Who is Elihu?

[tttallison]

continued-

Elihu clearly explains why he is in this book. God gave Elihu six chapters because Job requested a mediator who Job would not be afraid of.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job 13:19-22 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

It is Elihu who will plead with Job.

Job 33:5-7 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

 

[posthuman]

Have you never considered that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

have you ever considered reading the book of Job?

Job 1:12​

And the LORD said to Satan, ​

"Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." ​

So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.​

​

Job 2:6 ​

And the LORD said to Satan, ​

"Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."​

 

[posthuman]

Job 1:11,12 - But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

Job 2:5,6 - But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”

Job 42:11 - Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.

God says *twice* in 42:7,8 that Job has spoken what is right about Him.

Job 40:8 - Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?

God *asks* Job if he would annul God's judgment and condemn Him so that he may be justified. This is a question. It is *not* an accusation, and Job effectively answers this question with "no". Compare this to satan's prediction in chapters 1 & 2 when satan incorrectly claimed that Job would curse God to His face. In 40:8 Job is seeing God with his own eyes and God gives Job the opportunity to condemn Him, but what happens? Job absolutely rejects any such idea.

Did God bring adversity on Job? Yes. Reread 42:11 above. As a result, did Job condemn God? No. This is what the entire story is about and proves satan's prediction utterly and distinctly wrong. God's relationship with His creation is not transactional. It's relational. This is why Job is persistently crying out to God and wanting his relationship with God to be restored. When Job sees God he is relieved and has finally received he answer to his prayers.

why does Job repent?

 

[posthuman]

Job 1:11,12 - But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”



Job 2:5,6 - But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”



Job 42:11 - Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.



God says *twice* in 42:7,8 that Job has spoken what is right about Him.



Job 40:8 - Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?



God *asks* Job if he would annul God's judgment and condemn Him so that he may be justified. This is a question. It is *not* an accusation, and Job effectively answers this question with "no". Compare this to satan's prediction in chapters 1 & 2 when satan incorrectly claimed that Job would curse God to His face. In 40:8 Job is seeing God with his own eyes and God gives Job the opportunity to condemn Him, but what happens? Job absolutely rejects any such idea.



Did God bring adversity on Job? Yes. Reread 42:11 above. As a result, did Job condemn God? No. This is what the entire story is about and proves satan's prediction utterly and distinctly wrong. God's relationship with His creation is not transactional. It's relational. This is why Job is persistently crying out to God and wanting his relationship with God to be restored. When Job sees God he is relieved and has finally received he answer
to his prayers.

note the text says God allowed Jobs family and possessions and body to be in Satans hands, and specifically that Satan afflicted him.

did God kill Jobs family, take away his material wealth and afflict his body with sores?
no, Satan did.
did Satan have to ask permission, and did God set boundaries on what Satan had power to do? yes.

God did not author theft and murder here, which is actually quite a nugget of truth. He took down the 'hedge' He had placed around Job, which had prevented evil from reaching him.

 

[Cameron143]

note the text says God allowed Jobs family and possessions and body to be in Satans hands, and specifically that Satan afflicted him.

did God kill Jobs family, take away his material wealth and afflict his body with sores?
no, Satan did.
did Satan have to ask permission, and did God set boundaries on what Satan had power to do? yes.

God did not author theft and murder here.

God did not perpetrate the actions, but the idea certainly came from Him. That doesn't make make Him the author?

 

[posthuman]

So let's look at some of Elihu's words. Here is what Elihu says about what Job has said:

34:36 - Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (NKJV)

previously discussed, with references cited.

Elihu is here paraphrasing what Jobs three friends said about him.

 

[posthuman]

God did not perpetrate the actions, but the idea certainly came from Him. That doesn't make make Him the author?

did the idea to afflict Job, murder his family and have his possessions robbed, come from God?
the Book says otherwise -

Job 1:9-11​

So Satan answered the LORD and said,​

"Does Job fear God for nothing? ​

Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ​

But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"​

 

[Cameron143]

did the idea to afflict Job, murder his family and have his possessions robbed, come from God?
the Book says otherwise -

Job 1:9-11​

So Satan answered the LORD and said,​

"Does Job fear God for nothing? ​

Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ​

But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"​

Why not include verse 8...hast thou considered my servant Job...

