Loss of salvation???

[only1God]

And here's the question of the day. What does it mean to believe on/have faith in Jesus? Is it believing he existed? All we have to do is believe he died for our sins? Or is there more to our faith in him than believing the things he did?

there is so much to it .loving God is loving his ways and loving him above everything else.you put off old man because your a new creature in christ

 

[only1God]

there is so much more to it.loving God is loving his ways and loving him above everything else(abraham and isaac) put off old man Ephesians 4:22

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

there is so much more to it.loving God is loving his ways and loving him above everything else(abraham and isaac) put off old man Ephesians 4:22

Welcome to the Christian Chat forums!


🌞

 

[Kroogz]

It is clear by scripture that Christ knew that He was to die and have the sin of many poured out on him. He knew that this was the will of the Father. He knew that none given to him were to be lost. That alone is enough to make even him sweat great drops of blood!
An angel was sent from heaven to strengthen Him for what was about to take place.

Isa 53 :7~~
He was oppressed and afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

The Lord Jesus Christ was not worried or concerned about what HE had to go through. He was concerned about what we possibly have to go through. The Lord Jesus Christ was never concerned About Himself.......He was concerned about US.

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The Lord Jesus Christ sweated blood for His concern for mankind.....Not for what He had to go through for mankind.

 

[Genez]

Then why the physical agony in the garden?

For us, it is nothing.
For we are born sinners.

But for the Son?

To experience being separated from the Father was an agony he never experienced ever before.
And, not only the separation.....

But to know, he was to be plunged into a gigantic septic tank filled with all the feces=sins of all mankind.
Being forced to taste it, filling his lungs, as he was to be drowned (die spiritually) on the Cross.


Imagine someone walking you over to a septic tank with ladle in hand, and force-feeding you it contents?

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels ​

for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that ​

he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9​

Jesus was both horrified and absolutely repulsed by what He was shown that he was to go through to save us.

Sin to us sinners is, "oh, so what?"
But to the pure Son of God?
To come in contact with sin would be a horror show.

When we sin, it is why the Holy Spirit must cease being one with us.
It is why we have 1 John 1:9, as God's provision to restore walking in the Light.

grace and peace .......

 

[GWH]

How can we not?

Indeed, which is why we all need to pray for that spirit to be exorcised from CC
and replaced by agreement to disagree regarding didachaic doctrines as we manifest
divine love and unanimity regarding the essential Gospel/kerygma.

 

[GWH]

And here's the question of the day. What does it mean to believe on/have faith in Jesus? Is it believing he existed? All we have to do is believe he died for our sins? Or is there more to our faith in him than believing the things he did?

Welcome to CC. I also am a truth seeker, and here is the answer to your question I have learned from God's Word:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/God's requirement for salvation in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord”
(as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

 

[GWH]

there is so much more to it.loving God is loving his ways and loving him above everything else(abraham and isaac) put off old man Ephesians 4:22

Welcome to CC. I share your appreciation for Matt.7:7 and your emphasis on reflecting God's love
as we seek to learn more of God's Word beyond the Gospel by sharing our insights,
thereby being renewed in Christ's image (2Tim.3:15-17).
HAND

 

[studier]

Indeed, which is why we all need to pray for that spirit to be exorcised from CC
and replaced by agreement to disagree regarding didachaic doctrines as we manifest
divine love and unanimity regarding the essential Gospel/kerygma.

It's much bigger than CC, GWH. CC and other forums are a microcosm of christendom. Maybe you've also noticed how low is the true orientation to the Word. This has been under discussion in theological circles for ages and those discussing it have foreseen many of the issues that would come from it. I was just reading an article that spoke of walking in Spirit and correlating it to the way Jesus dealt with Law in Matt5. A true walk in Spirit will be creating in us the Law as Jesus spoke of it, e.g. no hate, etc. I think we have much bigger problems than we're aware of. I sensed it about 5+ years ago when I was still teaching, and I was led to make a move again. I'm still trying to understand it.

 

[GWH]

It's much bigger than CC, GWH. CC and other forums are a microcosm of christendom. Maybe you've also noticed how low is the true orientation to the Word. This has been under discussion in theological circles for ages and those discussing it have foreseen many of the issues that would come from it. I was just reading an article that spoke of walking in Spirit and correlating it to the way Jesus dealt with Law in Matt5. A true walk in Spirit will be creating in us the Law as Jesus spoke of it, e.g. no hate, etc. I think we have much bigger problems than we're aware of. I sensed it about 5+ years ago when I was still teaching, and I was led to make a move again. I'm still trying to understand it.

Yes, the problematic spirit has existed from the beginning and prompted both Jesus (in Matt.13:14-15) and Paul (in Acts.28:26-27) to cite Isa.6:9-10 in apparent frustration because of obstinacy, so I guess we will never understand it.

You mentioned other forums, and when CC was down over the weekend I looked for others but did not find anything comparable to CC,
so do you know of any?

 

[studier]

Yes, the problematic spirit has existed from the beginning and prompted both Jesus (in Matt.13:14-15) and Paul (in Acts.28:26-27) to cite Isa.6:9-10 in apparent frustration because of obstinacy, so I guess we will never understand it.

You mentioned other forums, and when CC was down over the weekend I looked for others but did not find anything comparable to CC,
so do you know of any?

Agree. Sent you a private message (see the mail button top right).

 

[BillyBob]

The Lord Jesus Christ sweated blood for His concern for mankind.....Not for what He had to go through for mankind.

Even though Christ is God, He is fully man as well! I believe that He was very troubled for the task that was fast approaching. After all, it did require a brief separation from the Father. We cannot fathom the torment that He must have gone through.

