Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

First, copying and pasting Scripture isn't exegesis, Rufus. It's no wonder you think you're exegeting; your bar is set so very low.



Here's the copy and paste again - a.k.a. Rufus exegesis - with a little highlight for you of the type of SCRIPTURE that you are obviously blind to:

18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." (1 Ki. 19:18 NKJ)​

​

More active verbs, Rufus, just like men in 2Cor3 who turned to the Lord upon seeing and hearing Him and possibly His works or hearing and learning God's Good News about Him. It's actually fascinating how you are blind to this.

Contrary to your erroneous opinions, some men throughout history, even being sinners, did not ultimately bow the knee to false gods. Again, Faith is recorded in Heb11 back to Abel and onward. It seems clear that you are so deep into your tradition and have put so much of yourself into pushing it, that you've hardened yourself to this track of the story of fallen mankind.

You love the Darkness of Ignorance, don't you? Once again, you ignore the order of phrases in the above passage. See...here's the $64. question: Did the 7,000 not bow to Baal because God "reserved them" OR...did God "reserve" the 7,000 because they didn't bow a knee to Baal? You're clearly operating under the assumption that it's the latter situation. And how can God claim any credit whatsoever for "reserving them" or for "leaving them in Israel" when it was the self-effectuating choice of the 7,000 to not worship Baal?

BTW, don't you know that Faith is a gift of God? Could it be that this gift accounts for why the 7,000 didn't worship Baal?

 

[studier]

What do you mean by "a free gift"? Where does scripture describe grace as a free gift? Is every instance in the Bible of grace/unmerited favour also a free gift ?

If I go to buy a new fridge which costs $1200 retail, and the dealer sees I am finding it hard to part with my cash and offers to sell it to me at the wholesale price, as a favour to me, which part of that deal is unmerited favour ? Which part of the deal is a free gift ?

Does some transaction no longer involve unmerited favour, if both participants are required to contribute something to make the deal happen ?

I'm trying to think of examples in scripture where grace was more like the fridge purchase at an underserved discount, rather than a completely free gift. And other examples where the gift was absolutely free, rather than undeservedly generous. Maybe posters can suggest examples of either.

I would also question whether faith is non-meritorious.

Rom 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Gal 3:6
So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend.

Three times we are told that Abraham's faith was credited/reckoned/elogisthE to Abraham as righteousness. Logizomi is a bookkeeping/ accounting term for putting values in either a debit or credit column. Abraham's faith was put in the righteousness register in the credit column. That sounds meritorious to me.

I'm going to posit this to you for your opinion. It's something that came out quite some time ago from a focused, topical study on Faith. I'll give a shortened version in English but there are more Scriptures involved, and I have looked at the Greek:

• 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel-good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report (literally the report/thing/message heard from us)?" (Rom. 10:16 NKJ)
  • Note the parallelisms: obeyed <> believed - good news <> message heard
  • There is more of the same in Heb3:18-19
  • Paul's phrase in Rom1:5 and 16:26 thus bookending Romans can simply be faith-obedience depending on the way we translate the genitive.
  • There are more ways to approach this and see it from Scripture
  • obedience is parallel to belief
• Since the 2 words are obviously not the same thing, I this came from part of that same study. I'll leave it to you to pick up the context:
  • 5 And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith." 6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. 7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat '? 8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink '? 9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'" (Lk. 17:5-10 NKJ)
    • The apostles were being taught a tough lesson re: forgiving.
    • They fell back on not having sufficient Faith
    • Jesus didn't permit it and told them sometimes it's just a matter of obeying what you're told to do. Even then, in context, doing what you're told to do with even a mustard seed of Faith that knows Who is the authority.
      • Sometimes our instruction emphasizes belief
      • Sometimes our instruction emphasizes obedience
      • Faith and obedience are parallel but not the same - definitely correlated.
      • If we want to fall back on excusing disobedience on lack of faith, then we may well find ourselves under discipline. No games.
• A little mathematical language:
  • Some say obedience is works and need Faith to be completely alone, so: Faith + obedience/works
  • I disagree and think the Scriptural parallelism says: Faith/Obedience + works

I don't know if this figures into what you're pondering, but it came to mind when I read your post. I know you know that we need to accurately consider Paul's works of law instruction. But IMO works theology can use some more reasoning.

