At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

studier · Sunday at 9:25 PM

OK. Let's tighten it up and see if we agree or not.

Firstly, I'd tighten this "the word generates faith" a bit.

Rom 10:16 is describing Faith-Obedience to the Gospel - the Message heard

Rom10:17 God's spoken Message heard results in Faith (Faith-Obedience as established in 10:16)

The Gospel Message heard, believed, obeyed = Faith/Belief-Obedience. Faith/Belief-Obedience is the result of hearing, believing, obeying the Gospel Message from God. When we hear, believe, obey God's Gospel Message we are said to Believe/Trust/Have Faith-Obedience.

My concern with your wording is it IMO sounds somewhat Calvinistic. If you have any Calvinistic bent re: election, then I'm not interested, I am currently fixed on man's will being involved in the equation.

Believing is mentioned several times in the context. It's a God given faculty of the human mind. I hesitate to insert anything into the language that makes it sound like this is some supernatural creation of a faculty we already have. What's supernatural and by Grace is the information based upon facts and reality that some accept and some don't.

Then we also have verbal confession of Lord Jesus in the context. I've seen some work very hard to work around this because they saw confession as a human work.

As for other things attached to or associated with Faith-Obedience that God may or may not require for entrance into Christ, just because they're not stated here does not mean they do not exist. As I said, I know of some who do not accept confession of Lord Jesus as necessary for Faith-Obedience and most certainly do not accept obedience as part of faith. And IMO we must talk about human choice. IOW, Rom10 is not all there is re: Genuine Faith-Obedience. And once we have Faith-Obedience in the equation, then IMO we must look at all the mentions of belief or Faith and cut through some of the simplistic things being done with them.

I've already said some things about staying saved.

sawdust said:

This is the type of narrative that is typical in these discussions.

Have I indicated that anything we do is apart from Grace? I'll answer this - No, I have not.

Most certainly James is saying we must have Faith + Good Works (or we have dead faith) and so is Paul by at minimum saying we were [newly] created for Good Works.

What's the difference between saying you will do Good Works as a natural outworking of your life in Christ, and you must do Good Works if you truly have new life in Christ? There is no difference. It's just some word game we're playing to try to avoid some odd concept of works salvation.

These same games end up treating God's commands with lip-service as if we have no real part in obeying them. Then when some of us say of course we play a part in obeying commands under Grace, we get charged as works-salvationists no matter how many times we explain obedience under Grace.

Yes, the testing goes on for genuineness because Genuine Faith needs to be Genuine Faith and it will prove to be so because it must be so, or it is not Genuine Faith.

So, since we must actively abide and endure and do other things as commanded of our Faith-Obedience - meaning we must have Faith-Obedience + Works, then we are involved in a cooperative growth relationship with God and therefore in a sense, we are involved in our salvation.

We are involved in a willingly, faithfully obedient, cooperative relationship with the God of our Salvation. His commands and warnings are real just as they always have been. I've said it before and will again, some of this is about as easy to explain as the interaction between God's Sovereignty and man's God designed and created will. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we're commanded to not be apart from Him. Very simply, that's what His Word says. It's just better to accept what He says - this is Faith-Obedience.

studier · Sunday at 9:47 PM

mailmandan said:

Thanks for the link. I've thanked you before for supplying them and do so again.

The resource you linked has a lot of additional information. I glanced through all the shown resources. They show more detail that is meaningful to the way the word is used throughout the Text. There are several things attached to and that differ from the simple change of mind definition. This is why I brought up context in how it's used.

I just did a quick and simple search on repent* (which shows different forms of the word) and just in English in the NKJ. It shows 68 hits. It's quite a bit of work to see all the ways the word is used in contexts.

Look at one that comes to mind quickly - what is Paul commanding gentile unbelievers to repent of in Acts17:30? Consider looking at some of the other resources on your linked reference before answering.

