Will The Actual Calvinists Here Please Stand Up?
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I was wrong about the number of references to Christian in the NT. I was too trusting of Bible Hub. My apologies.
I still think the word Christian is valid. Peter certainly used it. Some scholars believe that because Peter used the word, it was considered acceptable. 1 Peter was probably written around AD 64, so there was a good deal of time for the use to be common by the second century.
I don't know what you mean by Roman tradition. The real corruption of Christianity came about when Constantine made Christianity acceptable and worse, when Theodosius made it the state religion.
I still think the word Christian is valid. Peter certainly used it. Some scholars believe that because Peter used the word, it was considered acceptable. 1 Peter was probably written around AD 64, so there was a good deal of time for the use to be common by the second century.
I don't know what you mean by Roman tradition. The real corruption of Christianity came about when Constantine made Christianity acceptable and worse, when Theodosius made it the state religion.
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The tradition was to call followers of philosophers after the name of the philosopher. So the people in Antioch just followed tradition when they labeled the believers as “Christians”.
Peter’s use of it was specific to persecution. He was saying “Even when they persecute you as a “Christian” don’t lose heart: they are associating you with Him.” This is my paraphrase that captures the meaning of his encouragement to believers who would suffer.
The issue with “Christian” is many-fold. It’s not just that it’s derived from a Roman tradition, also, it’s that Christ is more than a philosopher or teacher. He came not to show us different rules for life, but He actually made a way, by His own sacrifice, into the presence of God. He changes our being and nature, not just our doing. Moreso, the power He wields is not of the mind but of the Spirit.
Sorry, I’m on an iPhone. I might add more when I get back from my travels.
Blessings
Peter’s use of it was specific to persecution. He was saying “Even when they persecute you as a “Christian” don’t lose heart: they are associating you with Him.” This is my paraphrase that captures the meaning of his encouragement to believers who would suffer.
The issue with “Christian” is many-fold. It’s not just that it’s derived from a Roman tradition, also, it’s that Christ is more than a philosopher or teacher. He came not to show us different rules for life, but He actually made a way, by His own sacrifice, into the presence of God. He changes our being and nature, not just our doing. Moreso, the power He wields is not of the mind but of the Spirit.
Sorry, I’m on an iPhone. I might add more when I get back from my travels.
Blessings
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For the first 400+ years of history all orthodox Christians affirmed that mean are capable of making moral choices and that they become a part of God's plan by their consent and willingness to submit to the Spirit. Nowadays many call that WORKS although in the Bible Paul's use of the word WORKS meant legalistic works OF THE LAW which were thought to be meritorious and necessary to EARN salvation. Martin Luther was hung up on the same FALSE DICHOTOMY because he had experienced the same thing in the Catholic system
True, but my question was, "Are there parts of Calvinism that are true and NOT problematic?"
I seem to remember that there are, but I have not considered that question for forty years
before encountering this Calvinist clique on CC, so I am foggy regarding the answer
(and I haven't googled it yet :^)
I seem to remember that there are, but I have not considered that question for forty years
before encountering this Calvinist clique on CC, so I am foggy regarding the answer
(and I haven't googled it yet :^)
I Googled for you. 
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
I Googled for you.
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
who affirms the parts in agreement with the kerygma,
but not the problematic TULIP part?"
(Let me know what google says about that :^)
I also suggest we consider the opponents of Calvanism can be so because they are Arminian.
Also,I copied this article because it supports the historic record I referenced early on.
That the tenets of Calvinism pre existed the teaching of John Calvin.
It is pasted so to give opportunity to read the material in the event some may be reluctant to open a link.
And there is more to be gleaned at the link from comments posted to the article.
So Is Calvinism Consistent With What The Early Church Fathers Believed?
Historic Christianity has with stood fallacies and aberrant teachings from the days of the Apostles and early church fathers to the modern day. What is refuted in one generation makes a subtle comeback in the next dressed in more alluring language with all garb and fanfare. Michael Horton tackles the theology of the early church fathers so well in his book Putting Amazing Back into Grace. I would gladly like to share an excerpt that I came across courtesy of T. Scott Morgan (Warranted Faith):
The ubiquity of Arminianism in the modern evangelical church can make it difficult for some to seriously consider the possibility of the truth of an alternate doctrinal system such as Calvinism. However, this over-sensitivity toward Arminian theology is not a result of a discovery of its own alleged truth.
