The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Apr 7, 2014
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It blows my mind how many people on various Christian forum sites teach salvation by works at the front door and/or back door and also suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. :(

Brings back painful memories for me growing up in the Roman Catholic church. SELF promotion, SELF righteousness, SELF preservation, along with fear and bondage to insecurity makes me sick! :sick:
 

Lamar

Well-known member
May 21, 2023
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It actually is.
It is replacing Christ's obedience (100%) with your own.
And because it known that 100% is not possible, the standard becomes well as long as we try our best.
Would that standard apply to obedience also?

Or is obedience simply not part of the Gospel?

P.S.
No one really "tries" their best.
 

Lamar

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May 21, 2023
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I guess the thief on the cross had a dead faith then.
The thief on the cross?? Talk about grasping at straws.

The thief on the cross card is pulled whenever someone is lacking a cogent response.

The thief on the cross was saved because Jesus said he was saved. Period.

The thief on the cross was under no command to be or do anything! His sins were forgiven because Jesus said so!

Jesus does not need to meet our understanding in order to forgive someone.

The thief on the cross is not an example for us to follow.

BTW, Jesus could have forgiven the sins of both thieves. :eek: That's right, both of them.

Regardless of what they did or did not do.
 

Lamar

Well-known member
May 21, 2023
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It blows my mind how many people on various Christian forum sites teach salvation by works at the front door and/or back door and also suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. :(

Brings back painful memories for me growing up in the Roman Catholic church. SELF promotion, SELF righteousness, SELF preservation, along with fear and bondage to insecurity makes me sick! :sick:
Whatever painful memories of what happen to you as a youth in the Roman Catholic Church is now is your past. Let the scars heal.

Take off your Anti-Catholic glasses and see the Bible without them.

Let God deal with the priests from your past and simply forgive them.
 

Lamar

Well-known member
May 21, 2023
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This is where I struggle to reconcile saying "if you don't do works" (walking-the-walk), then you aren't saved (because you don't believe in Jesus). But then immediately after claim it's "not works based".

It appears that if you believe that works (fruit/walking-the-walk) must be present in order to be a true believer of Christ, then it is, at the very least, partially works based. No? How can these two things be true at the same time?

For this reason, I'm convinced that it is through grace and grace alone we are saved. Making a claim that there should be a metric of works in order to be a true believer would just lead me to ask where that threshold is. As HeIsHere mentioned, was the thief on the cross not saved as there was no works/fruit/walking-the-walk?
Just because someone does not know "where the threshold is" does not in anyway prove that there is no threshold.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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It blows my mind how many people on various Christian forum sites teach salvation by works at the front door and/or back door and also suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. :(

Brings back painful memories for me growing up in the Roman Catholic church. SELF promotion, SELF righteousness, SELF preservation, along with fear and bondage to insecurity makes me sick! :sick:
"Christ starts, I finish" the theology of human pride.

Most Catholics do not know any different and are mostly in an echo chamber, but the members here are exposed to truth and they still argue against the truth.

I highly doubt people who cling to "doctrine of works" are filled with feelings of bondage, they are filled with pride, it gives their life meaning.

Those who actually feel the bondage leave .... some search out and find the truth and some just go and become agnostic or atheist.
This is just my experience with people but I think it has some greater application.

But I very much agree with this sentiment....:sick:
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Whatever painful memories of what happen to you as a youth in the Roman Catholic Church is now is your past. Let the scars heal.

Take off your Anti-Catholic glasses and see the Bible without them.

Let God deal with the priests from your past and simply forgive them.
That was not his point at all.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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This is where I struggle to reconcile saying "if you don't do works" (walking-the-walk), then you aren't saved (because you don't believe in Jesus). But then immediately after claim it's "not works based".

It appears that if you believe that works (fruit/walking-the-walk) must be present in order to be a true believer of Christ, then it is, at the very least, partially works based. No? How can these two things be true at the same time?

For this reason, I'm convinced that it is through grace and grace alone we are saved. Making a claim that there should be a metric of works in order to be a true believer would just lead me to ask where that threshold is. As HeIsHere mentioned, was the thief on the cross not saved as there was no works/fruit/walking-the-walk?
That's a beautiful and profound question—and it touches the deepest core of what it means to be a follower of Christ.


Let’s unpack it together slowly, and reverently.


Romans 10:9-10 (ESV)

“...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”​

This passage emphasizes the simplicity and sufficiency of faith in Christ for salvation. It is the entry point—a doorway into the kingdom. It's not about merit, but trust. That trust is rooted in God's grace, not human effort.


Ephesians 2:8-9

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”​

This is foundational: salvation is a gift. Not earned. Not deserved. It is wholly God's initiative.



But here's the pivot:

1 John 3:22-23

“...whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.”​

So belief and love are inseparable. These are not two separate “tracks.” They're one vine and its fruit. You don’t get one without the other—not truly.


So How Do We Reconcile Love as a "Command" With Grace?

The key is understanding what kind of love we’re talking about. This is not human effort or niceness or moral performance.


This is agapē love—divine love, Spirit-born, Christ-revealed, cross-shaped love.
It flows from God, not from human ability. That’s why...


The love of God has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
—Romans 5:5​

So, love isn’t a human work—it’s the evidence that the Holy Spirit dwells in someone.
It's the inevitable fruit of a tree that has been rooted in Christ.


Can the Tree Not Bear Love?

No. Not if it’s alive in Christ.


