than you have are involved in some concept of works salvation.

Greater understanding? Dude, Your pride runs deep if you think you know more than I do.

works based salvation is easy

am I working to merit salvation, To keep it or to keep from losing it.

it is merit based.

I do not care who thinks they know better than this, this is a fact.

Do you boast of saving yourself?

do you want to discuss? or continue to just insult me by acting like your better than me?

lol, yourself. Why are pups in the Faith so rude?

Why are you so rude? I have been in the faith fore over 40 years. and you think I am a pup? Dude, your pride again...

I understand rewards and meritorious wages and where God says what we do is required and not meritorious/worthy of a wage. We simply need to let Him explain such things to us, which He does over time once we shed the error taught by different interpretive traditions of men.

So do you think you do those to be saved, keep your salvation or keep from losing your salvation?

Can you answer me? Or just again continue to mock me?

I know your errors. Please forgive me if I don't answer your other post.

In other words. You have nothing to come back at me with. just mocking accusations..

lol.. I think you proved your point. and you proved my point also.

once again, And you only have to answer this, I do not need any other questions answered.

Do you think you have to merit salvation? Do you think eternal life is a reward for obedience, or a gift paid for by the blood of Christ?

Forgive me if I sounded rude. This who post was prety much a rude response to me, and I tend to treat people with the same respect (or lack of respect) they show myself and others.

 

[studier]

Perfected/completed forever in the perfect tense requires the next phrase "into/for the continuous/perpetual" for it to mean what you're suggesting. This is where the translators are getting "for all time". Otherwise, the perfect tense only says something was done in the past and the result(s) existed at the time the author wrote.

The present tense can be translated in different ways as we can see different translators doing in this verse. It's not necessary to go through all of this here. The passive voice is definitely here, but this does not preclude other Scriptures like Phil2:12-13 from adding information about the process if this verse is talking about the experiential sanctification process as some translators think it is and others do not.

Where do you come up with this?
For (gar) to introduce the reason, since, because, of certainty the reason....
by one (mia - eis) - adjective singular
offering (propsphora) - offering - Noun, Singular, Dative (dative - a noun that is in the dative case, which primarily indicates the "indirect object" of a verb, meaning the person or thing "to whom" or "for whom" an action is performed; essentially signifying the recipient of something or someone who benefits from an action.
Perfected - (teleio) - to complete. to perfect to finish verb, perfect tense, active, indicative
forever - (eis to dienekes) - without interuption, for all time, always, forever continuously from begining to end - adjective accusative singular

again, just interpret it as it is written do not try to add anything to it. it is quite clear what is being said.

for The reason of one offering (Which Jesus did in the past, when he hung on the cross) He has perfected. made complete, perfected, to finish the work. (a perfect tense completed action) for all time forever, continuously

those.

who are being sanctified, an ongoing process.. if I need to I will look at the greek here.. But I think the point of what happened and who is quite clear. and it is not present tense, it is perfect tense.

Sorry, working on other things. Please remind me what we're contending for here as you understand it. Maybe these will help:

STUDIER: FWIW, there's also sanctification in #1

E-G: but then you have inserted a contradiction.

While I am positionally sanctified in part 1. That position being in christ, it is eternal. And it is called being perfected in christ.

STUDIER: Inserted a contradiction into Scripture, or into someone's understanding of Scripture?

The entire discussion is about the eternality of Positional Sanctification yet many of the disagreements over Experiential Sanctification and abiding remain.

Perfected in Christ? There are concepts of becoming experientially perfected/completed in Christ and His being perfected through obedience in what He suffered and the entire Salvation Plan being accomplished, but Positional Sanctification called being perfected in Christ?

So, we're discussing the concept of Eternal Positional Sanctification = Perfection in Heb10:14?

