What is a church?
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You simply cite pet verses at face value without properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. This is how contradictions happen which culminate in salvation by works.
In 2 Peter 3:16, Peter acknowledges that some of Paul's writings are not easily understood and Peter goes on to warn against those who are unlearned and undtable and twist these passages to their own destruction.
The Bible is not merely a text book that we come to understand solely through human intelligence. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
In 2 Peter 3:16, Peter acknowledges that some of Paul's writings are not easily understood and Peter goes on to warn against those who are unlearned and undtable and twist these passages to their own destruction.
The Bible is not merely a text book that we come to understand solely through human intelligence. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
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It's by so-called "human intelligence" that the simple message of the Bible has been distorted causing division and false teaching.
What does this mean?? What cryptic meaning does it have, or maybe, do you think it just simply means what it says??🤔
Mk 16:15-16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
What does this mean?? What cryptic meaning does it have, or maybe, do you think it just simply means what it says??🤔
Mk 16:15-16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The first half of Mark 16:16 does not negate the second half of the verse and it also does not negate what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) *Hermeneutics.
Notice what God's inspired word says about wisdom of the world, the Spirit of God, the spirit of the world, the natural man and why the gospel is hid to those who do not believe. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 2:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Notice what God's inspired word says about wisdom of the world, the Spirit of God, the spirit of the world, the natural man and why the gospel is hid to those who do not believe. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 2:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
I understand PERFECTLY! It's very clear what this scripture says. You have a false message, and when confronted with a simple scripture with a simple message, you balk at it and evade answering the only answer the scripture teaches because your preconceived ideas and beliefs conflict with the scripture.
Belief + baptism = salvation!
Belief + baptism = salvation!
You don't understand. You have a false message of whoever is not baptized will be condemned when Jesus NEVER said that. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well (Mark 16:16) yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.
What does, "BS", mean?
Try not to get over excited DJT_47.
John's water baptism preceded the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It certainly looks like the baptism that Jesus initiated below fulfilled the water baptism.
Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John is declaring that water baptism was merely a shadow baptism.
The water baptism is a physical baptism, an outward and public baptism; a declaration that you believe in Jesus.
Where as the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a spiritual baptism. An internal baptism that Jesus performs
on each of us to confirm, that God recognizes us as true believers.
Anyone can undergo a physical baptism but not everyone will experience a baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Do you see the difference between a public ritual and the living water baptism in the Holy Spirit?
Try not to get over excited DJT_47.
John's water baptism preceded the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It certainly looks like the baptism that Jesus initiated below fulfilled the water baptism.
Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John is declaring that water baptism was merely a shadow baptism.
The water baptism is a physical baptism, an outward and public baptism; a declaration that you believe in Jesus.
Where as the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a spiritual baptism. An internal baptism that Jesus performs
on each of us to confirm, that God recognizes us as true believers.
Anyone can undergo a physical baptism but not everyone will experience a baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Do you see the difference between a public ritual and the living water baptism in the Holy Spirit?
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If your interested here is what AI had to say on this topic, water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Yes, John the Baptist himself makes it clear that his water baptism was only a shadow of the greater baptism that Jesus would bring:
Matthew 3:11 (also in Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8, John 1:33)
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John openly declares that his water baptism is temporary and preparatory, while Jesus’ baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is the true, transformative reality. This suggests that John's baptism was only a shadow of the spiritual reality that Christ would bring.
Did the Early Church Confuse the Two Baptisms?
The New Testament presents a transition period where both water baptism and Spirit baptism are mentioned together. The early church continued practicing water baptism, but there are signs that some did not fully grasp the distinction between the shadow and the true baptism:
Acts 19:1-6 – The Ephesian Disciples
Paul encounters some disciples who had only received John’s baptism:
"...Paul said, ‘John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.’ On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying."
The New Testament suggests that John’s water baptism was a foreshadowing of the greater baptism of the Holy Spirit. While the early church continued water baptism, there are indications that some may not have fully distinguished between the shadow (water) and the reality (Spirit). Paul, in particular, emphasizes the spiritual baptism over the physical act, suggesting that the true fulfillment of John’s prophecy is receiving the Holy Spirit, not being dunked in water.