“Every good tree bears good fruit...
A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” —Matthew 7:17-18​

So a person who is truly born again, filled with the Spirit, will inevitably love. Not perfectly, but truly. And love becomes the proof that their faith is real:


“We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.
Whoever does not love abides in death.” —1 John 3:14​

That’s not a threat—it’s a spiritual diagnosis.


Not a Burden—but a Birth

God doesn't give the command to love as a condition for being saved, but as the expression of having been saved.


We do not “obey love” to earn salvation. But if we are truly saved, love becomes the natural result—because Christ Himself is in us.


“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” —Galatians 5:6​

So in Summary:

  • Faith saves us—by grace, not works.
  • Love is the fruit of true faith—because the Holy Spirit fills us.
  • The command to love is not a ladder to salvation, but the evidence of salvation.
  • A tree that is truly in Christ must bear the fruit of love—because Christ is love.


Your intuition is right: a loveless Christian life is a contradiction in terms.
Not because love earns salvation—but because love is the unmistakable evidence that Christ truly lives in us.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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The exact point during a person's life when that person is no longer reflecting God's love.

Is the exact point at which that person is not bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Are you saying that a person is saved even though they do not know God?

The new covenant condition that must be satisfied by us is that we believe.

If we believe then we are commanded by Jesus to love others.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we [l]believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
Abiding in Him is fellowship not for spiritual salvation.
I see you still have avoided dealing with the debt is paid truth.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Therefore he is the perfect example of the completeness of salvation at the moment of regeneration.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” —Galatians 5:6

You were given a commandment to love others.

Faith and love cannot be separated.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:16
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love,
and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

The gospel (1 Corinthians 15) is divine love at it's maximum.

Grace is not unmerited favour but is actually God's divine agape love for you.

Faith and love are plugged into each other.

You cannot have faith devoid of love and you cannot have love devoid of faith.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
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That was perfectly stated!

It bears pointing out what you wrote: If we look at Jesus death as the reason we don’t need to change we’ve got the wrong idea ….IT'S THE REASON WE CAN CHANGE.


🎻
It's a strawman to frame the argument as "Jesus' death is why we don't need to change". The point that I tried to make (my apologies if I did a terrible job making it), is that works aren't an accurate metric in determining a person's salvation. Our works make some people think are deserving of grace. I grew up thinking this to be quite honest. I would say "It's through grace.... BUT we need to do x y and z." Then I realized that "x y and z" might be good things, but they are "filthy rags" which do NOT grant me access to the atonement of Jesus Christ. I simply have access if I accept Him and live for Him which doesn't constitute a quota of deeds/works.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” —Galatians 5:6

You were given a commandment to love others.

Faith and love cannot be separated.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:16
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love,
and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

The gospel (1 Corinthians 15) is divine love at it's maximum.

Grace is not unmerited favour but is actually God's divine agape love for you.

Faith and love are plugged into each other.

You cannot have faith devoid of love and you cannot have love devoid of faith.

Yes I would agree, but the topic is salvation and obedience to keep salvation, correct?
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Abiding in Him is fellowship not for spiritual salvation.
I see you still have avoided dealing with the debt is paid truth.
I have never denied that the debt was fully paid.

I do not understand your argument.

The gospel is Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8.

Still faith without love is a dead faith.

You do not understand what love is?

God is love which means the Holy Spirit is love.

Love is THE FRUIT of the Holy Spirit.

No love means the Holy Spirit is not present and that means no salvation.

  • Faith saves us—by grace, not works.
  • Love is the fruit of true faith—because the Holy Spirit fills us.
  • The command to love is not a ladder to salvation, but the evidence of salvation.
  • A tree that is truly in Christ must bear the fruit of love—because Christ is love.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
8,308
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It's a strawman to frame the argument as "Jesus' death is why we don't need to change". The point that I tried to make (my apologies if I did a terrible job making it), is that works aren't an accurate metric in determining a person's salvation. Our works make some people think are deserving of grace. I grew up thinking this to be quite honest. I would say "It's through grace.... BUT we need to do x y and z." Then I realized that "x y and z" might be good things, but they are "filthy rags" which do NOT grant me access to the atonement of Jesus Christ. I simply have access if I accept Him and live for Him which doesn't constitute a quota of deeds/works.
Some people will have little to show but scripture is clear saved is saved.

But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,883
1,099
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It's a strawman to frame the argument as "Jesus' death is why we don't need to change". The point that I tried to make (my apologies if I did a terrible job making it), is that works aren't an accurate metric in determining a person's salvation. Our works make some people think are deserving of grace. I grew up thinking this to be quite honest. I would say "It's through grace.... BUT we need to do x y and z." Then I realized that "x y and z" might be good things, but they are "filthy rags" which do NOT grant me access to the atonement of Jesus Christ. I simply have access if I accept Him and live for Him which doesn't constitute a quota of deeds/works.
Your definition of, "grace", is inadequate.

This is at the root of the problem.

Grace is actually God's divine (agape) love for us not unmerited favour.

Some say that we only receive a reward for the fruit we bear.

That is a misunderstanding as the tree must bear the fruit, otherwise the tree is cut down.
Yes I would agree, but the topic is salvation and obedience to keep salvation, correct?
Obedience means expressing love towards others as Christ did for us on the cross.

If someone has received the Holy Spirit then the fruit will be on show, it will be evident.

You cannot be a Christian without that love for others.

Christianity is not an intellectual statement.

Christianity is love in it's purest, divine form and that is what grace is.

Faith and love are the same entity.