If we do get into further discussion, since we don't know one another, here's my answer to your first question I've boldened and underlined in your quoted post above:

I get what I said from 3 years of formal training in Greek, then being asked by the seminary to travel and teach Greek, then after declining, spending 20+years studying and translating and teaching from the Greek.​

​

How about you - why do you ask - did you see an error in what I said which I posted for you in the first of the above quoted posts?​

Next, in answer to your last comment I've boldened, yes, if we do get into the Greek, then you'll need to look at whatever Greek you're going to bring out and take a position on and explain why. You can forego some of the parsing detail unless you want to make some point about it. You can also paraphrase some of it for brevity if you think it sufficient. I know how to ask questions.

Lastly for now, if you think it necessary to tell me not to add to (modify) Scripture (which I'd appreciate you not doing) please be more precise with your explanatory translation (which I've also boldened).

While you're at it, if you do want to come back to this Heb10:14, please pick up a bit earlier context (since at minimum perfection is discussed in 10:1 also) and explain your view. Also, if you look at the "gar" again in 10:14 please clarify what you think it's attached to - what exactly it is explaining.

I may agree with you. I may not.

Thanks.

 

[studier]

If I receive the gift. I am no "Co-operating" with God. that literally makes no sense.

Receipt is active. What makes no sense is pretending it's not. If a gift is handed to us because the giver desires we have it, if we choose to accept it and receive it, then this is acting in compliance with the will of the giver, which is one of the definitions of cooperate (depending upon where we end up in way too many English Dictionaries). Your emphasizing by hyphenating the word to select your chosen definition and make it into co-working is poor argument.

However, even with your selective notion, if we fall back on Jesus' command to work for the lasting food for eternal life He gives, I don't share your concern that that means we're working in a way that merits wages against Paul's discussion of grace vs. works.

Or maybe you are doing this? I see no point in you trying to tell me this. we are sharing our views.. This is an assumption on your part maybe?

We should not assume, without also looking inside.

Did you not note my use of the words "seem to be". They're in the quote you posted.

So what is the doing part? What do we do to merit salvation?

Read again. I was clear enough. Even believing something God commands is doing what God commands.

Who said we merit salvation as we're discussing salvation here? Do you think by repeating this you're going to make it stick?

The word faith in the greek (also translated as belief in places like John 3, means that we have an assurance, to have confidence in, To trust, To have faith in

I'll narrow this part down to this quote. The simple view of what Faith is can be gleaned from lexicons and dictionaries. The Biblical instruction defines what God means by the word. Some of the pulpit teaching about Biblical Faith is too simplistic because the Text elaborates on the word. Your telling me what it means in Greek is part of this unelaborated and simplistic understanding. BTW, if you want to keep pushing your understanding of Greek at me, please start providing references for the material you're relying on.

Just like in John 3, Those who looked at the serpent in faith. Would not come to him in faith not be the same? (remember Jesus is talking to people who came to him th enext day, but not for what they really needed)

Are you now saying we're dealing with faith + looked and faith + come instead of just acceping something as true and not doing anything? Please be clear.

When you listen to the words of God. when you read his word. do you Gnaw and chew on those words. or do you just skim over them?

I'm not the one arguing for some sense of belief that doesn't do anything. How about you - do you do what Jesus said in John6?

lol.

once again, did the children of Israel MERIT their salvation when they looked at the serpent.

we are talking works of merit here.. Not of works lest anyone should boast. Again, can you boast that you saved yourself by saying yes in faith? Or do you boast in Christ. Because he did all the work.

No, you're talking works of merit because it's the only concept you comprehend. I'm saying faith includes not only obedience but also working for the lasting food Jesus commanded unbelievers to do. And then I'm reconciling this with grace means whatever we do to receive the gift of salvation is non-merited because that's what God says.

It's not me who's attempting to isolate faith to the degree it becomes absurd. I've studied with men who have attempted to make faith absolutely and completely passive even though it's an active word and associated with many other concepts like learning and choosing and obeying...

Seems like you want to argue for arguments sake.

Again, Are you tryign to merit salvation by doing works of obedience. Or did you recieve it in faith.

And you're not, of course...

Asked and answered.

