Loss of salvation???

[studier]

As I can't see into your heart, my understanding of your motivation is based on your words. I gave my impressions of that. So I'll start saying...it seems to me. And it seems to me that you prefer to deal with God on the basis of your actions and not on the basis of what He has done and continues to do.

I don't see your responses as judgmental. I believe you are earnest in your pursuit of God and in your desire to help others do the same. I simply believe your emphasis is wrong. You seem to focus on obedience rather than relationship. While obedience is part of relationship, a real and vital relationship dwarves mere obedience.
When I wake up in the morning I don't think about a list of chores my wife wants me to get to. I simply want to spend time with her. The same goes with God. I awake with a desire to get into my Father's presence. Simply to be near to Him. So I do the things He has said will bring that about. This of course is obedience, but my goal isn't obedience but renewing my relationship; afresh entering into the presence of God.

Thanks. I don't think you're reading me correctly and I don't think we're that much different in respect to what you've said. The simple point I think is that from what I see, I'm a very devoted student of His Word in Christ in Spirit and I take His Word as He states it. From day one His guidance for me has been to awake early and be in prayer and study for hours upon hours daily for years that became decades. He cleared the decks for me professionally and placed me in this process.

I've also been around many whose approach is much more "spiritual" IOW they pursue some form of "relationship" apart from His Word and they make things up that are not in accordance with His Word. Apart from His Word in Spirit it's mostly just subjective opinion, feelings and human creativity and chaos.

When He commands us to do something I've always wanted to do just that. I'm fully aware that He's in charge and that it's by His power and enablement that we grow spiritually and at the pace He establishes. There are times and situations for the Abba, Daddy, and times for the Yes, Sir. I don't think any relationship is one dimensional and we all have our personalities and gift(s). Where you may experience the best of that relationship my best and most clearly special times have been sitting at His feet asking Him questions about His Word, His expressed thinking and will. I've also been encountering over the past few years a very enhanced appreciation and amazement at how vast He is in every way as I watch how men seek Him in His creation and how He seems to be playing with them in all of their discoveries.

So, did you see the prescriptive command to endure?

 

[studier]

Understood. My experience with the numerous works-based salvationists out there has been that they firmly believe they have to endure in order to retain their salvation, which shows the lack of thinking to its logical conclusion about salvational endurance.

That inevitably leads to works-based salvation that they cannot define by any means because scripture gives to us no distinct line over which one must allegedly cross in order to lose one's salvation. It simply isn't there. That also calls into serious question the efficacy of that seal upon us by Holy Spirit, for it makes that seal utterly subjective and therefore based upon our own strength to retain it.

In other words, if one must expend effort to hold on to salvation, then it's no longer a gift if it can be lost so easily. That, then, calls into question our being saved because it too would have to be based upon our efforts, thus calling into question the efficacy of the Blood of Christ shed for us.

MM

I fully understand the thinking. I think it's a mistake to classify as works-based salvationists as broadly as it is being done.

 

[studier]

Calling it purity instead of maturity makes no difference, but don't you agree with the difference in 1CR 15?
I hope that I am more mature today than I was yesterday or fifty years-worth of days ago, but I sense no
qualitative transformation comparable to being raptured or resurrected.

I don't see 1Cor15 as the same discussion as the quality vs. quantity of faith-obedience.

The quality of spiritual maturity and experiential purity IMO is a different discussion than the qualitative difference of flesh vs. resurrection bodies. If anything, if the spiritual body is better quality than the fleshly, then the spiritual condition is better than the quality of the fleshly condition.

 

[BillyBob]

If God did indeed choose us, if the Holy Spirit did indeed renew our hearts, if Christ did indeed die that we may live – are we then able to undo his work and walk away? Can we thwart the very work of God on our behalf?
If we have such power, why do we even need God at all?

Just asking!

 

[studier]

If God did indeed choose us, if the Holy Spirit did indeed renew our hearts, if Christ did indeed die that we may live – are we then able to undo his work and walk away? Can we thwart the very work of God on our behalf?
If we have such power, why do we even need God at all?

Just asking!