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It certainly looks as though the early church misunderstood the deeper spiritual reality of everything.
Would you be surprised that the early church was confused?
Given the history of the church it would seem that they derailed very early on.
Paul's letters are a testament to how shallow the understanding of spiritual things were.
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Yes, John the Baptist himself makes it clear that his water baptism was only a shadow of the greater baptism that Jesus would bring:
Matthew 3:11 (also in Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8, John 1:33)
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John openly declares that his water baptism is temporary and preparatory, while Jesus’ baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is the true, transformative reality. This suggests that John's baptism was only a shadow of the spiritual reality that Christ would bring.
Did the Early Church Confuse the Two Baptisms?
The New Testament presents a transition period where both water baptism and Spirit baptism are mentioned together. The early church continued practicing water baptism, but there are signs that some did not fully grasp the distinction between the shadow and the true baptism:
Acts 19:1-6 – The Ephesian Disciples
Paul encounters some disciples who had only received John’s baptism:
"...Paul said, ‘John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.’ On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying."
- This shows that John’s water baptism was incomplete. True baptism was receiving the Holy Spirit.
- Acts 10:44-48 – Cornelius and Gentiles Receive the Spirit Before Water Baptism
While Peter preaches, the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles before they are water baptized:
"Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"- Here, the real baptism (Spirit baptism) happens first. The water baptism seems to be a later outward sign rather than the actual means of receiving the Spirit.
- 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 – Paul Minimizes Water Baptism
Paul distances himself from water baptism:
"...Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."- If water baptism were central to the faith, why would Paul make this statement? This suggests that the true baptism was the Spirit, not water.
- Romans 6:3-4 – Baptism into Christ’s Death
Paul describes baptism as a spiritual union with Christ’s death and resurrection:
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"- This sounds more like Spirit baptism than a physical act of water immersion.
The New Testament suggests that John’s water baptism was a foreshadowing of the greater baptism of the Holy Spirit. While the early church continued water baptism, there are indications that some may not have fully distinguished between the shadow (water) and the reality (Spirit). Paul, in particular, emphasizes the spiritual baptism over the physical act, suggesting that the true fulfillment of John’s prophecy is receiving the Holy Spirit, not being dunked in water.
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It certainly looks as though the early church misunderstood the deeper spiritual reality of everything.
Would you be surprised that the early church was confused?
Given the history of the church it would seem that they derailed very early on.
Paul's letters are a testament to how shallow the understanding of spiritual things were.
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If you believe you will be obedient and do what else is required and commanded of you. If you don't believe, what else is there to do?? Not a thing. You walk away. Saul (Paul) believed but yet he was told what else he had to do, and he followed through and was obedient. Had he not believed when encountered by the Lord, he would have done no more. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 requires obedience to the gospel.
And the Mark 16 scripture cited explicitly links belief with baptism. They are intertwined and linked together by the conjunction "and" making them, both conditions, inseparable. One is conditioned by the other. You can't believe only and be saved nor can you be baptized if you don't believe. Your belief requires your confession of your belief (Romans 10:8-10, and also as demonstrated by the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8). The scripture speaks for itself and can't be explained away by a bunch of BS.
And the Mark 16 scripture cited explicitly links belief with baptism. They are intertwined and linked together by the conjunction "and" making them, both conditions, inseparable. One is conditioned by the other. You can't believe only and be saved nor can you be baptized if you don't believe. Your belief requires your confession of your belief (Romans 10:8-10, and also as demonstrated by the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8). The scripture speaks for itself and can't be explained away by a bunch of BS.
The moment we believe we are saved. Luke 8:12 - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Obedience which "follows" is "works" and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
There are plenty of "nominal" or pseudo-Christians who may believe "mental assent" in the existence of Jesus and also in certain historical facts about Jesus but do not truly believe in Him unto salvation. (Matthew 7:22-23) Instead of walking away altogether and not associating with anything at all related to God, these folks still seek to live a morally upright life hoping their works will save them. Such folks are what I call, "religious, but not right with God." Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration. Do you realize how many false religions and cults there are in the world today that all CLAIM to be Christian?