 

[Rufus]

Earth calling Mr. Studier -- our resident paragon of all spiritual wisdom. Tell me how your interpretation of 1Ki 19:18 squares with Paul's divinely inspired commentary on this passage -- that he also applies to the Israelites of his day? The text reads:

Rom 11:2-5
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
NIV

Paul clearly drew an analogy between two very distant generations of apostate Jews and remnants of believers, as well. Since during Paul's day (i.e. the "present time" of his writing) there was a "remnant chosen by grace", then this can only mean that the 7,000 who didn't bend the knew to Baal remained faithful to God because they, too, were chosen by grace! But of course, you'll likely pervert Paul's teaching by claiming that God chose the 7,000 by grace AFTER those 7,000 made a "freewill" decision to chose Him first, right?

Also in FWT, how could Paul have written in v. 5 above what he did, since this insipid heresy of yours requires belief that the remnant of God, throughout the ages, chose him first? Paul should have written, "So too, at the present time there is a remnant who will come to their senses and choose God." But, alas, the text doesn't read that way, does it?

 

[studier]

If FWs really understood what what Isaiah was teaching about the spiritual condition of mankind, no one here would be boasting about their "freewill" choices, or how the absence of "freewill" turns men into robots, or how that absence would turn God into a dictatorial monster, etc, etc.

You seem to always conveniently forget that in FWT, it is the sinner who effectuates his own salvation by his "freewill" choice.

Just because you allege others are boasting doesn't make it fact. It's just another weak accusation. As is a sinner effectuating his own salvation. I don't see anyone doing either. I just see consistent empty accusations from you.

I don't normally use the "freewill" term since it's really more of a philosophical discussion. I do use "will" and "desire" and "choose" since these words are in the Text. IMO the philosophical discussion is a distraction.

 

[GWH]

God does indeed ordain prayer, but it's up to man's free will to choose to pray. Can man's prayer cause God to do something, that in the normal process of human history, would not have happened, but because man prayed, God caused something to happen?

We probably should hope not!

The privilege of petitioning God should not be viewed as a blank check, nor is the primary purpose of prayer to persuade God to do our will like a genie. Rather, in prayer we should express our agreement with the perfect will of God. As 1 John 5:14 says, “if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.”

Although agreement with God is not always mentioned (cf. EPH 3:20, JN 16:23), Jesus exemplified this principle when He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane (MT 26:36-46).

Again, we should approach God’s “throne of grace” (HB 4:16) not to ask Him to do some good He otherwise would not do, but rather to remind ourselves of His presence and that He is the source of all blessings (JM 1:17).

In order to pray in accordance with God’s will, we must know God’s Word (JN 15:7). Like bread and butter or romantic love and spiritual marriage, prayer and LGW go together. Pray for God’s will to be done.

 

[Rufus]

Just because you allege others are boasting doesn't make it fact. It's just another weak accusation. As is a sinner effectuating his own salvation. I don't see anyone doing either. I just see consistent empty accusations from you.

I don't normally use the "freewill" term since it's really more of a philosophical discussion. I do use "will" and "desire" and "choose" since these words are in the Text. IMO the philosophical discussion is a distraction.

Well, Mr. All-Wise, you're overlooking one itsy bitsy, teeny weeny "factoid": Who effectuates a sinner's salvation: God or the sinner by his free choice? I've asked this question in the past with no takers. Maybe FWs think the Sandman effectuates the salvation of sinners? Or the Man in the Moon? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or Elmer Fudd? Asked differently: The buck stops with whom?

 

[Rufus]

We probably should hope not!

The privilege of petitioning God should not be viewed as a blank check, nor is the primary purpose of prayer to persuade God to do our will like a genie. Rather, in prayer we should express our agreement with the perfect will of God. As 1 John 5:14 says, “if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.”

Although agreement with God is not always mentioned (cf. EPH 3:20, JN 16:23), Jesus exemplified this principle when He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane (MT 26:36-46).

Again, we should approach God’s “throne of grace” (HB 4:16) not to ask Him to do some good He otherwise would not do, but rather to remind ourselves of His presence and that He is the source of all blessings (JM 1:17).

In order to pray in accordance with God’s will, we must know God’s Word (JN 15:7). Like bread and butter or romantic love and spiritual marriage, prayer and LGW go together. Pray for God’s will to be done.

Except of course when it comes to praying to God to actually and efficaciously save souls of sinners. That's a whole different can of worms, isn't it?