I guess it depends on how much value He places on human will. Since He allowed the entire creation to fall based upon His providing for and allowing the will of man to decide, it seems to me man's will is important to Him in His relationship with mankind and His plans for eternity.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I guess it depends on how much value He places on human will. Since He allowed the entire creation to fall based upon His providing for and allowing the will of man to decide, it seems to me man's will is important to Him in His relationship with mankind and His plans for eternity.

why would anyone will to walk away from salvation and Christ.

Unless they never truly experienced christ

 

[Magenta]

I guess it depends on how much value He places on human will. Since He allowed the entire creation to fall based upon His providing for and allowing the will of man to decide, it seems to me man's will is important to Him in His relationship with mankind and His plans for eternity.

How much value God places on the human will is highly questionable since those who do not submit to the will of God suffer the second death.

 

[BillyBob]

I guess it depends on how much value He places on human will. Since He allowed the entire creation to fall based upon His providing for and allowing the will of man to decide, it seems to me man's will is important to Him in His relationship with mankind and His plans for eternity.

A pathetic answer at best!

 

[Musicmaster]

I fully understand the thinking. I think it's a mistake to classify as works-based salvationists as broadly as it is being done.

I'm willing to reconsider if you can convince me as to why it's not works-based when anyone adds anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day. Paul made no mention of anything whatsoever added to faith in those elements in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Some have tried to say that Paul didn't include water baptism in that section because it was allegedly understood by those people.

That latter item gives ample indication of their gross lack in understanding, again, the resulting impacts of their silly assumptions. Paul was writing for posterity, and a topic as important as salvation is not one he would have toyed around with my leaving any necessary element on a topic of this importance. It's so sad to read about the beliefs of so many that applies such horrid twists and shadows of doubt upon scripture in order to justify their beliefs rather than to read scripture for what it says. The practice of allegorizations has so many practicing tragic violence upon the scriptures they read.

MM

 

[Cameron143]

Thanks. I don't think you're reading me correctly and I don't think we're that much different in respect to what you've said. The simple point I think is that from what I see, I'm a very devoted student of His Word in Christ in Spirit and I take His Word as He states it. From day one His guidance for me has been to awake early and be in prayer and study for hours upon hours daily for years that became decades. He cleared the decks for me professionally and placed me in this process.

I've also been around many whose approach is much more "spiritual" IOW they pursue some form of "relationship" apart from His Word and they make things up that are not in accordance with His Word. Apart from His Word in Spirit it's mostly just subjective opinion, feelings and human creativity and chaos.

When He commands us to do something I've always wanted to do just that. I'm fully aware that He's in charge and that it's by His power and enablement that we grow spiritually and at the pace He establishes. There are times and situations for the Abba, Daddy, and times for the Yes, Sir. I don't think any relationship is one dimensional and we all have our personalities and gift(s). Where you may experience the best of that relationship my best and most clearly special times have been sitting at His feet asking Him questions about His Word, His expressed thinking and will. I've also been encountering over the past few years a very enhanced appreciation and amazement at how vast He is in every way as I watch how men seek Him in His creation and how He seems to be playing with them in all of their discoveries.

So, did you see the prescriptive command to endure?

I do believe we are closer in our actions than our words suggest. I still believe your words portray a relationship contingent upon obedience rather than one characterized by obedience. In other words, relationship leads to ongoing and deeper obedience, and not the reverse.

I see 1 Timothy 6:11 as a part of an exhortation of Paul encouraging believers to persevere in the faith. But the list of scripture you gave earlier...Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13, and the verse in Revelation are not commands. They merely describe what is true of those saved. The source of the endurance is not attributed; only that it is characteristic of those who are saved.

 

[Magenta]

A pathetic answer at best!

All flesh is like the grass according to God's Word... except to the free willers.

 

[studier]

Endurance

The question was: Is endurance necessary for salvation?

Another question was: Is endurance commanded of the Christian?

Endurance = Hupomonē: 1. the capacity to hold out or bear up in the face of difficulty, patience, endurance, fortitude, steadfastness, perseverance (BDAG Lexicon)

Since there are other words that mean “patience” I’m going to retain “endurance” as the primary single word definition.

