Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Sep 29, 2024
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The issue should not be what you think of me but what is the best interpretation of GW,
so when you have good reason to think ill of that understanding, I hope you will post further.
Sad to say, i currently won't be looking to you for advice on that. Not saying that's a forever thing but at the moment, i 'm mulling over a few questions about you in my mind. EDIT: Cheers for saying the last part, have had loads of positive discussion with many here but this thread has attracted some really silly trolls. You seem rather friendly with them from my pov but of course, i'm looking askance at this thread full stop now.

That will change when i get more info about who's who and so on.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Sad to say, i currently won't be looking to you for advice on that. Not saying that's a forever thing but at the moment, i 'm mulling over a few questions about you in my mind. EDIT: Cheers for saying the last part, have had loads of positive discussion with many here but this thread has attracted some really silly trolls. You seem rather friendly with them from my pov but of course, i'm looking askance at this thread full stop now.

That will change when i get more info about who's who and so on.
Well, I try to be friendly with everyone, but perhaps it would help if you do not view what I say as advice
but as a way of harmonizing Scripture, which is how I view it as a lifelong learner and truthseeker
(although I would advise simply ignoring the trolls :^)

However, if you have any questions about me, please feel free to ask.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Well, I try to be friendly with everyone, but perhaps it would help if you do not view what I say as advice
but as a way of harmonizing Scripture, which is how I view it as a lifelong learner and truthseeker
(although I would advise simply ignoring the trolls :^)

However, if you have any questions about me, please feel free to ask.
Not one of those who easily takes umbrage or holds grudges GWH but the trolling/other abuse of my post is blatant. Understand your being friendly, i'm warm and chatty myself but don't be naive. Your actions are clearly encouraging them to persist, which very possibly isn't your intention but is uncertain to me currently.

The issue must be sorted, when it is, i'll be able to reassess. i'm really cosy changing my mind when newer info suggests it's worth doing.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
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Rejection of God is the first sin and primary issue.
Such sin is finite and thus would not justify infinite punishment,
although Hitler's would last longer than a teenager in Mongolia in 700 B.C.
who only had general revelation.
Rejection of God and putting self interest first is what gives birth to sin. When you reject reality (God) and create your own false reality, you have fallen into evil. This is why demon possession and mental health issues look similar. Both are a form of insanity, they just come from different sources.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.

Sin is what one does after they have rejected God. That rejection is unending hence, the punishment is unending.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Not one of those who easily takes umbrage or holds grudges GWH but the trolling/other abuse of my post is blatant. Understand your being friendly, i'm warm and chatty myself but don't be naive. Your actions are clearly encouraging them to persist, which very possibly isn't your intention but is uncertain to me currently.

The issue must be sorted, when it is, i'll be able to reassess. i'm really cosy changing my mind when newer info suggests it's worth doing.
Okay, I will try to be more aware of encouraging trolling.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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This is a straw man point of view which i have answered many times throughout this thread. Like your misinterpretation of free will, it would be understandable if i misinterpreted all the many posters, who like you, have posted the same question over and over. I'm sick and tired of answering it and my answer being ignored, however, most of the comments are from trolls wanting to derail the thread.

Will ask if i can sticky a comment to counter such activities, or that the thread be deleted. However, for now, yet again free will is the ability to execute decisions and actions without restraint/limitation, choice is the ability to choose between possible options, it doesn't have the agency involved in free will.

Unlike many here, i too believe although we don't have the agency/free will to save ourselves, we are capable of choosing to love God, who then sets out salvation in progress. I'm seriously sick and tired of the silliness on my post, might be best to request its deletion.
I just got here yesterday so I can hardly help it if you have grown tired of discussing the subject previous to that. It appears that you are planning on getting me censored if I do not desist in raising such questions even though I have never said anything offensive to you personally. This reminds me of how Calvin ran the Consistory. If are burned out on this subject then perhaps it is time to close this thread. Your claim that I am offering a straw man does not hold. A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction. How can I have done this when I never went into any detail. My point was how the Ante-Nicene Writers understood the term "free will" and, since you did not address that I would say you are the one who has offered up a "straw man."