 

[studier]

You love the Darkness of Ignorance, don't you? Once again, you ignore the order of phrases in the above passage. See...here's the $64. question: Did the 7,000 not bow to Baal because God "reserved them" OR...did God "reserve" the 7,000 because they didn't bow a knee to Baal? You're clearly operating under the assumption that it's the latter situation. And how can God claim any credit whatsoever for "reserving them" or for "leaving them in Israel" when it was the self-effectuating choice of the 7,000 to not worship Baal?

BTW, don't you know that Faith is a gift of God? Could it be that this gift accounts for why the 7,000 didn't worship Baal?

Faith isn't a gift as you think it is. I'm sure this has been discussed in 10,000 posts and I'm sure you repeat the same errors, but feel free to provide your Scriptural study of every verse analyzed in context.

The order of phrases is not what you allege no matter how many times you ignore instruction re: Hebrew and Greek outlining and grammatical markers.

Looking at 1K19 the LXX word for "leave" is future tense, so God will leave (alive) the 7,000 men who had not bowed the knee to Baal. This is actually a better translation:

NAS 1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."​

​

The 7,000 had not bowed to Baal, so God will leave them alive.​

​

It looks like Paul changes the language to apply to his time:

NAS Romans 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."​

​

All these verbs are aorist which is timeless, but the reading seems clearly to be that men did not bow to Baal, so God kept these men for Himself. Paul will apply this to himself and others who believe the Gospel and turn to the Lord.​

​

Your problem is again your unbiblical concept of the TULIP tradition and the incorrect belief that fallen men cannot retain belief in God and choose Him over false gods, which is precisely what these 7,000 men did. Obviously, Paul carries this same concept into his time and compares himself and others to the 7,000.

No $64 for you.

 

[PaulThomson]

The free delivery part? Or...if you took the fridge with you, the free help you received from store employees loading up your vehicle?

Good. And which part/s are grace? Is there a exact correspondence between the parts that are gifts and the parts that are grace? Or is there merely some overlap? Is grace, therefore, same as a gift? Or somewhat different? And how does the distinction, if any, affect the way we understand passages in which these two words are used in scripture? Are we sometimes imposing a false understanding of gift and grace to massage the text into conformity to beloved ideological presuppositions ?

Which parts of Noah's salvation from the flood were grace? Which parts were gifts?And Did Noah's salvation from the flood not require any work on his part?

 

[PaulThomson]

Well, Mr. All-Wise, you're overlooking one itsy bitsy, teeny weeny "factoid": Who effectuates a sinner's salvation: God or the sinner by his free choice? I've asked this question in the past with no takers. Maybe FWs think the Sandman effectuates the salvation of sinners? Or the Man in the Moon? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or Elmer Fudd? Asked differently: The buck stops with whom?

Who effectuated Noah's salvation from the flood? Only God? Only Noah? Or both worked to effectuate the salvation plan God designed. Would Noah have been saved from the flood, if He was a faith alone kind of guy, and eschewed adding works to his faith in order to be saved, lest someone be able to accuse him of being a free-willy and stealing glory from God ?

 

[GWH]

Except of course when it comes to praying to God to actually and efficaciously save souls of sinners. That's a whole different can of worms, isn't it?

I think that is the main thing and clearly God's will.

 

[studier]

Earth calling Mr. Studier -- our resident paragon of all spiritual wisdom. Tell me how your interpretation of 1Ki 19:18 squares with Paul's divinely inspired commentary on this passage -- that he also applies to the Israelites of his day? The text reads:

Rom 11:2-5
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
NIV

Paul clearly drew an analogy between two very distant generations of apostate Jews and remnants of believers, as well. Since during Paul's day (i.e. the "present time" of his writing) there was a "remnant chosen by grace", then this can only mean that the 7,000 who didn't bend the knew to Baal remained faithful to God because they, too, were chosen by grace! But of course, you'll likely pervert Paul's teaching by claiming that God chose the 7,000 by grace AFTER those 7,000 made a "freewill" decision to chose Him first, right?

Also in FWT, how could Paul have written in v. 5 above what he did, since this insipid heresy of yours requires belief that the remnant of God, throughout the ages, chose him first? Paul should have written, "So too, at the present time there is a remnant who will come to their senses and choose God." But, alas, the text doesn't read that way, does it?

Just continual ____ against the wall for others to clean up. I was in a restaurant yesterday and saw the mess left by some very unruly very young kids who were not contained by their parents. I thought of you. But I let someone else clean it up.