I've another question for you and @sawdust, I've read some work that absolutely does not want repentance to be necessary for Faith. It points out that "repent" is not used in GJohn in any form of the word. The conclusion is that it's not necessary for salvation. Does this make sense to either of you?

I also asked 4 questions none of which were answered.

Inquisitor · Sunday at 10:15 PM

Beckworth said:

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”

I would say that when you receive the Holy Spirit which is the divine recognition, of your belief in Jesus.

Romans 8:9
But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Mem · Monday at 12:47 AM

PaulThomson said:

Today something came to me that I thought to write in @Lynx's "Deep Thoughts" thread. But since I'm lazy, I'll just take this opportunity to note it here. But first, a little background. Because it is only on rare occasion that I get Sunday off, I'll connect my phone to the wireless speaker, that the previous GM purchased for the kitchen and left with us when he moved on, to refill my spiritual tank while I'm prepping for opening. I've done this enough that chef will periodically comment something like, '...we need the Gospel.' But today, before work, I had put my phone on the charger in anticipation of 'needing the Gospel' and only realized I left it on the charger after I had arrived at work and so, when Chef didn't fail to expect it and comment this time, I managed to generate an impromptu sermon, preaching, "If you do something because you have to do it, that's the law, and that leads to death because, eventually, you won't want to do it and you'll end up saying, 'Ahh, to hell with it.' However, if you do something because you want to do something, that's grace."

And I'm happy to report that generated a fairly reasonable facsimile to an Amen, and even some evidence by a bit fruit I might add!

So, applying that particular thought to the Israelites at the first Passover, perhaps it will hellp me to better able to answer your question.
Did the Israelites apply the blood from fear of death, or did they apply it for gratitude of deliverance? Was there a difference in the application re: the Israelites and re: the Gospel? or does it really matter as long as it was applied?

mailmandan · Monday at 7:58 AM

studier said:

Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ. (Acts 20:21)

Prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), certain folks must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God. (1 Thessalonians 1:9) On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation/placing faith in Him alone for salvation. (Acts 11:17,18; 15:7-9)

studier · Monday at 8:30 AM

mailmandan said:

All good.

I suppose all I'd say is to repeat that the sequence is not as pronounced for me as it is for you. A change from one way of thinking to another seems for all practical purposes virtually simultaneous. A turn from gods to God seems the same. Changing from unbelief to belief seems the same.

Acts20:21 is interesting, and I can throw a few questions at it, which I already did. I don't see them being answered, so I'll not ask again. But I'll apply what I said above: If God is commanding to believe in Jesus Christ and one has yet to believe in Jesus Christ, then when one repents to God he believes in Jesus Christ. It's about the same as repent and believe which can be translated as repent/believe which is your 2 sides of the same coin which at minimum makes them inseparable and a virtually simultaneous change from unbelief to belief.

DJT_47 · Monday at 12:21 PM

At the point of baptism into Christ

studier · Monday at 5:31 PM

Mem said:

It seems to me it's simply an application of Faith-Obedience by the Israelites. Motivation is surely meaningful but believing God when He says something and doing what He says especially when the results for not doing it will be so devastating, is simply a good example of Faith-Obedience, Fear of God, and so on, including just being smart.

Sometimes I think it's just a simple matter of, 'just do what I tell you to do' which is one of the lessons I see in Luke17:5-10. Ironically - and ironically by design - to do so is to exercise Faith.

In Christ in Spirit, I think this becomes the common - the new natural - that may not have been so common before: 3 For this is the love of/for God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 Jn. 5:3 NKJ)

Lamar · Monday at 5:54 PM

mailmandan said:

What a strange comment.

Jesus taught the need for obedience throughout the Bible. Obedience is not so afterthought or optional issue. It is at the heart of the flow and foam of the entire Word of God. Obedience cannot be set apart from the agency of redemption.

Do you believe that obedience is a byproduct of faith? It is not.

Faith, no matter how sincere does not on its own product obedience.

There is no expectation of grace without obedience.