You would be in error Stop trying to dete4rmine what you think I mean, and just respond to what I say by giving me your view of what faith is..

Stop doing what I don't like and just do what I say. Interesting approach.

If you don't like our discussion, please feel free to not partake. The ignore function also works well.

I doubt it,

So you would rather listen to men and not find out what the word means yourself?

sorry, eternity is far to long to even risk doing that. look what happened to all who followed the traditions of the OT church. they crucified Christ.

It doesn't matter if you doubt or accept what I say.

Take a breath. You're reversing what I said. I do study for myself. I also do periodically read what some of the "scholarly" realm is exegeting.

Dude, Gave you literal examples of how the people in Jesus day used that language. And you want to try to argue with me that your using what the people in that day said?

Your hurting your own argument.

As I said, take a breath. (Dude, lol - didn't you say somewhere that you've been at this for 40 years?)

The word has a range of meaning. I pointed that out. I'm happy to provide the lexical reference or post a copy of it's content. I'm also happy to go through other Scripture to deal with the payment of debt aspect.

Greater understanding? Dude, Your pride runs deep if you think you know more than I do.

works based salvation is easy

am I working to merit salvation, To keep it or to keep from losing it.

it is merit based.

I do not care who thinks they know better than this, this is a fact.

Do you boast of saving yourself?

do you want to discuss? or continue to just insult me by acting like your better than me?

More Dude stuff. My goodness...

Don't you think you know more than me and others you disagree with? I'm prideful but you're not. Interesting.

Please clarify whether or not you see come = belief or come + believe and believe = look or believe + look that we've been discussing above. Honestly, I cannot tel where you are with that at the moment. You see to have changed.

Please, explain John6:27 in context and in the Greek and tell me if Jesus is commanding work or not.

Please, explain Phil2:12-13 and specifically if Paul is commanding working with God on our salvation of not.

I have many other questions for you including some about faith, but we'll see if you've first relaxed sufficiently.

 

[studier]

Why are you so rude? I have been in the faith fore over 40 years. and you think I am a pup? Dude, your pride again...

Please read back a bit and see if you can pick up where the rudeness began.

Pups in the faith can be any temporal age and can have been in the pews for various lengths of time. Just because you or any of us have been in the Faith for however long does not mean we have been taught accurately or matured to any specific degree. The way I read maturity from the Text it is associated with properly distinguishing both good and bad from the Word and functioning accordingly.

Some of your views I've gleaned so far are textbook anti-works salvation teachings that IMO push the pendulum against what they view as from Rome to the point where they too go into error. We can begin by narrowing this down to a few specific verses I've already mentioned if you'd like, and then a few more, and you can put forth your 40 years of faith and your Greek knowledge whatever it is and see how we each deal with such Scriptures.

From what I'm seeing you simply focus on alleging everything you disagree with is meritorious works. It comes across IMO as empty allegation.

So do you think you do those to be saved, keep your salvation or keep from losing your salvation?

Can you answer me? Or just again continue to mock me?

Did I say anything like this in the quoted portion you're responding to here? Of course not.

I have been answering you. And, once again, where did the rudeness begin.

In other words. You have nothing to come back at me with. just mocking accusations..

lol.. I think you proved your point. and you proved my point also.

once again, And you only have to answer this, I do not need any other questions answered.

Do you think you have to merit salvation? Do you think eternal life is a reward for obedience, or a gift paid for by the blood of Christ?

Forgive me if I sounded rude. This who post was prety much a rude response to me, and I tend to treat people with the same respect (or lack of respect) they show myself and others.

No, IOW, the content of your post was becoming repetitive and stuck in allegations of meritorious works and I had something else to pay attention to for a bit.

If you're going to apologize for rudeness, then why be rude just a few sentences earlier? The apology comes across as hollow and empty. And, to repeat, go back and see where you think the rudeness began (albeit it's not that important at this point).