The answer to this election of grace is found by first seeing that the elect are the same who God made His Plan for in Rom8 - those who [would] love God. When Paul gets to Rom11 and speaks of the 7,000 Remnant he ties that to himself and other Jews who believe the Gospel. The elect are the ones who love God and loving God in context is the same as not bowing to Baal. As Paul proceeds in Rom11 he'll bring in the concept of unbelief.

Again, FWT is your terminology. I don't use it. It's a side-show used by you and others to divert.

God makes Himself known. Some men chose to believe in Him and not bow to false Gods. God made a Plan for such who would love Him. God chose to work with them and rejected those who reject Him. Faith is recorded from Abel onward. You've got a real problem overlooking this Biblical Truth.

Loose the unscriptural concepts within the "T". It's not that tough.

 

[John146]

We probably should hope not!

The privilege of petitioning God should not be viewed as a blank check, nor is the primary purpose of prayer to persuade God to do our will like a genie. Rather, in prayer we should express our agreement with the perfect will of God. As 1 John 5:14 says, “if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.”

Although agreement with God is not always mentioned (cf. EPH 3:20, JN 16:23), Jesus exemplified this principle when He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane (MT 26:36-46).

Again, we should approach God’s “throne of grace” (HB 4:16) not to ask Him to do some good He otherwise would not do, but rather to remind ourselves of His presence and that He is the source of all blessings (JM 1:17).

In order to pray in accordance with God’s will, we must know God’s Word (JN 15:7). Like bread and butter or romantic love and spiritual marriage, prayer and LGW go together. Pray for God’s will to be done.

God told Hezekiah to set his house in order because he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed and God answered his prayer, allowed Hezekiah to live and added 15 more years to his life.

Shall I give more examples? Pray matters.

If my wife has cancer, I’m asking God to heal her.

 

[studier]

Well, Mr. All-Wise,

Mr. Studier is fine, or even just studier, or even Knows Scripture better than Rufus (like an Indian name). All-Wise is a bit much but I appreciate the gesture of respect.

you're overlooking one itsy bitsy, teeny weeny "factoid": Who effectuates a sinner's salvation: God or the sinner by his free choice? I've asked this question in the past with no takers. Maybe FWs think the Sandman effectuates the salvation of sinners? Or the Man in the Moon? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or Elmer Fudd? Asked differently: The buck stops with whom?

Back to effectual again. The content concerns me - you're losing it. Take a nap and recharge. Tomorrow's another day and one day this craziness ends...

 

[Rufus]

Faith isn't a gift as you think it is. I'm sure this has been discussed in 10,000 posts and I'm sure you repeat the same errors, but feel free to provide your Scriptural study of every verse analyzed in context.

The order of phrases is not what you allege no matter how many times you ignore instruction re: Hebrew and Greek outlining and grammatical markers.

Looking at 1K19 the LXX word for "leave" is future tense, so God will leave (alive) the 7,000 men who had not bowed the knee to Baal. This is actually a better translation:

NAS 1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."​

​

The 7,000 had not bowed to Baal, so God will leave them alive.​

​

It looks like Paul changes the language to apply to his time:

NAS Romans 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."​

​

All these verbs are aorist which is timeless, but the reading seems clearly to be that men did not bow to Baal, so God kept these men for Himself. Paul will apply this to himself and others who believe the Gospel and turn to the Lord.​

​

Your problem is again your unbiblical concept of the TULIP tradition and the incorrect belief that fallen men cannot retain belief in God and choose Him over false gods, which is precisely what these 7,000 men did. Obviously, Paul carries this same concept into his time and compares himself and others to the 7,000.

No $64 for you.

Paul did more than than. He made an analogy between the two periods of time! Why did you omit v. 5 from the above passage!? How dishonest of you!

Rom 11:5
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
NIV

The Gr. term (Strong's 3779) rendered "so too" in the NIV is referring back to the preceding verse! It means, "likewise", or "in this way", or "in this fashion", or "in this manner", or "after this manner", or "even so". Paul is not only applying the OT passage to his day, but he is actually making a commentary on the 1Ki 19 text. He actually shed light on the OT passage! Even the very literal Darby translation picks this idea up:

Rom 11:5
5 Thus, then, in the present time also there has been a remnant according to election of grace.
Darby

Ditto for the YLT:

Rom 11:5
5 So then also in the present time a remnant according to the choice of grace there hath been;
YLT

And ditto for the KJV:

Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

And the NASB reads:

Rom 11:5
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
NASB

Therefore, since God during Paul's day, had a remnant of believing Jews according to His sovereign choice -- not according to the remnant's choice -- then logically this must have been true back in Elijah's day. And I will most certainly take Paul's word for this over yours!