Jesus never once spoke of grace without obedience.

As a matter of fact, Jesus never spoke the word or alluded to it in the New Testament.

Jesus spoke of faith and obedience as our means to redemption.

Cameron143 · Monday at 6:19 PM

Lamar said:

What a strange comment.

Jesus taught the need for obedience throughout the Bible. Obedience is not so afterthought or optional issue. It is at the heart of the flow and foam of the entire Word of God. Obedience cannot be set apart from the agency of redemption.

Do you believe that obedience is a byproduct of faith? It is not.

Faith, no matter how sincere does not on its own product obedience.

There is no expectation of grace without obedience.

Jesus never once spoke of grace without obedience.

As a matter of fact, Jesus never spoke the word or alluded to it in the New Testament.

Jesus spoke of faith and obedience as our means to redemption.

He's speaking of the distinction between obedience as a means of salvation. Where does Jesus say salvation comes by means of obedience?

sawdust · Monday at 6:20 PM

studier said:

My language is my language as is yours. I have endeavoured to understand you based on what language you use and how you describe it. I have a problem when you keep repeating "believe/obey = faith/obedience". As far as I am concerned you have obeyed when you believe. I don't understand just how much obedience you want or even what are you now obeying if you already have faith?

I am far from being a Calvinist. The hearing/obeying/believing is an act of our will. We co-operate when we do this. The result is faith and it comes, not from the actions of our will, but from the word heard. Faith is supernatural, it comes from the word. (although in truth I don't like that word supernatural but rather I prefer to say it's spiritual but too many don't truly understand what is spiritual)

Do we want to grow our faith? Then we apply the heard/obey/believe once again and again and again and again until the day we die or the Lord comes for us. If what we heard is true it will result in faith, if it is not true, we will be left with what we believe only and that will not save us. Without faith we cannot please God. In a practical sense, faith is the goal because faith is the word alive and working in us. Having (genuine) faith is "no longer we who live but Christ in us".

studier said:

I think I answered this in another post. It may not have been to you though. I looked it up, it was back in post#29.

studier said:

Is it a word game? It might sound the same to your ears but not to mine. To mine it sounds like you are separating faith and good works. As if doing good works is a response to faith rather than an outworking of faith. I think a lot of disagreement we see here is caused by assumptions that what things sound like to one persons ears means the same thing to another. If you understand the good works we do are an outworking of our faith and not something we add to faith, then we are in agreement. But if you say we have faith and then have to do good works to prove it, how is that different from what we term today as "virtue signalling"?

studier said:

That is what you hear, it is not what I hear. I hear James saying "my good works reveal my faith". So for me it is not 1+1 but 1x1 (so to speak).

studier said:

I cannot think of any circumstance in which repentance is not required. Even if one has never heard anything and is ignorant of all things God, they still have to change their mind from no belief to believing. What's that saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Just because John doesn't mention repentance doesn't mean it is not innately implied when one understands it essentially means to change one's mind.

mailmandan · Monday at 8:15 PM

Lamar said:

It only sounds like a strange comment to you because you teach salvation by works.

Obedience/works which "follows" saving faith in Christ is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ but not the very essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Do you believe that we are saved by faith + obedience/works which "follows" and is produced out of faith? If so, please explain to me how much obedience/how many good works must you accomplish in order to be saved? You could never be obedient enough to earn your salvation. God's standard is perfection and we have all fallen short. (Romans 3:23) We need a Savior. (Romans 6:23)

So, where do you draw the line in the sand on who will be saved and who will be condemned? Jesus drew the line in the sand in John 3:18. Nothing there about works righteousness.

