ARE YOU PRE-TRIB, MID-TRIB, PRE-WRATH, OR POST-TRIB?
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I am wondering if the key to understanding the timing of the rapture is more about understanding when the tribulation begins. It is vital that we understand that the harpazo is firstly an escape from his wrath in my opinion but the great tribulation is supposed to be unlike anything we have ever seen or will again so technically is prewrath also a pretrib view? if his wrath is the great tribulation that is, or if the great tribulation is just a series of very bad events?
I think thats a good observation often even if someone’s reading Jesus own words about a subject they’ll still reject that it’s correct or true probably for that reason among others
“I believe that the reason the Pre-Trib rapture is primarily taught in the churches is because, this is what is taught in the seminaries and even if the pastors later learn that this view may not true, they don't want to deviate from what they were taught because”
yes the institution is corrupt we were forewarned but the world is looking to the institution rather than Gods word
“preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV
It’s crazy but if you look at scripture all Satan has ever done is confuse and lie about what God has said and this destroys mankind again and again from Eden to revelation we continually hear what God said will save us but then Satan snatches it away from our heart and we walk on
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
Luke 8:11-12 KJV
satan has never changed his tactic he’s always trying to get mans mjnd away from what god said will bless us and give us life
all points of doctrine are under assault in the same way . Pre trib post trib argument is just an example . In the end our doctrine should begin with Jesus explaining these things then the apostles writings fit perfectly and make great sense like a foundation and a building that sits on it
“I believe that the reason the Pre-Trib rapture is primarily taught in the churches is because, this is what is taught in the seminaries and even if the pastors later learn that this view may not true, they don't want to deviate from what they were taught because”
yes the institution is corrupt we were forewarned but the world is looking to the institution rather than Gods word
“preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV
It’s crazy but if you look at scripture all Satan has ever done is confuse and lie about what God has said and this destroys mankind again and again from Eden to revelation we continually hear what God said will save us but then Satan snatches it away from our heart and we walk on
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
Luke 8:11-12 KJV
satan has never changed his tactic he’s always trying to get mans mjnd away from what god said will bless us and give us life
all points of doctrine are under assault in the same way . Pre trib post trib argument is just an example . In the end our doctrine should begin with Jesus explaining these things then the apostles writings fit perfectly and make great sense like a foundation and a building that sits on it
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Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. However, at the end of the Trumpet judgments it clearly states in Rev 9:21 that NO ONE REPENTED. And, at the end of the Bowl/Vial Judgments in Rev 16:11 it also states that NO ONE REPENTED. This is why I don't believe that the purpose of God's wrath which includes the Trumpet and Bowl/Vial judgments is not for the purpose to bring sinners to repentance. It states over and over that those who are receiving these judgments are "evil doers", whom the Lord knew would never repent, so this is their punishment. And then again, the reason I believe that the Wrath of God begins at the opening of the 6th seal is because in verse 17, those witnessing these horrible events cry out in fear and proclaim that God's wrath HAS begun, " Why would Jesus include this statement in the prophesy if it is not true?
Ever consider the relationship and nature of seven seals , seven trumpets and seven vials ?