 

[Magenta]

Even though Christ is God, He is fully man as well! I believe that He was very troubled for the task that was fast approaching. After all, it did require a brief separation from the Father. We cannot fathom the torment that He must have gone through.

I agree. When the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is spoken of it is always that which was shed
on the cross for the propitiation of our sins... and not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

John 3 verse 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[BillyBob]

I agree. When the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is spoken of it is always that which was shed
on the cross for the propitiation of our sins... and not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is truly a love beyond measure! How can we as creatures ever understand the greatness of His love for us?

 

[Musicmaster]

In part based upon what we're discussing now re: endurance and maybe other things we could be heading into.

For example, I've posted what Rev14 says about endurance which in essence is enduring in bowing to God even unto death vs. bowing to the beast. If one does not endure in bowing to God and revolts and bows to the beast, does he simply lose rewards?

As I've said, based upon looking at endurance more completely in the Text, I see Jesus' statement re: endure to the end will be saved as being a principle extending beyond that eschatological context.

What Jesus instructed to Israel concerning their future salvation, that does not at all relate to us today before that tribulation. We are sealed by Holy Spirjt right now unto salvation, not to a salvation realized at some point in the future. Notice those texts speaking FUTURE when saying "...shall be saved..." There's a vast difference.

MM

 

[Genez]

Indeed, which is why we all need to pray for that spirit to be exorcised from CC and replaced by agreement to disagree regarding didachaic doctrines as we manifest divine love and unanimity regarding the essential Gospel/kerygma.

You geek guys refuse to get it......

But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words
to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:19
​

Why do you geek guys have this need to boost your self-esteem, by presenting technical language and code
that can be understood by only a few, in a public forum?

But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words
to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.



​

 

[JimiSurvivor]

For us, it is nothing.
For we are born sinners.

But for the Son?

To experience being separated from the Father was an agony he never experienced ever before.
And, not only the separation.....

But to know, he was to be plunged into a gigantic septic tank filled with all the feces=sins of all mankind.
Being forced to taste it, filling his lungs, as he was to be drowned (die spiritually) on the Cross.


Imagine someone walking you over to a septic tank with ladle in hand, and force-feeding you it contents?

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels ​

for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that ​

he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9​

Jesus was both horrified and absolutely repulsed by what He was shown that he was to go through to save us.

Sin to us sinners is, "oh, so what?"
But to the pure Son of God?
To come in contact with sin would be a horror show.

When we sin, it is why the Holy Spirit must cease being one with us.
It is why we have 1 John 1:9, as God's provision to restore walking in the Light.

grace and peace .......

Are you saying that it was the Father who "force fed" the sin of mankind into Jesus mind? Is this the work of the Holy God - to impress on His mind the Satanic consciousness?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

For us, it is nothing.
For we are born sinners.

But for the Son?

To experience being separated from the Father was an agony he never experienced ever before.
And, not only the separation.....

But to know, he was to be plunged into a gigantic septic tank filled with all the feces=sins of all mankind.
Being forced to taste it, filling his lungs, as he was to be drowned (die spiritually) on the Cross.


Imagine someone walking you over to a septic tank with ladle in hand, and force-feeding you it contents?

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels ​

for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that ​

he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9​

Jesus was both horrified and absolutely repulsed by what He was shown that he was to go through to save us.

Sin to us sinners is, "oh, so what?"
But to the pure Son of God?
To come in contact with sin would be a horror show.

When we sin, it is why the Holy Spirit must cease being one with us.
It is why we have 1 John 1:9, as God's provision to restore walking in the Light.

grace and peace .......

These consequences did not come to pass in Gethsemene. Rather, the pain experienced in the garden was due to His anticipation about what would happen at the cross.

 

[Musicmaster]

Again, I'm not jumping into the normal fray of unsubstantiated conclusions either way. Scripture says what it says and I'm willing to sit here until my last breath (dramatic, huh) and go through it word by word and verse by verse apart from anyone's traditions. It's what I do anyway with or without the forum.

Adding anything to Faith is language I've addressed before but it's the basis of the counter argument to Faith Alone - Faith is Never Alone - because many have concluded that Faith Alone became an extreme that ended up lessening Faith into something Faith is not.

FWIW, I don't see 1Cor15 as the Gospel as you do here. I see Paul reminding the Corinthians of a summary of what he taught them, part of which can be seen in his evangelism in Acts13. It's very obvious IMO that in 1Cor15 he's providing his shorthand summary to quickly get to the topical importance of resurrection which is what he really gets into in order to straighten out people's thinking on how important it is to our Faith.

Then when we track Paul's Gospel as he elaborates on it in his writings, he's adding to it himself, let alone what he added to it in Acts13 and to what he said was its only foundation in 1Cor3.

This doesn't really address the works-based charge, but there are plenty of reasons not to accept such charges as they are typically thrown around by some (not necessarily you).

That's tragic to say that Paul was merely summarizing in 1 Cor 15. To essentially accuse him of having left out one element of salvation, that's a level of slaughter that I'm not willing to traverse. I've heard that kind of reasoning from Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses.

No thanks. That's strictly on you. If water baptism unto remission of sins preached to Israel by Peter were still a requirement under grace, then there is no grace, but only works.

Good luck with that. You're going to need it.

MM

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You geek guys refuse to get it......

But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words
to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:19
​

Why do you geek guys have this need to boost your self-esteem, by presenting technical language and code
that can be understood by only a few, in a public forum?

But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words
to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.



​

I do not speak in tongues but by what Paul said I know that tongues, first and foremost, are prayers of the inner spirit. The advantage of tongues is that they are not hindered by our understanding - which makes them useful for self-edification but not for the understanding of others.