To define any term we have to understand the way the term was understood when it was in active use. Otherwise our definition might be anachronistic. You have so emphasized the word FREE in FREEWILL that it seems to mean I can act without ANY LIMIT or CONSTRAINT WHATSOEVER. Humans cannot be perfectly righteous and enter the Kingdom THAT way. However, we are called to repent and believe which are not "good works" that EARN entry but they are but the necessary conditions we must meet before we can enter into a covenant with God.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Rejection of God and putting self interest first is what gives birth to sin. When you reject reality (God) and create your own false reality, you have fallen into evil. This is why demon possession and mental health issues look similar. Both are a form of insanity, they just come from different sources.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.

Sin is what one does after they have rejected God. That rejection is unending hence, the punishment is unending.
No, human rejection ends at death/Judgement Day (HB 9:27), after which souls in hell reap what they sowed (RM 2:5-11),
perhaps in accordance with the principle of eye for eye (MT 5:38, RM 12:19).
 
Sep 29, 2024
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I just got here yesterday so I can hardly help it if you have grown tired of discussing the subject previous to that. It appears that you are planning on getting me censored if I do not desist in raising such questions even though I have never said anything offensive to you personally. This reminds me of how Calvin ran the Consistory. If are burned out on this subject then perhaps it is time to close this thread. Your claim that I am offering a straw man does not hold. A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction. How can I have done this when I never went into any detail. My point was how the Ante-Nicene Writers understood the term "free will" and, since you did not address that I would say you are the one who has offered up a "straw man."

To define any term we have to understand the way the term was understood when it was in active use. Otherwise our definition might be anachronistic. You have so emphasized the word FREE in FREEWILL that it seems to mean I can act without ANY LIMIT or CONSTRAINT WHATSOEVER. Humans cannot be perfectly righteous and enter the Kingdom THAT way. However, we are called to repent and believe which are not "good works" that EARN entry but they are but the necessary conditions we must meet before we can enter into a covenant with God.
Yours isn't a name that leaps to mind for me, so doubt you've been much of a problem, if at all. Any further posts like the one above and i'll reassess you negatively but you're not on my list currently.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I just got here yesterday so I can hardly help it if you have grown tired of discussing the subject previous to that. It appears that you are planning on getting me censored if I do not desist in raising such questions even though I have never said anything offensive to you personally. This reminds me of how Calvin ran the Consistory. If are burned out on this subject then perhaps it is time to close this thread. Your claim that I am offering a straw man does not hold. A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction. How can I have done this when I never went into any detail. My point was how the Ante-Nicene Writers understood the term "free will" and, since you did not address that I would say you are the one who has offered up a "straw man."

To define any term we have to understand the way the term was understood when it was in active use. Otherwise our definition might be anachronistic. You have so emphasized the word FREE in FREEWILL that it seems to mean I can act without ANY LIMIT or CONSTRAINT WHATSOEVER. Humans cannot be perfectly righteous and enter the Kingdom THAT way. However, we are called to repent and believe which are not "good works" that EARN entry but they are but the necessary conditions we must meet before we can enter into a covenant with God.
Welcome to CC. I agree with your understanding of Scripture/GW. I have sponsored several threads including the Kerygma/GRFS, in which I explain the difference between the Gospel/kerygma and secondary doctrines as follows:

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime.

A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Notice that the kerygma/Gospel fulfills and supersedes OT revelation, but does not contradict its correct interpretation (HB 8:6-13). However, the NT revelation of GRFS will never become obsolete (PHP 2:9-11, RV 22:12-13). Thus, new revelations from God’s Holy Spirit will not contradict the Gospel, although they may express its truth in a different way or form, or else God would be inconsistent or tricky. There may be new wine skins, but no new wine (MT 19:17). Post-NT inspiration must be didachaic information regarding contemporary moral or political issues.

The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).

A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
 
Sep 2, 2020
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We may have a fallen nature but which sin are we guilty of.

What law have we broken? What sin have we committed that makes us guilty of death?
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭

“For the wages of sin is death;

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
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No, human rejection ends at death/Judgement Day (HB 9:27), after which souls in hell reap what they sowed (RM 2:5-11),
perhaps in accordance with the principle of eye for eye (MT 5:38, RM 12:19).
So you think when the unbelievers are raised and stand before the Great White Throne they will all change their minds and accept the Lord as their Saviour? Or maybe x time in the lake of fire will change their mind? Do you think if there was any chance of those who go to the l.o.f. would at some point repent and believe, the Lord would banish them there forever?

Those in the lake of fire aren't reaping what they sowed, they are being given exactly what they wanted, no God.

The wages of sin is not eternal punishment, it is death. Christ paid that price on the Cross. The lake of fire is reserved for those who will never repent and believe.