Rather, it demonstrates only how easily heresy can spread and gain legitimacy in a culture and church that is by and large theologically illiterate, apathetic, and ignorant of the historical Christian faith.
It’s not uncommon in the internet world to encounter those who would like to associate the origin of Calvinism with the great Reformer, John Calvin.
In truth, little more than the modern name of this theological system originated with Calvin.
Calvinism, as it has come to be called, is simply a nickname for historical Christianity. ”Calvinism” and “Arminianism” are only modern labels of the same issues that the church has always been dealing with.
While the “5 Points of Calvinism” did not develop until the need to produce a concise response during the 17th century conflict with the Arminian Remonstrance, the truths declared in these points were largely believed by those who denounced the great heresies, and have always been accepted and cherished by some portion of the Christian Church from its beginning.
What follows are sample quotations from early Church fathers who supported these doctrines of grace.
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak.”
Ignatius (A.D. 110): “They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual…Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners…No good thing dwells in us…For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit…Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God…He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life…Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold…Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly.”
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself…Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness…There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord…Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect…”
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation.”
Ignatius: “To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father…”
Justin Martyr: “In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 198): “God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life…Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever.”
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not [an earthly] place, but the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church…If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election…You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood.”
Cyprian (A.D. 250): “This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach.”
Ambrose Of Milan (A.D. 380): “In predestination the Church of God has always existed.”
Also,I copied this article because it supports the historic record I referenced early on.
That the tenets of Calvinism pre existed the teaching of John Calvin.
It is pasted so to give opportunity to read the material in the event some may be reluctant to open a link.
Shared under the permissions granted through Fair Use.
Source:
https://atwistedcrownofthorns.com/2...-with-what-the-early-church-fathers-believed/
The link, read more here, does not open. However, I find the TU part of TULIP and the history of pre-Calvin church fathers is a useful start in the study of pre-Calvinist teaching.Source:
https://atwistedcrownofthorns.com/2...-with-what-the-early-church-fathers-believed/
And there is more to be gleaned at the link from comments posted to the article.
So Is Calvinism Consistent With What The Early Church Fathers Believed?
Historic Christianity has with stood fallacies and aberrant teachings from the days of the Apostles and early church fathers to the modern day. What is refuted in one generation makes a subtle comeback in the next dressed in more alluring language with all garb and fanfare. Michael Horton tackles the theology of the early church fathers so well in his book Putting Amazing Back into Grace. I would gladly like to share an excerpt that I came across courtesy of T. Scott Morgan (Warranted Faith):
The ubiquity of Arminianism in the modern evangelical church can make it difficult for some to seriously consider the possibility of the truth of an alternate doctrinal system such as Calvinism. However, this over-sensitivity toward Arminian theology is not a result of a discovery of its own alleged truth.
Rather, it demonstrates only how easily heresy can spread and gain legitimacy in a culture and church that is by and large theologically illiterate, apathetic, and ignorant of the historical Christian faith.
It’s not uncommon in the internet world to encounter those who would like to associate the origin of Calvinism with the great Reformer, John Calvin.
In truth, little more than the modern name of this theological system originated with Calvin.
Calvinism, as it has come to be called, is simply a nickname for historical Christianity. ”Calvinism” and “Arminianism” are only modern labels of the same issues that the church has always been dealing with.
While the “5 Points of Calvinism” did not develop until the need to produce a concise response during the 17th century conflict with the Arminian Remonstrance, the truths declared in these points were largely believed by those who denounced the great heresies, and have always been accepted and cherished by some portion of the Christian Church from its beginning.
What follows are sample quotations from early Church fathers who supported these doctrines of grace.
TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak.”
Ignatius (A.D. 110): “They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual…Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners…No good thing dwells in us…For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit…Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God…He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life…Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold…Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly.”
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself…Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness…There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord…Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect…”
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation.”
Ignatius: “To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father…”
Justin Martyr: “In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 198): “God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life…Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever.”
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not [an earthly] place, but the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church…If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election…You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood.”
Cyprian (A.D. 250): “This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach.”
Ambrose Of Milan (A.D. 380): “In predestination the Church of God has always existed.”
Augustine (A.D. 380): “Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, ‘You did not choose Me, but I chose you’ (John 15:16).” Read More Here.
I Googled for you.
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
I don’t think anyone has responded to your poll. So, why don’t you go first, I will then follow your example by completing the poll as well.
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