FWIW, I don't have to answer anything, especially when I have said several things about merit already. But here's an answer:

1. I think Salvation is a big topic with a large scope. Because of the way I view your orientation and understanding of work, I'm inclined to tell you that we have several things to discuss re: things like work that Jesus commands unbelievers to do, obedience as part of belief, other aspects of faith, work commanded of us during our experiential sanctification/salvation process, the concept of Faith+Works, etc., etc. I completely ascribe to Paul's teaching about grace vs. works of law and the gift of salvation by grace through faith, not of works, so no boasting.
2. I think EL is a gift and refer you to #1.
3. EL is more than a gift paid for by Christ's death, but this is saying there are more things to discuss that Christ, and our Father have done to provide the gift of life to us. iOW, in part, there is more than payment of debt in tetelestai.

If you want to continue any discussion, please no more lol, Dude, and some of the other things that have gone on here. I'll commit to the same but will not accept things like allegations that my differing views are prideful and that everything you think you see boils down some simplistic view of faith and merit. It just lacks depth IMO.

 

[Gideon300]

I think about this often

It's "The goal of your faith", (1 Peter 1:9) so it sure is worth thinking about. You may want to find a book by Watchman Nee, "The Salvation of the Soul". If you can't find a copy in a bookstore, it is downloadable on line.

I discovered (led by the Lord, better put) this book about 45 years ago. I asked God to do the necessary work in me. I sometimes wonder if I knew then what it would take, if I'd still ask the same question. But I am glad that I did not know and I'm even happier that God's grace has proven sufficient.

The most important aspect is to simply let God be God. He knows how to save (deliver) those who are His. He does not need our help, He seeks our willingness. We can even ask Him to cause us to be willing. I had to do that at times. I did not realise how strong my self will was. Keep your eyes on Jesus, not matter what. And remember that God has already made you a new creation. The salvation of the soul is liberating, letting go of what is worthless in order to gain what is most precious.

 

[sevoldoG]

Well, for those who believe in OSAS, and claim they are saved, then the indwelling of the Spirit of Truth would confirm the correct doctrine, and “veteran believers” should ALL agree on the same core doctrinal beliefs. (A few variables like depth of study, measure of Spirit, situations exercising the truth, Spirit confirming the truth, etc)

I myself am a OSAS believer, and I claim I am saved. Fortunately, the Spirit drove me to study the word of God until I was rock solid in the truth. Well, I am claiming that the Spirit of God has taught me and confirmed the truth concerning salvation, and the correct doctrine that hits right in the bullseye of truth.

Now, I would think that if a veteran OSAS claimer would agree with me because I KNOW it is the doctrine of TRUTH. (Let’s see where this goes)

I stand firm to the end that the original doctrine of the New Testament is the doctrine of TRUTH. The Pauline Doctrine of Justification Solely by Faith, and all of its attributes is the correct doctrine for TRUTH.

And I claim a big and powerful AMEN to that. Thanks for your time all. God bless you all, and all you love.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Please read back a bit and see if you can pick up where the rudeness began.

Pups in the faith can be any temporal age and can have been in the pews for various lengths of time. Just because you or any of us have been in the Faith for however long does not mean we have been taught accurately or matured to any specific degree. The way I read maturity from the Text it is associated with properly distinguishing both good and bad from the Word and functioning accordingly.

Some of your views I've gleaned so far are textbook anti-works salvation teachings that IMO push the pendulum against what they view as from Rome to the point where they too go into error. We can begin by narrowing this down to a few specific verses I've already mentioned if you'd like, and then a few more, and you can put forth your 40 years of faith and your Greek knowledge whatever it is and see how we each deal with such Scriptures.

From what I'm seeing you simply focus on alleging everything you disagree with is meritorious works. It comes across IMO as empty allegation.



Did I say anything like this in the quoted portion you're responding to here? Of course not.

I have been answering you. And, once again, where did the rudeness begin.



No, IOW, the content of your post was becoming repetitive and stuck in allegations of meritorious works and I had something else to pay attention to for a bit.