Keeping it simple for now we can discuss any verse{s} we’d like to:

• NKJ 1Tim6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience endurance, gentleness.
  • Paul commands Timothy to pursue – to move rapidly and decisively toward an objective – endurance (among other important things).
  • The command to pursue these things including endurance is part of Paul’s next commands in 1Tim6:12 to fight the good fight [of] the faith, to take hold of eternal life into which you were called.
  • Having this endurance is part of fighting the good fight [of] the faith and taking hold of eternal life.
• NKJ Heb12:1-2 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
  • Our Lord’s enduring the cross led to His being seated at God’s right hand in all authority
  • Our Lord authored and perfected the faith – the full scope of the Gospel we’ve received from Him
  • Now we have an endurance race to run, and we are commanded to run this race based in the faith – the Gospel – with endurance
• NKJ James1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience endurance. But let patience endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
  • This is actually a fairly intricate piece of Scripture with some interesting concepts
  • James informs that the testing of faith produces endurance
    • So there is the concept here of a faith that endures testing – and enduring faith
  • Then James essentially commands to let endurance do its job – to let endurance have its perfect/completed work
  • The result of this process and obeying the command re: endurance is that the Christian may be perfect/complete and whole, lacking in nothing
• NKJ 2Pet1:5-7 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue/moral excellence, to virtue/moral excellence knowledge (gnōsis), 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance endurance, to perseverance endurance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance endurance, to perseverance endurance godliness,
  • Peter’s instruction here is related to the Christian sharing in the divine nature
  • Peter’s command:
    • begins with being diligent meaning: earnest commitment in discharge of an obligation or experience of a relationship, eagerness, earnestness, diligence, willingness, zeal (BDAG)
    • provide:
      • in/by your faith > virtue/excellence of character > knowledge > self-control (restraint of emotions, impulses, desires) > endurance > godliness > brotherly love > love
  • Peter goes on to correlate these things being in abundance to not being idle/worthless nor unfruitful in the working knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ – IOW it takes these things in abundance to be valuable and productive in the working knowledge of our Lord and sharing in the divine nature.

Yes, endurance is specifically commanded in the NC Writings by Paul, Hebrews, James and Peter. Furthermore, it is part of our spiritual life in Christ compared to His endurance on the cross and is correlated to some very important words in regard to who we are in Christ and what we are becoming and doing as Christians. Endurance is a necessary part of our growth to maturity and beyond. There’s good reason it’s commanded.

 

[studier]

why would anyone will to walk away from salvation and Christ.

Unless they never truly experienced christ

Good question. Experientially I cannot imagine doing so which as I recall is your sentiment also.

But our experience and sentiment may well not be universal and there are strong influences and extreme tests, and such things mentioned in Scripture and there are Scriptures that need to be taken into account that some interpret as saying Christians can walk away or rebel from the Faith and change sides.

 

[GWH]

I don't see 1Cor15 as the same discussion as the quality vs. quantity of faith-obedience.

The quality of spiritual maturity and experiential purity IMO is a different discussion than the qualitative difference of flesh vs. resurrection bodies. If anything, if the spiritual body is better quality than the fleshly, then the spiritual condition is better than the quality of the fleshly condition.

Well, I am concerned about judgmental divisiveness by folks who think they are qualitatively superior,
so I recommend being satisfied with quantitative improvement in this life as we strive for unity
regarding the essential Gospel/GRFS--because I have seen little agreement about even that on CC.

 

[studier]

I'm willing to reconsider if you can convince me as to why it's not works-based when anyone adds anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day. Paul made no mention of anything whatsoever added to faith in those elements in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Some have tried to say that Paul didn't include water baptism in that section because it was allegedly understood by those people.

That latter item gives ample indication of their gross lack in understanding, again, the resulting impacts of their silly assumptions. Paul was writing for posterity, and a topic as important as salvation is not one he would have toyed around with my leaving any necessary element on a topic of this importance. It's so sad to read about the beliefs of so many that applies such horrid twists and shadows of doubt upon scripture in order to justify their beliefs rather than to read scripture for what it says. The practice of allegorizations has so many practicing tragic violence upon the scriptures they read.