instead of seeing them as linear successive events try overlaying them regarding thier purpose and use
The seals are holding closed the book no one has ever read before that’s in gods right hand
the trumpets sound announces those things that were unsealed and sent forth. From Gods throne
and the vials are showing us when those things are poured out into earth and are fulfilled
For instance the fort four seals are opened and we see the four horsemen riding out from heaven and purpose is being announced as they do
“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
Revelation 6:7-8 KJV
but they haven’t killed anyone yet it’s just telling us the purpose of these four riders
Later we see them again as angels being restrained notice after they ride out in the next chapter we see the delay and n them beginning to act upon tbier commission to destroy and kill
“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
Revelation 7:1-3 KJV
Even later we see them set loose and beginning to destroy upon earth
the seals trumpets and vials are different aspects of the same things the seals are in heaven Gods judgements and declarations , the prophets then announced his plans and judgements like trumpets declaring things to earth and then the vials are when they are coming to pass on the earth . It’s why you see for instance this so early on
“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
Revelation 6:12-14, 16-17 KJV
Bit later is when that comes to pass at the judgement
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”
Revelation 20:11 KJV
instead of seeing them as linear successive events try overlaying them regarding thier purpose and use
The seals are holding closed the book no one has ever read before that’s in gods right hand
the trumpets sound announces those things that were unsealed and sent forth. From Gods throne
and the vials are showing us when those things are poured out into earth and are fulfilled
For instance the fort four seals are opened and we see the four horsemen riding out from heaven and purpose is being announced as they do
“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
Revelation 6:7-8 KJV
but they haven’t killed anyone yet it’s just telling us the purpose of these four riders
Later we see them again as angels being restrained notice after they ride out in the next chapter we see the delay and n them beginning to act upon tbier commission to destroy and kill
“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
Revelation 7:1-3 KJV
Even later we see them set loose and beginning to destroy upon earth
the seals trumpets and vials are different aspects of the same things the seals are in heaven Gods judgements and declarations , the prophets then announced his plans and judgements like trumpets declaring things to earth and then the vials are when they are coming to pass on the earth . It’s why you see for instance this so early on
“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
Revelation 6:12-14, 16-17 KJV
Bit later is when that comes to pass at the judgement
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”
Revelation 20:11 KJV
Two key items that are critical to understanding end-times chronology:
- When does the DotL begin - Joel 2:31 explicitly says that the DotL will be preceded by the sign in the skies:
"The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. "
Jesus says this happens after the GT in Matt 24:29 (and Mark 13:24)
"“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "
This means that the GT is NOT part of the DotL. Since we know that the GT starts after the AoD at the midpoint fo the 70th week, the DotL cannot start until sometime in the second half of the 70th week, or perhaps at the end of the 70th week.
These scriptures are explicitly clear.
- There is confusion on defining 'coming' - It's because there are actually 2 different words in the Greek that are translated as 'coming'. First is 'erchomai' that means simple movement from one place to another. The second is 'parousia' and means arrival and ongoing presence.
The difference is critical to understanding and proper interpretation. In short, there are multiple 'erchomais' within the one 'parousia'. Jesus comes (erchomai) at the rapture, He comes (erchomai) to the Mt of Olives, He comes (erchomai) to Bozrah, He comes (erchomai) to Mt Zion, etc. All of these are events within the overall evernt known as the Second 'Parousia' of Christ.
The 2nd Coming is not a single event at one moment in time - it is a series of events that takes place over a period of time.
[/QUOTE]
Iron sharpens iron...so let's continue.
You said:
I said,
"There's no space of time there. All the seals show what will happen in the future. None of the events happen when Christ opens them. It's that simple."
The 6th seal describes events of the 7th trump from the perspective of the unsaved. Those events do not occur any where near the opening of the 6th seal.
Do you agree with those statements? I'm trying to see where we agree and disagree on the seals.
Iron sharpens iron...so let's continue.
You said:
I said,
"There's no space of time there. All the seals show what will happen in the future. None of the events happen when Christ opens them. It's that simple."
The 6th seal describes events of the 7th trump from the perspective of the unsaved. Those events do not occur any where near the opening of the 6th seal.
Do you agree with those statements? I'm trying to see where we agree and disagree on the seals.
They aren't targets of his wrath so the rapture isn't about escaping wrath at all. It is a gathering of surviving saints from all over the world. The purpose is to get all these people to one place to meet Christ and join his army that he has with him. These people are made immortal BERFORE they are raptured so even if they were on Earth, none of God's wrath would even harm them. That's why the rapture doesn't help them escape anything, because they aren't targets nor can they be harmed by anything. They simply need to get together and to also meet up with Jesus.