If you're going to apologize for rudeness, then why be rude just a few sentences earlier? The apology comes across as hollow and empty. And, to repeat, go back and see where you think the rudeness began (albeit it's not that important at this point).

FWIW, I don't have to answer anything, especially when I have said several things about merit already. But here's an answer:

1. I think Salvation is a big topic with a large scope. Because of the way I view your orientation and understanding of work, I'm inclined to tell you that we have several things to discuss re: things like work that Jesus commands unbelievers to do, obedience as part of belief, other aspects of faith, work commanded of us during our experiential sanctification/salvation process, the concept of Faith+Works, etc., etc. I completely ascribe to Paul's teaching about grace vs. works of law and the gift of salvation by grace through faith, not of works, so no boasting.
2. I think EL is a gift and refer you to #1.
3. EL is more than a gift paid for by Christ's death, but this is saying there are more things to discuss that Christ, and our Father have done to provide the gift of life to us. iOW, in part, there is more than payment of debt in tetelestai.

If you want to continue any discussion, please no more lol, Dude, and some of the other things that have gone on here. I'll commit to the same but will not accept things like allegations that my differing views are prideful and that everything you think you see boils down some simplistic view of faith and merit. It just lacks depth IMO.

Wow, you're posts are so clearly explained and scripture-base that you've got your opponent on the defensive and trying to distract you with false accusations!

Nevertheless, your posts have been a real blessing to me, as well as those of @Pilgrimshope in encouraging me in how I should live for God in accordance to His word. I really enjoyed your posts in this thread!


🚁

 

[studier]

Wow, you're posts are so clearly explained and scripture-base that you've got your opponent on the defensive and trying to distract you with false accusations!

Nevertheless, your posts have been a real blessing to me, as well as those of @Pilgrimshope in encouraging me in how I should live for God in accordance to His word. I really enjoyed your posts in this thread!


🚁

I thank you for your kind comments. They are very much appreciated. It's hard to know what's going on in the background of these threads except for periodic emojis which IMO don't have enough range for all expression. I truly desire for us all to see the Truth accurately and find the unity of the Faith spoken of in His Word. Thank you again.

 

[Believer08]

Wow, you're posts are so clearly explained and scripture-base that you've got your opponent on the defensive and trying to distract you with false accusations!

Nevertheless, your posts have been a real blessing to me, as well as those of @Pilgrimshope in encouraging me in how I should live for God in accordance to His word. I really enjoyed your posts in this thread!


🚁

Thank you for the kind words!! To God be the glory! I’m glad you see the truth…and I’m very thankful that my posts have helped. You yourself have helped me know my efforts were not in vain ☺️😄✝️

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sorry, working on other things. Please remind me what we're contending for here as you understand it. Maybe these will help:

STUDIER: FWIW, there's also sanctification in #1

E-G: but then you have inserted a contradiction.

While I am positionally sanctified in part 1. That position being in christ, it is eternal. And it is called being perfected in christ.

STUDIER: Inserted a contradiction into Scripture, or into someone's understanding of Scripture?

The entire discussion is about the eternality of Positional Sanctification yet many of the disagreements over Experiential Sanctification and abiding remain.

Perfected in Christ? There are concepts of becoming experientially perfected/completed in Christ and His being perfected through obedience in what He suffered and the entire Salvation Plan being accomplished, but Positional Sanctification called being perfected in Christ?

So, we're discussing the concept of Eternal Positional Sanctification = Perfection in Heb10:14?

If we do get into further discussion, since we don't know one another, here's my answer to your first question I've boldened and underlined in your quoted post above:

I get what I said from 3 years of formal training in Greek, then being asked by the seminary to travel and teach Greek, then after declining, spending 20+years studying and translating and teaching from the Greek.​

​

How about you - why do you ask - did you see an error in what I said which I posted for you in the first of the above quoted posts?​

Next, in answer to your last comment I've boldened, yes, if we do get into the Greek, then you'll need to look at whatever Greek you're going to bring out and take a position on and explain why. You can forego some of the parsing detail unless you want to make some point about it. You can also paraphrase some of it for brevity if you think it sufficient. I know how to ask questions.

