If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
- Thread starter PaulThomson
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I discovered that well after my name was being used for quite some time...
I was surprised.
Usage: The Hebrew word "genez" refers to a place where valuable items are stored or hidden.
It conveys the idea of a repository or a treasury, often used in the context of storing wealth
or precious items. In the biblical context, it can also imply the hidden or secret nature of these treasures.
My first name is Gene.Thanks for reminding me.
- that the angels long preexisted man - Job 38:7
- that God does not create in vain - Isaiah 45:18
Neither of those say that the angels long pre-existed man. They may have done so, bit where does scripture say they did so.
when the foundations of the earth were made, and it's cornerstone set, the angels were there watching, and rejoiced.
this is clearly before the plants, animals or mankind were created.
Job 38:4-7
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me,] if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
There were tree days before plants were created. Why couldn't they have been created with the heavens on day 2, Gen 1:8
because they were already present when the earth had not yet been created, before Genesis 1:2 and somewhere in Genesis 1:1
So you have become my official antagonist now?
And all I did was to point you to someone who is a seasoned qualified teacher who taught Greek students the art and science of exegesis.
That's gratitude for you...
As it is.....
Take it slow with him.
That is in English, not Hebrew or Greek.
He can't play exegesis games with that when we understand English.
Job 38 speaks of the foundations of the planet earth. And?
It says that angels were watching its formation with celebration!
..... but that does not mean that angels existed before man?He should drop his resentment when his sense of self-importance is being challenged by God via us simple folk.
I don't disagree with what you have said here but the simple reading of the Isaiah text sounds like he was in heaven when he fell (sinned), not on earth which is what you were suggesting.
Where would He have put them? There was no dry land or atmosphere until the end of Day 2.
And, as best as I can understand, God did not create the plants on Day 3 but rather commanded the earth to produce them which, suggests to me they already existed, but like many seeds, were waiting patiently buried beneath the ground until the right conditions for their sprouting were met.
in Job, God makes him confess that he has been going to and fro on earth
I believe he was on earth when he fell.
On the old prehistoric earth.
He was resenting God placing him in such an inferior environment with only animals to tend to.
He felt highly over qualified and much too good for the job.
That is when he desired in his heart to ascend above the clouds to seat himself on the Lord's rightful throne.
"I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:14
Not only to sit on the throne...
But, to replace Him!
How?
The desire equalled murder in his heart.
Assassination and the grabbing of power that was the Lord's alone!
You claimed -
sawdust said:
Then why does it say he fell from heaven? It sounds misleading to me if he was on the earth when he fell.
The scriptures are perfectly coherent if we believe Job, that at the time of Job satan had access to heaven and earth. He presented himself before God in heaven and had been roaming to and from upon the earth. At some point in time after that, during one of his sojourns into heaven, satan was cast out of heaven down to the earth and at the time of Paul writing Ephesians 2:2, satan was being called "the prince of the powers of the air/atmosphere". So, he seems to have had his ability to traverse the universe curtailed, at some time and had become confined to living within the bounds of the ionosphere. I am suggesting this happened immediately after Jesus had been resurrected and lifted into heaven to appear before God as the firstfruit offering (Zec. 3).
So, it is disingenuous to imply that, if satan was on the earth at the time of Job, he cannot have been cast out of heaven after the time of Job.
Now, whether angels pre-existed Gen. 1:2, or were created during Gen. 1:6-8 is irrelevant to resolving the question of when Satan must have fallen from his glory as Lucifer to his inglorious rebellion as Satan. I am agnostic as to when angels were created. It does ot matter to me when that was. Scripture does not specifically tell us, as far as I can see. My point is that, regardless of when angels were created, satan had access to heaven and earth in Job's day, but there is no record of satan accessing God's throne room after Jesus resurrection, as foreseen in the vision of Zechariah recorded in Zec. 3. It makes sense that once the Lamb had been offered and accepted as full payment for the sins of the world, there would be no point in his appearing before God to accuse any human being of sin. And the heavenly precincts of God's throne would have been permanently cleansed of any and all demonic presence by the blood of the returned perfect Lamb.
OT prophecy often uses the perfective verb form to describe future events. The NT also often uses the past and aorist tenses to describe future events.
He could put them in the heaven he had just made. I am quite OK with the possibility that angels were made before Gen.1:1. I am simply pointing out that we are not told that is the case, so any argument that relies on assuming that, is purely suppositional, not biblically factual. The supposition could be correct, but we cannot prove it is correct based on the revelation we presently have.