I also hold the view that the rapture is God getting His people off the earth BEFORE He pours out His wrath on the unbelievers who are left behind. Jesus even said to His disciples in Matthew 24:22, as He was describing the events that would occur prior to His return. "And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect (Believers) those days will be cut short." After the Believers are raptured, first the dead in Christ, then those who are alive, then the Lord places the 144,000 in a safe place, some scholars believe this may be Petra, THEN the Lord pours out His wrath on the unbelievers, beginning with the opening of the 6th in Rev 6:12, the seven trumpet judgments, the the seven bowls or vial judgments.
There is a difference between the 7-year tribulation period (or what is also called the 70th week of Daniel) and what Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:21 as the "great tribulation". The "great tribulation" begins when the Antichrist appears (Jesus refers to the Antichrist as the Abomination of Desolation) at the 3-1/2 year mark, or in the middle of the 7-year tribulation period. The "great tribulation" is described in Chapter 13 as the time the Antichrist rules over the entire earth and requires that all people receive his "mark" (666) in order to buy or sell; otherwise, they are killed. This is why Jesus cuts the time of His return short; otherwise, there would be no humans left. This "great tribulation" period lasts for 42 months, which is the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation period. We know this because Rev 13:5, "and authority to act (rule) for forty-two months was given to him." So, this means that the rapture, then God's wrath takes place during this same period of time.
There is a difference between the 7-year tribulation period (or what is also called the 70th week of Daniel) and what Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:21 as the "great tribulation". The "great tribulation" begins when the Antichrist appears (Jesus refers to the Antichrist as the Abomination of Desolation) at the 3-1/2 year mark, or in the middle of the 7-year tribulation period. The "great tribulation" is described in Chapter 13 as the time the Antichrist rules over the entire earth and requires that all people receive his "mark" (666) in order to buy or sell; otherwise, they are killed. This is why Jesus cuts the time of His return short; otherwise, there would be no humans left. This "great tribulation" period lasts for 42 months, which is the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation period. We know this because Rev 13:5, "and authority to act (rule) for forty-two months was given to him." So, this means that the rapture, then God's wrath takes place during this same period of time.
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You need to understand that I look at End Times prophecy in 'event' terms. And, in 'event' terms, the 'Wrath of God' is the 'Vials' - no more and no less.
If you want to think of the 'Trumpet' events as being some kind of 'wrath' from God - okay, but - in 'event' terms, they come before the 'Wrath of God'.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Every 'event' has a beginning and an end.
The '[great] tribulation' has a beginning and an end.
The 'Trumpet' events have a beginning and an end.
The 'Wrath of God' has a beginning and an end.
The Bible shows us the beginning and ending of each of these.
In terms of being events - the three are defined, separate, and do not overlap.
It is not a matter of "Is it something that God [ultimately] causes to happen that brings misery to someone?"; rather, it is a matter of "Does it take place during the 'event' as the Bible defines it?"...
The only thing that is a "God, in His fierce anger"
type of wrath is the 'Vials'. The 'Trumpet' events are not part of the 'Wrath of God' - they are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.
The 'Trumpet' events are brought into existence by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony.
They are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.
If you want to think of the 'Trumpet' events as being some kind of 'wrath' from God - okay, but - in 'event' terms, they come before the 'Wrath of God'.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Every 'event' has a beginning and an end.
The '[great] tribulation' has a beginning and an end.
The 'Trumpet' events have a beginning and an end.
The 'Wrath of God' has a beginning and an end.
The Bible shows us the beginning and ending of each of these.
In terms of being events - the three are defined, separate, and do not overlap.
It is not a matter of "Is it something that God [ultimately] causes to happen that brings misery to someone?"; rather, it is a matter of "Does it take place during the 'event' as the Bible defines it?"...
The only thing that is a "God, in His fierce anger"
type of wrath is the 'Vials'. The 'Trumpet' events are not part of the 'Wrath of God' - they are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.The 'Trumpet' events are brought into existence by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony.
They are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger"
event - which is the 'Vials'.