Lastly for now, if you think it necessary to tell me not to add to (modify) Scripture (which I'd appreciate you not doing) please be more precise with your explanatory translation (which I've also boldened).

While you're at it, if you do want to come back to this Heb10:14, please pick up a bit earlier context (since at minimum perfection is discussed in 10:1 also) and explain your view. Also, if you look at the "gar" again in 10:14 please clarify what you think it's attached to - what exactly it is explaining.

I may agree with you. I may not.

Thanks.

so,

I find it odd you have to boast that you have 3 years in Greek. Yet you failed to respond to what i posed concerning the actual Greek word and their tenses as it relates to Heb 10: 14 and being perfected forever. I know people who have more than 3 years of greek and hebrew who can not even come to agreement as to what words say or mean.. sorry, but your 3 years do not really scare me or mean anything to me other than you SHOULD be able to understand what I shared in my post concerning the words of the text.

Last I knew,

we were discussing

1. Positional sanctification/justification
2. Conditional sanctification, or ongoing christian growth.

and your view that justification is found iun number 2. And conditional sanctification appears to be found in point 1.

did I get it right? This is what you believe?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Thank you for the kind words!! To God be the glory! I’m glad you see the truth…and I’m very thankful that my posts have helped. You yourself have helped me know my efforts were not in vain ☺️😄✝️

More and more Christians are embracing OSAS though because it's easy and requires no repentance on their part. It only looks at Jesus as Savior and not Lord. They don't want to have to obey God because that would require making Jesus their Lord as well. And they don't want to make Jesus Lord of their lives because that would mean having to give up themselves and their wants and desires to submit to Him and His Holy Spirit who alone can empower them to deny themselves and do what He commands.

True obedience to the Lord is the work of the Holy Spirit and not a work of the flesh, but they will claim that it is because they really don't want to give up control of themselves to God.

I just wanted to give you and other non-OSAS Christians some encouragement and to be refreshed. As time goes on, more and more people will embrace the false teaching of OSAS, which will lead to the Great Apostasy and the rise of the final Antichrist.


🚁

 

[Believer08]

More and more Christians are embracing OSAS though because it's easy and requires no repentance on their part. It only looks at Jesus as Savior and not Lord. They don't want to have to obey God because that would require making Jesus their Lord as well. And they don't want to make Jesus Lord of their lives because that would mean having to give up themselves and their wants and desires to submit to Him and His Holy Spirit who alone can empower them to deny themselves and do what He commands.

True obedience to the Lord is the work of the Holy Spirit and not a work of the flesh, but they will claim that it is because they really don't want to give up control of themselves to God.

I just wanted to give you and other non-OSAS Christians some encouragement and to be refreshed. As time goes on, more and more people will embrace the false teaching of OSAS, which will lead to the Great Apostasy and the rise of the final Antichrist.


🚁

I agree with a lot of what you have said. I appreciate the encouragement.

 

[HeIsHere]

more Christians are embracing OSAS

Praise God!! They have believed the true Gospel of the completed work of Christ Jesus on our behalf, they trusted Him for the gift of everlasting life.

“To teach that Christ must be Lord of life in order to be Savior is to confuse/conflate certain aspects of discipleship and confuses the gospel of the Grace of God with the works of men.” (Charles Ryrie, Balancing the Christian Life, p. 178).

Being a Christian means following an invitation.
Being a disciple means live out the inward gift.

To confuse/conflate these two aspects of the Christian life is to confound the grace of God and the works of man, to ignore the difference between salvation and sanctification.

The gospel of grace is Scriptural. The Gospel that adds the works of man to salvation is a counterfeit Gospel.
(Dr. Manfred Kober)

OSAS is the Gospel!