Also, your "future tense" argument for 1Ki 19:18 is lame. Let's add some context:

1 Kings 19:14-18
14 He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away." 15 And the Lord said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus. And when you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael to be king over Syria. 16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint to be king over Israel, and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint to be prophet in your place. 17 And the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael shall Jehu put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha put to death. 18 Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
ESV

Verse 18 is in the future tense (if the LXX is accurate) because the apostates had not yet been punished. So, all God is saying is that the 7,000 of the faithful who were contemporary with Elijah, He will leave in the land. The rest, though, would perish by the sword through God's righteous judgment by either one of the two kings mentioned in the text or by Elijah's successor Elisha!

So, again, according to Paul's commentary, the 7,000 faithful were faithful because God graciously chose them, just like He has chosen a remnant of Jews by the same sovereign grace in Paul's day.

No 0.64 cents for your lame reply. Such a pity that Rom 11:5 doesn't read: "... there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to their choice to believe the gospel". And I guarantee you that if this passage had that kind of sense embedded into it, you would be on v.5 like white on rice to make your case for the 1Ki 19 passage, instead of ignoring it.

 

[Rufus]

Mr. Studier is fine, or even just studier, or even Knows Scripture better than Rufus (like an Indian name). All-Wise is a bit much but I appreciate the gesture of respect.



Back to effectual again. The content concerns me - you're losing it. Take a nap and recharge. Tomorrow's another day and one day this craziness ends...

What's the matter? Why are you stalling? Do you need to sleep on it to try to come up with an intelligent, rational answer? You can't tell us WHO effectuates every sinner's salvation? I mean it has to be either God or the sinner, right?

P.S. Or are you just too ashamed to admit publicly that you are a staunch believer in Tooth Fairies, after all? Or maybe you just don't know scripture nearly as well as you think?

 

[PaulThomson]

God told Hezekiah to set his house in order because he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed and God answered his prayer, allowed Hezekiah to live and added 15 more years to his life.

Shall I give more examples? Pray matters.

If my wife has cancer, I’m asking God to heal her.

Your wife might find these resources encouraging and useful. I have.

https://www.awmi.net/video/series/healing-journeys/

https://www.awmi.net/audio/

 

[PaulThomson]

What's the matter? Why are you stalling? Do you need to sleep on it to try to come up with an intelligent, rational answer? You can't tell us WHO effectuates every sinner's salvation? I mean it has to be either God or the sinner, right?

P.S. Or are you just too ashamed to admit publicly that you are a staunch believer in Tooth Fairies, after all? Or maybe you just don't know scripture nearly as well as you think?

No. It could be both. Who effectuated Noah's salvation from the flood? Only God/ Only Noah? Or a lot from God and a bit from Noah. Why must it be one or the other. That's the false dichotomy fallacy. Have you read anything on recognising logical fallacies yet. Keep posting. You could collect the whole set.

 

[PaulThomson]

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

If I have 100 dollars and use a business coach so that 100 dollars to make 10,000 dollars, the fruit of my business coaches input is more capital. It is not logical to argue that because the 500 was made with the help of the coach, the coach must have given me the seed 100 dollars, and must have just given me the 500 dollars. It just does not follow.

Nor does it follow that, if the fruit of the Holy Spirit, as I follow His lead, is greater works of faith, that the seed faith must been given to me by the Holy Spirit and the greater faith was simply given to me by Him too.The language does not require that conclusion.

 

[PaulThomson]

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Being given may mean to be to be delegated to do something, to be granted to do it, or to be permitted to do it, or to be enabled to do it.
Salvation and reconciliation with God comes by putting one's faith in Jesus, i.e. believing on him. This believing on Him is enabled by hearing the gospel, believing which saves one. If God allows people to hear the gospel and does not prevent them for understanding it, but grants to each to decide whether they will believe it, then God has given, granted or allowed them to believe. If God then allows enemies of the gospel to persecute believers, he has also given, granted, or allowed them to suffer on behalf of Christ. Nothing here shouts or whispers that the faith of a believer is given in the same way as one gives someone a watch or a hat.