MM

Again, I'm not jumping into the normal fray of unsubstantiated conclusions either way. Scripture says what it says and I'm willing to sit here until my last breath (dramatic, huh) and go through it word by word and verse by verse apart from anyone's traditions. It's what I do anyway with or without the forum.

Adding anything to Faith is language I've addressed before but it's the basis of the counter argument to Faith Alone - Faith is Never Alone - because many have concluded that Faith Alone became an extreme that ended up lessening Faith into something Faith is not.

FWIW, I don't see 1Cor15 as the Gospel as you do here. I see Paul reminding the Corinthians of a summary of what he taught them, part of which can be seen in his evangelism in Acts13. It's very obvious IMO that in 1Cor15 he's providing his shorthand summary to quickly get to the topical importance of resurrection which is what he really gets into in order to straighten out people's thinking on how important it is to our Faith.

Then when we track Paul's Gospel as he elaborates on it in his writings, he's adding to it himself, let alone what he added to it in Acts13 and to what he said was its only foundation in 1Cor3.

This doesn't really address the works-based charge, but there are plenty of reasons not to accept such charges as they are typically thrown around by some (not necessarily you).

 

[studier]

Well, I am concerned about judgmental divisiveness by folks who think they are qualitatively superior,
so I recommend being satisfied with quantitative improvement in this life as we strive for unity
regarding the essential Gospel/GRFS--because I have seen little agreement about even that on CC.

Meaning what exactly?

This is part of why I'm not fond of this quantitative and qualitative terminology. We have a friend on another thread that habitually uses this type of lingo typically in a seeming effort - intended or not - to blur the discussions.

 

[Genez]

Well, per your view God wasted His time inspiring the sour 16:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Apostates do not lose salvation.
That might anger those who want a tidy and nicely behaved household.
But, as beneficiaries of God, they can lose their inheritance by not fulfilling what is required by the grantor.

If we deny Him now?
He will deny us what would have been special blessing and rewards in eternity.

Read the following to see that what I just said is true!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. ​

​

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames. ​

​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

​

​

........​

 

[studier]

I do believe we are closer in our actions than our words suggest. I still believe your words portray a relationship contingent upon obedience rather than one characterized by obedience. In other words, relationship leads to ongoing and deeper obedience, and not the reverse.

Yet I have no disagreement with what I've underlined so maybe you're not fully understanding me.

I see 1 Timothy 6:11 as a part of an exhortation of Paul encouraging believers to persevere in the faith. But the list of scripture you gave earlier...Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13, and the verse in Revelation are not commands. They merely describe what is true of those saved. The source of the endurance is not attributed; only that it is characteristic of those who are saved.

1Tim6:11 is a command. As are the other commands re: endurance I just posted.

There are other grammatical structures for exhortations and Apostolic summons.

I don't see Jesus's statements as merely describing those who are saved but very specifically saying who will be saved. If I had those words ringing in my ears when the time came, I'd hope to be in deep prayer asking for God's assistance to get me through the coming end whatever that end necessitated. The point seems even more specific and clear in Rev14 as enduring in allegiance to God even to death as necessary.

 

[Cameron143]

Yet I have no disagreement with what I've underlined so maybe you're not fully understanding me.



1Tim6:11 is a command. As are the other commands re: endurance I just posted.

There are other grammatical structures for exhortations and Apostolic summons.

I don't see Jesus's statements as merely describing those who are saved but very specifically saying who will be saved. If I had those words ringing in my ears when the time came, I'd hope to be in deep prayer asking for God's assistance to get me through the coming end whatever that end necessitated. The point seems even more specific and clear in Rev14 as enduring in allegiance to God even to death as necessary.

You might. I would be secure in the knowledge that He who began a good work in me will perform it still.

 

[studier]

You might. I would be secure in the knowledge that He who began a good work in me will perform it still.

Then you would surely be an inspiration to those who ended up eating their children during such times of testing or who got used as firewood and lanterns and such things in history. It's nice to know you and I'd pray for all to be just like you. BTW, there were Apostolic prayers for such endurance which further shows its importance.