 

[studier]

so,

I find it odd you have to boast that you have 3 years in Greek. Yet you failed to respond to what i posed concerning the actual Greek word and their tenses as it relates to Heb 10: 14 and being perfected forever. I know people who have more than 3 years of greek and hebrew who can not even come to agreement as to what words say or mean.. sorry, but your 3 years do not really scare me or mean anything to me other than you SHOULD be able to understand what I shared in my post concerning the words of the text.

Last I knew,

we were discussing

1. Positional sanctification/justification
2. Conditional sanctification, or ongoing christian growth.

and your view that justification is found iun number 2. And conditional sanctification appears to be found in point 1.

did I get it right? This is what you believe?

The fact that you think I'm boasting by simply informing you that we can both get into the language of the Text as necessary coupled with the fact that you downplay the value of such abilities in others to produce agreement, while you put forth Greek to substantiate your opinions is all very telling IMO. As long as it comes from you, it's valuable. If it's from others, then it's boasting and unproductive.

No, you didn't get it right. Again, IMO I've been clear to the degree we've gotten into anything that might be productive.

Why do you call ongoing Christian growth "Conditional sanctification"? Will you explain "conditional"?

After answering this, assuming you do, let's start with some Scripture. I propose that you explain John6:27 in context and in as much Greek as you choose in order to make it clear what Jesus is commanding and how it fits with your view of meritorious works.

Then I propose Phil2:12-13 in any context you choose to make it clear what Paul is commanding. Since you're versed in Greek to whatever degree (I don't know if you're self-taught or have gone through formal training, but it doesn't matter if you don't care to share) I'd ask that you do some work on kategrazomai and how it is used there in comparison to other verses. I have the same request that you explain how this fits your view of meritorious works but also if you see this as an Apostolic command to do some work in our salvation process as planned and gifted by God to us.

It would probably be better if we can stick to the point and be briefer as best we can. Thanks for the brevity in this quoted post.

 

[HeIsHere]

And they don't want to make Jesus Lord of their lives because that would mean having to give up themselves and their wants and desires to submit to Him and His Holy Spirit who alone can empower them to deny themselves and do what He commands.

And btw ..... walking in the Spirit does not "earn" salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Receipt is active. What makes no sense is pretending it's not.

It is still no cooperationg.

When My father hands me a Christmas gift. I am no cooperating with him to get the gift. I recieve it freely in aww of his love for me..

If a gift is handed to us because the giver desires we have it, if we choose to accept it and receive it, then this is acting in compliance with the will of the giver, which is one of the definitions of cooperate (depending upon where we end up in way too many English Dictionaries). Your emphasizing by hyphenating the word to select your chosen definition and make it into co-working is poor argument.

Again this makes no sense.

However, even with your selective notion, if we fall back on Jesus' command to work for the lasting food for eternal life He gives, I don't share your concern that that means we're working in a way that merits wages against Paul's discussion of grace vs. works.

He did not tell me to work for this food. He told them NOT to work for food which perishes. but for food which will endure to eternal life. which he will give them.

Your tryngn to insert context where there is non

Did you not note my use of the words "seem to be". They're in the quote you posted.



Read again. I was clear enough. Even believing something God commands is doing what God commands.

But its not a work of merit. I can not boast because I trusted in someone else.

I boast when I work to earn my own way.

Who said we merit salvation as we're discussing salvation here? Do you think by repeating this you're going to make it stick?

Why can't you answer me? Do you believe you merit salvation by your works of obedience. or not?

If you do. which works?

I'll narrow this part down to this quote. The simple view of what Faith is can be gleaned from lexicons and dictionaries. The Biblical instruction defines what God means by the word. Some of the pulpit teaching about Biblical Faith is too simplistic because the Text elaborates on the word. Your telling me what it means in Greek is part of this unelaborated and simplistic understanding. BTW, if you want to keep pushing your understanding of Greek at me, please start providing references for the material you're relying on.

Which ones do you need? I use Logos Bible software. I have easily accessable commentaires. lexicons. Dictionaries etc etc.

here is an example on my phone (it is more indepth on my computer when i am at home)



maybe you recognize some of these resources. again, these are but a few when I look up a word

Are you now saying we're dealing with faith + looked and faith + come instead of just acceping something as true and not doing anything? Please be clear.