Acts 9:6 - So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Suffering for the Lord's sake was what Paul must do. If Paul rejected the Lord, then he would have done no more, but that was not the case.
Salvation by works is not obedience to the gospel. We obey the gospel choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
The second clause clarifies the first, but he who does not believe will be condemned. Belief and baptism are not intertwined and linked together by the conjunction "and" in Mark 16:16(b) and baptism is not even mentioned by Jesus in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) so your argument about both belief and baptism being conditions for salvation, inseparable is moot.
False. What happened to baptism in Mark 16:16(b) and in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and numerous other passages of scripture?
Again, we are saved the moment we believe (Luke 8:12; John 3:18; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..) before water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Also, there are many folks who have been water baptized but do not truly believe in Jesus unto salvation, although they believe in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus. These folks get baptized because they believe they must be baptized in order to be saved. Check it off the list. If a person does not believe in Jesus at all, hence is an atheist, then of course, they would not be baptized. I do know multiple people though who were at one time baptized in a church that taught salvation by works (my wife and I included) who were not genuine saved believers at that time and only did it because we were all trusting in baptism as a work for salvation (check it off the list) but later came to saving belief in Jesus and were re-baptized and this time as genuine believers.
Confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and not a work for salvation that follows believing unto righteousness. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord upon conversion and after. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
So, mere mental assent belief (1. Believe) plus moral self-reformation (2. Repent) plus lip service confession (3. Confess) plus water baptism (4. Be baptized) according to your 4-step plan of salvation (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) does not result in salvation. You reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe and left out saving belief in Christ.
The gospel that is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES (Romans 1:16) speaks for itself and cannot be explained away by a bunch of BS that culminates in salvation by works. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)
There are plenty of "nominal" or pseudo-Christians who may believe "mental assent" in the existence of Jesus and also in certain historical facts about Jesus but do not truly believe in Him unto salvation. (Matthew 7:22-23) Instead of walking away altogether and not associating with anything at all related to God, these folks still seek to live a morally upright life hoping their works will save them. Such folks are what I call, "religious, but not right with God." Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration. Do you realize how many false religions and cults there are in the world today that all CLAIM to be Christian?
Acts 9:6 - So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Suffering for the Lord's sake was what Paul must do. If Paul rejected the Lord, then he would have done no more, but that was not the case.
Salvation by works is not obedience to the gospel. We obey the gospel choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
The second clause clarifies the first, but he who does not believe will be condemned. Belief and baptism are not intertwined and linked together by the conjunction "and" in Mark 16:16(b) and baptism is not even mentioned by Jesus in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) so your argument about both belief and baptism being conditions for salvation, inseparable is moot.
False. What happened to baptism in Mark 16:16(b) and in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and numerous other passages of scripture?
Again, we are saved the moment we believe (Luke 8:12; John 3:18; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..) before water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Also, there are many folks who have been water baptized but do not truly believe in Jesus unto salvation, although they believe in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus. These folks get baptized because they believe they must be baptized in order to be saved. Check it off the list. If a person does not believe in Jesus at all, hence is an atheist, then of course, they would not be baptized. I do know multiple people though who were at one time baptized in a church that taught salvation by works (my wife and I included) who were not genuine saved believers at that time and only did it because we were all trusting in baptism as a work for salvation (check it off the list) but later came to saving belief in Jesus and were re-baptized and this time as genuine believers.
Confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and not a work for salvation that follows believing unto righteousness. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord upon conversion and after. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
So, mere mental assent belief (1. Believe) plus moral self-reformation (2. Repent) plus lip service confession (3. Confess) plus water baptism (4. Be baptized) according to your 4-step plan of salvation (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) does not result in salvation. You reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe and left out saving belief in Christ.
The gospel that is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES (Romans 1:16) speaks for itself and cannot be explained away by a bunch of BS that culminates in salvation by works. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)
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The church of Christ (which DJT_47 is a member of) does a really good job of indoctrinating their members and convincing them that it's their way or the highway, so his response was no surprise. I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ and witnessed this first hand. I also had a similar experience with the Roman Catholic church which I was born and raised in. These folks think they are guardians of the truth which only they have. It's a pride issue.
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