 

[posthuman]

Elihu's assessment of what Job has said is the opposite of God's assessment.

it seems yo me your accusation against Elihu all stems from this: you believe Job is completely impeccable and perfect in all his actions, thoughts and words, and that Elihu accuses him falsely of wrong.

couple things:

• Elihu's case is decidedly not the argument Jobs friends bring against him. they say Job is being punished for sin, but Elihu does not say this. Elihu says Job has been justifying himself at the exp nse of God, and that is not righteous.
• God brings the same accusation against Job as Elihu does.
• Job repents.

 

[posthuman]

Why not include verse 8...hast thou considered my servant Job...

why not include the entire first two chapters...

Oh yeah, text and attention span limit.

But the point here, is that it is Satan, not God, who suggests the theft of his property, the murder of his family, and the affliction of his body - and also Satan who carries it out.

do we imagine God wanted Jobs family murdered, and thought aha, here's how I'll do it, I'll trick Satan into thinking it was his idea?

does Satan have free will?

 

[Cameron143]

why not include the entire first two chapters...

Oh yeah, text and attention span limit.

But the point here, is that it is Satan, not God, who suggests the theft of his property, the murder of his family, and the affliction of his body - and also Satan who carries it out.

do we imagine God wanted Jobs family murdered, and thought aha, here's how I'll do it, I'll trick Satan into thinking it was his idea?

does Satan have free will?

It may have been Satan who decided within limits what to do to Job, but it was God who pointed Satan in Job's direction.

Do you believe Satan would have turned his focus upon Job had God not pointed him in that direction?

 

[christophernyc]

why does Job repent?

Fantastic question. This is a very important piece to this story, I believe.

When we read the word "repent" we could automatically assume Job is turning away from sin, much like the son in Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son turning from sin. But is that the case with Job? Some would adamantly say yes, and I can understand why they might based on this wording.

So let's look at the Hebrew word that is used here in Job 42:6. It is Strongs #5162 "nacham". Here is how it is defined:

Strong's Lexicon
nacham: To comfort, to repent, to relent, to be sorry
Original Word: נָחַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nacham
Pronunciation: nah-kham'
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-kham')
Definition: To comfort, to repent, to relent, to be sorry
Meaning: to sigh, breathe strongly, to be sorry, to pity, console, rue, to avenge

Consider the difference between "repent" and "relent". They're similar, but also somewhat distinct from each other. When someone "repents" they are turning around from going the wrong way, but to "relent" has a slightly different connotation. For example, let's look at the story of Jonah. God had warned of destroying Nineveh due to its wickedness. Would God be justified in destroying Nineveh? Yes. But as we know, God did not destroy Nineveh. God "relented". God did not turn around from doing something wrong, but He stopped pursuing a justifiable course of action to destroy Nineveh.

In Jonah 3:10 (NKJV) it says, "Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." The word "relented" here is the same Hebrew word "nacham".

The KJV says in Jonah 3:10 that God "repented", but the NKJV says God "relented". Does God need to "repent" like a sinner? No, of course not because He is sinless. Is God able to "relent", however, and have mercy on people by not condemning them? Yes.

What has Job been doing throughout his ordeal? He has been bringing a court case, essentially, against God for causing him to suffer *without cause*. (By the way, God admits this, too, in Job 2:3). What was happening to Job was unfair, he was not suffering because of something he had done wrong.

Then at the end of the story when God opens Himself up and *asks* Job if he will judge/condemn Him (40:8), Job does not. What does Job do instead? Job "relents". The word used here again is "nacham". Job withdraws his complaint and refrains from pursuing his case against God.

Herein is the evidence that satan was wrong, and Job would not curse God to His face even if he suffered unjustifiably. God also says that what Job said about Him was "right" and Job 42:11 highlights that God brought the adversity on Job, which God acknowledges is without cause. Even still, this did not break the bond between Job and God. Job does not curse God but perseveres through his adversity and maintains his faith and integrity. God gets the ultimate glory by proving to everyone that His relationship with His creation is not transactional, but relational.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

have you ever considered reading the book of Job?

Yes I did consider it, and look what I found.

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." Job 1:21-22

So Job wasn't ignorant of who was doing the taking, Job was just asking the LORD why he was taking it. Even Elihu didn't claim that it was Satan that was the cause of Job's of situation. Elihu claimed that the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deut 4:39

 

[posthuman]

It may have been Satan who decided within limits what to do to Job, but it was God who pointed Satan in Job's direction.

Do you believe Satan would have turned his focus upon Job had God not pointed him in that direction?