I have no idea what your even talking about here.

I am talking about faith

do i trust you. or do I merely just believe you

If I trust you, I will tend to show that trust by doing things you say because i trust you.

if I just believe you but do not really trust you. I will tend to not do anything you say.

I'm not the one arguing for some sense of belief that doesn't do anything. How about you - do you do what Jesus said in John6?

Did I talk about any type of belief that does not do anything?

Or are you just going off what you have been told I believe?

No, you're talking works of merit because it's the only concept you comprehend. I'm saying faith includes not only obedience but also working for the lasting food Jesus commanded unbelievers to do. And then I'm reconciling this with grace means whatever we do to receive the gift of salvation is non-merited because that's what God says.

Ok WHAT WORK?

are you afraid to say it? What works do I have to do? They asked that same question. and jesus answered them

"it is the work of God that you believe"

It's not me who's attempting to isolate faith to the degree it becomes absurd. I've studied with men who have attempted to make faith absolutely and completely passive even though it's an active word and associated with many other concepts like learning and choosing and obeying...

Yawn, Dude, stop trying to put me into some circle. and try to answer my questions.. You keep telling me what you think I believe and what I am doing. but what you say continually turns out to be wrong..

And you're not, of course...

Asked and answered.

Then why do I keep asking, is it because maybe your not clear?

Stop doing what I don't like and just do what I say. Interesting approach.

If you don't like our discussion, please feel free to not partake. The ignore function also works well.

Lol. So you can not just answer questions. You will continue to tell me what I believe and what I am doing. then get mad when I call you out?

It doesn't matter if you doubt or accept what I say.

Take a breath. You're reversing what I said. I do study for myself. I also do periodically read what some of the "scholarly" realm is exegeting.



As I said, take a breath. (Dude, lol - didn't you say somewhere that you've been at this for 40 years?)

The word has a range of meaning. I pointed that out. I'm happy to provide the lexical reference or post a copy of it's content. I'm also happy to go through other Scripture to deal with the payment of debt aspect.



More Dude stuff. My goodness...

Don't you think you know more than me and others you disagree with? I'm prideful but you're not. Interesting.

Please clarify whether or not you see come = belief or come + believe and believe = look or believe + look that we've been discussing above. Honestly, I cannot tel where you are with that at the moment. You see to have changed.

Yawn

Please, explain John6:27 in context and in the Greek and tell me if Jesus is commanding work or not.

I already explained this. I thought you said you read what I said. and you want me to say it again?

1. in John 6 1 - 14 Jesus fed 5000 peaople

2. The next day, these same people were looking for Jesus

22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”

The work they did was get into boats to go look for Jesus. but for what reason?

Jesus answers.

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

ie. they did not come to get fed spiritual food. or to hear the message Jesus came to give. but for physical food. they wanted to see more signs (as seen later) and get fed again

27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

He tells them plainly.

The work you did to come find me. Don't do it to get fed physical food which will perish. but for spiritual food which will endure forever.

Again, it is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and life.

He did not tell us to work to get saved.. He did not tell us anything, he spoke to them to CORRECT THEM

Please, explain Phil2:12-13 and specifically if Paul is commanding working with God on our salvation of not.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

1. Work out - Katergazomai - to bring about. to produce the results of, to bring out to prepair to make. A mining term, where a minor works out the things they are mining for.

2. Your salvation - Its yours. You have it, it is within you, Produce the results of it. Bring it out bring it forward.

It is not saying work to earn or merit salvation. it is saying take the salvation you have, and the power it gives. and work it out.

and you wonder why I ask if you believe you must merit salvation?

I have many other questions for you including some about faith, but we'll see if you've first relaxed sufficiently.

I am relaxed. But I am not going to sit still why I am falsly accused by someone who thinks he knows my heart my mind and what I am doing.

I will answer any question/. But hey, can you answer mine?