The OP has argued that volition is the source of both choice and agency (power) but it is not the source of power. Even God's power is not sourced from His will but from His Word. If power came from volition then no-one would go to the lake of fire because God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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So you think when the unbelievers are raised and stand before the Great White Throne they will all change their minds and accept the Lord as their Saviour? Or maybe x time in the lake of fire will change their mind? Do you think if there was any chance of those who go to the l.o.f. would at some point repent and believe, the Lord would banish them there forever?

Those in the lake of fire aren't reaping what they sowed, they are being given exactly what they wanted, no God.

The wages of sin is not eternal punishment, it is death. Christ paid that price on the Cross. The lake of fire is reserved for those who will never repent and believe.

The OP has argued that volition is the source of both choice and agency (power) but it is not the source of power. Even God's power is not sourced from His will but from His Word. If power came from volition then no-one would go to the lake of fire because God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
No, the opportunity to repent also ends on Judgment Day.

No, the purpose of punishment is to achieve justice, not force conversion.

The consequence of wanting no God is reaping the wrath of God.

Numerous Scriptures teach that ungodly souls go to hell, but few describe it as the LOF.

Christ atoned for sins, but sinners must accept God's grace.

God's Word communicates His will and describes His power to humans.

GW teaches that He loves everyone and wills for all to learn the Gospel and be saved
but also that He allows souls to ignore/reject/disbelieve Him.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Yes, rejection of God/Christ is the first and primary SIN,
and saints are forgiven their sins as they strive for moral perfection,
but the souls who reject Christ are finite and thus just punishment is finite.
This understanding is good because it harmonizes divine love with hell.
whereas the view you shared does not by saying God is not free to destroy as well as create souls.
What you need is a good dose of sound in depth exegetical teachings that present the Greek tenses.

As is? You are merely functioning from a willful desire that is according to what you would wish it to be.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting
and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16
That is exactly why many will learn to steer clear of a sound doctrinal teacher.
It insults them in their self righteous desires for how they assume reality has to be.


Only a few who are humble enough to accept and will find it.


For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3


So be it.........
 
Oct 19, 2024
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What you need is a good dose of sound in depth exegetical teachings that present the Greek tenses.

As is? You are merely functioning from a willful desire that is according to what you would wish it to be.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting
and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16
That is exactly why many will learn to steer clear of a sound doctrinal teacher.
It insults them in their self righteous desires for how they assume reality has to be.


Only a few who are humble enough to accept and will find it.


For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3


So be it.........
I just cited 2TM 3:15-17 somewhere, and since you just did so here, I have no need to dose us again--
and I have no idea why you made the critical remark. If you have a better way to harmonizes divine love
with hell, please share it.
(I agree that 4:3 is good, too :^)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Re "i too believe although we don't have the agency/free will to save ourselves, we are capable of choosing to love God, who then sets out salvation in progress":
I believe the emphasis of the debate has been misplaced!
It has nothing to do with free will.

Here is what the infamous TULIP vs Arminianism argument misses.

It does not matter that we do not have the free will to save ourselves.
(the following detail always gets obscured in the heat of the debate)

For, even if we have free will?
I would not matter!

Because, we do not have the ABILITY to save ourselves.

Someone else with the ability to save us, did so.
He only asks for us to accept His offer for us to have it apply to our life.

If it did not require our recognition of the work of the Cross?
Then God could save us, and might not even let us know that He did.

Mull that one over, please.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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I just cited 2TM 3:15-17 somewhere, and since you just did so here, I have no need to dose us again--
and I have no idea why you made the critical remark. If you have a better way to harmonizes divine love
with hell, please share it.
(I agree that 4:3 is good, too :^)

You keep making "love paramount."

The resolving issue in salvation (and condemnation) does not concern Love.
It has everything to do with God's Justice, not love.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
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GW teaches that He loves everyone and wills for all to learn the Gospel and be saved
but also that He allows souls to ignore/reject/disbelieve Him.
Which means His power to save is not in His will but His word.

I don't think we are on the same page. You keep arguing against things I am not saying. I have a feeling there might be things you believe that I have never heard of, like the lake of fire is not the end punishment for unbelievers? Maybe you think that, I don't know? :confused:

The time for repentance ends but the rejection doesn't, this is why they are eternally separated. They can never, ever be allowed into the fold. The fire constantly strips away the falsehoods unbelievers use now to justify their unbelief so they are forever facing the truth of their willful rejection of God.