Seems that Satan had already had his attention on Job:

Job 1:8-10​

Then the LORD said to Satan, ​

"Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" ​

So Satan answered the LORD and said, ​

"Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land." ​

Satan certainly doesn't answer as tho he has not considers Job. the answer is yes, he has, and is infuriated by him, and accuses God of doing evil by protecting him, and says Jobs respect of God is fake and manufactured.

God doesn't ask questions for no reason, and the reason is never that He doesn't snt know the answer to them.

It's just like His first question to Satan - where have you been? this isn't because God doesn't know. He makes Satan confess before all the angels that he has been thrown out of heaven, confined to the earth, and has been roaming it looking for who he can devour.
the second question naturally follows - it's like entering evidence into a court: let all the angels also witness that Satan cannot devour everyone, but that God reigns.
exhibit A: Job

first God's word causes Satan to confess that he has been cursed, then forces Satan to demonstrate that he is worthy of the curse.

 

[Cameron143]

Seems that Satan had already had his attention on Job:

Job 1:8-10​

Then the LORD said to Satan, ​

"Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" ​

So Satan answered the LORD and said, ​

"Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land." ​

Satan certainly doesn't answer as tho he has not considers Job. the answer is yes, he has, and is infuriated by him, and accuses God of doing evil by protecting him, and says Jobs respect of God is fake and manufactured.

God doesn't ask questions for no reason, and the reason is never that He doesn't snt know the answer to them.

It's just like His first question to Satan - where have you been? this isn't because God doesn't know. He makes Satan confess before all the angels that he has been thrown out of heaven, confined to the earth, and has been roaming it looking for who he can devour.
the second question naturally follows - it's like entering evidence into a court: let all the angels also witness that Satan cannot devour everyone, but that God reigns.
exhibit A: Job

first God's word causes Satan to confess that he has been cursed, then forces Satan to demonstrate that he is worthy of the curse.

Sure Satan considered Job before and had no luck because God had protected him. But God directs Satan in Job's direction afresh. Satan had given up on attacking Job because he wasn't getting anywhere with it. God instigates Satan considering anew. While Satan is eager to do so, there is no reason to believe he would have done so had God not pointed him in Job's direction.

 

[Zandar]

continued-

Elihu clearly explains why he is in this book. God gave Elihu six chapters because Job requested a mediator who Job would not be afraid of.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job 13:19-22 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

It is Elihu who will plead with Job.

Job 33:5-7 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Good points.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

God did not author theft and murder here, which is actually quite a nugget of truth.

So where do you interpret that God authored theft and murder?

 

[posthuman]

So where do you interpret that God authored theft and murder?

i don't.

 

[tttallison]

It was God's love for Job that allowed God to permit Satan to take Job's possessions and persecute his body. God desires that all be saved.

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

We save our soul by putting on God's righteousness. Remember what Paul said about Israel?

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Job was not saved from the beginning. If he had been saved it meant that he had put on God's righteousness. Job definitely had not put on God's righteousness, rather he was attempting to establish his own righteousness. Remember when God asked Job if he would condemn God so that he might be righteous. God said who is this that speaks without knowledge? Exactly what Paul said about Israel, that Israel was without knowledge. Paul said Israel had a zeal for God Job definitely had a zeal for God. Paul also said Israel was not saved.

If a commander in chief gives a General permission to commit a certain act, who is most responsible. The General, or the Commander in Chief?

 

[christophernyc]

note the text says God allowed Jobs family and possessions and body to be in Satans hands, and specifically that Satan afflicted him.

did God kill Jobs family, take away his material wealth and afflict his body with sores?
no, Satan did.
did Satan have to ask permission, and did God set boundaries on what Satan had power to do? yes.

God did not author theft and murder here, which is actually quite a nugget of truth. He took down the 'hedge' He had placed around Job, which had prevented evil from reaching him.

Yes, I think we both agree here. Job would not have suffered at the hand of satan had God not removed the barrier of protection and set boundaries. Adversity came upon Job because God, the most powerful entity, allowed adversity to befall Job.

Look at the story of Joseph. In Genesis 37:27,28 (NKJV) it says, "Come and let us sell him [Joseph] to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh.” And his brothers listened. Then Midianite traders passed by; so the brothers pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they took Joseph to Egypt."

Who is responsible for Joseph going to Egypt? Who would you say?

Now let's look at Psalms 105:16,17 (NKJV) where it says:

"Moreover He [God] called for a famine in the land;
He destroyed all the provision of bread.
He sent a man before them—
Joseph—who was sold as a slave."

Who is responsible for Joseph going to Egypt? Who would you say?

Now look at Genesis 50:20 where Joseph says to his brothers, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good..."