You need to understand that I look at End Times prophecy in 'event' terms. And, in 'event' terms, the 'Wrath of God' is the 'Vials' - no more and no less.
If you want to think of the 'Trumpet' events as being some kind of 'wrath' from God - okay, but - in 'event' terms, they come before the 'Wrath of God'.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Every 'event' has a beginning and an end.
The '[great] tribulation' has a beginning and an end.
The 'Trumpet' events have a beginning and an end.
The 'Wrath of God' has a beginning and an end.
The Bible shows us the beginning and ending of each of these.
In terms of being events - the three are defined, separate, and do not overlap.
It is not a matter of "Is it something that God [ultimately] causes to happen that brings misery to someone?"; rather, it is a matter of "Does it take place during the 'event' as the Bible defines it?"...
The only thing that is a "God, in His fierce anger" type of wrath is the 'Vials'. The 'Trumpet' events are not part of the 'Wrath of God' - they are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.
The 'Trumpet' events are brought into existence by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony.
They are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.
If you want to think of the 'Trumpet' events as being some kind of 'wrath' from God - okay, but - in 'event' terms, they come before the 'Wrath of God'.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Every 'event' has a beginning and an end.
The '[great] tribulation' has a beginning and an end.
The 'Trumpet' events have a beginning and an end.
The 'Wrath of God' has a beginning and an end.
The Bible shows us the beginning and ending of each of these.
In terms of being events - the three are defined, separate, and do not overlap.
It is not a matter of "Is it something that God [ultimately] causes to happen that brings misery to someone?"; rather, it is a matter of "Does it take place during the 'event' as the Bible defines it?"...
The only thing that is a "God, in His fierce anger"
type of wrath is the 'Vials'. The 'Trumpet' events are not part of the 'Wrath of God' - they are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger" event - which is the 'Vials'.The 'Trumpet' events are brought into existence by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony.
They are not part of the "God, in His fierce anger"
event - which is the 'Vials'.
If you look through my lens of thinking that "would have been saved" is just the same as saying, "would have believed (in His Grace)" then you could see why I think that the rapture is post-trib and that post-trib is synonymous with pre-wrath. And that, "but for the sake of the elect, those days shall be cut short" would mean that, "if anyone can manage to believe even in such conditions, even then anyone's tribulation can be 'cut short' so that these are those experience a 'micro-rapture', i.e. these are 'left' rather than 'taken' (where the vultures gather). But those who take the mark, those who can never be saved, have effectively denied that anyone can save them from the 'almighty' beast, and so have offered themselves, ultimately, to share in its eternal judgment by unbelief in The Lord's Salvation.
It might help if you took a good look at my chart to see if it makes any sense to you - before continuing...?
Take your time. Don't rush. Look carefully.
I believe you are missing something in your understanding of the scope of that verse. I thought for sure I had explained it well enough in previous posts - maybe not...?
I believe there is some truth in the 'God's wrath started right after the resurrection' part of your statement. However, with regard to the rest of it - that is not what it is saying - everything in the 6th seal description does not happen in a singular-moment 'event'; rather, it takes place over a period of time. You are trying to see it as being "all at once" - but, it is not...
The statement is true - within the context of the true meaning of the prophecy.
I have explained it - in previous posts.
Perhaps, I am the only person you know who has the proper understanding...
Take your time. Don't rush. Look carefully.
I believe you are missing something in your understanding of the scope of that verse. I thought for sure I had explained it well enough in previous posts - maybe not...?
I believe there is some truth in the 'God's wrath started right after the resurrection' part of your statement. However, with regard to the rest of it - that is not what it is saying - everything in the 6th seal description does not happen in a singular-moment 'event'; rather, it takes place over a period of time. You are trying to see it as being "all at once" - but, it is not...
The statement is true - within the context of the true meaning of the prophecy.
I have explained it - in previous posts.
Perhaps, I am the only person you know who has the proper understanding...