Pilgrimshope · Monday at 10:42 PM

mailmandan said:

Just a second witness

“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Under the law sometimes a sinner was hanged up on a tree as a warning to other people . Jesus was hanged on the tree for sinners taking thier place here

“And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God

that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,

lrs68 · Monday at 10:52 PM

Lamar said:

I thought the same thing when I finally surrendered my life to the Calling of God's Invitation and my friends said grab the gun and shoot him now before he changes his mind so we know he'll make it to Heaven

PaulThomson · Monday at 10:55 PM

sawdust said:

My language is my language as is yours. I have endeavoured to understand you based on what language you use and how you describe it. I have a problem when you keep repeating "believe/obey = faith/obedience". As far as I am concerned you have obeyed when you believe. I don't understand just how much obedience you want or even what are you now obeying if you already have faith?

I am far from being a Calvinist. The hearing/obeying/believing is an act of our will. We co-operate when we do this. The result is faith and it comes, not from the actions of our will, but from the word heard. Faith is supernatural, it comes from the word. (although in truth I don't like that word supernatural but rather I prefer to say it's spiritual but too many don't truly understand what is spiritual)

Do we want to grow our faith? Then we apply the heard/obey/believe once again and again and again and again until the day we die or the Lord comes for us. If what we heard is true it will result in faith, if it is not true, we will be left with what we believe only and that will not save us. Without faith we cannot please God. In a practical sense, faith is the goal because faith is the word alive and working in us. Having (genuine) faith is "no longer we who live but Christ in us".

I think I answered this in another post. It may not have been to you though. I looked it up, it was back in post#29.

Is it a word game? It might sound the same to your ears but not to mine. To mine it sounds like you are separating faith and good works. As if doing good works is a response to faith rather than an outworking of faith. I think a lot of disagreement we see here is caused by assumptions that what things sound like to one persons ears means the same thing to another. If you understand the good works we do are an outworking of our faith and not something we add to faith, then we are in agreement. But if you say we have faith and then have to do good works to prove it, how is that different from what we term today as "virtue signalling"?

That is what you hear, it is not what I hear. I hear James saying "my good works reveal my faith". So for me it is not 1+1 but 1x1 (so to speak).

I cannot think of any circumstance in which repentance is not required. Even if one has never heard anything and is ignorant of all things God, they still have to change their mind from no belief to believing. What's that saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Just because John doesn't mention repentance doesn't mean it is not innately implied when one understands it essentially means to change one's mind.

Am I understanding you correctly as saying that genuine faith in Jesus is expressed as good works, and if a person turns away from pursuing a lifestyle of good works, this can only happen if they have abandoned genuine faith in Christ, because faith and good works are two sides of one coin?

Inquisitor · Tuesday at 12:35 AM

studier said:

Let's have a look at what AI thinks.

In the New Testament, "repentance" generally refers to a profound change in one's mind, heart, and behaviour—a turning away from sin, unbelief, or idolatry, and turning toward God. The term is often associated with the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), which literally means "a change of mind" or "a transformation of thought," but it carries a much deeper connotation of a moral and spiritual reversal.

Let’s break it down into a few key aspects based on New Testament texts:
1. Turning from Sin

Repentance involves a change in behavior—specifically, turning away from sinful actions and attitudes.

Matthew 3:2 – "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."
Luke 13:3 – "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
Acts 3:19 – "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord."

In these verses, repentance is directly linked to turning away from sin and turning back to God. This is reflected in both the preaching of John the Baptist and Jesus, as well as the apostles.
2. Turning from Unbelief

Repentance in the New Testament is also tied to turning away from disbelief in Jesus and embracing the gospel message. It’s not merely about turning from sinful behavior but also from a mindset of rejecting the truth of Christ.

Mark 1:15 – "The time has come. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"
John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

In these passages, Jesus calls for repentance in the context of coming to faith in Him and His message. The act of repenting involves not just a turning away from sin but also from a state of unbelief or rejection of God’s authority and salvation.
3. Turning from Idolatry

Repentance can also involve turning away from idols—whether literal or metaphorical—things that people worship or prioritize above God.

Acts 14:15 – "Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them."
1 Thessalonians 1:9 – "For they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God."

Here, repentance is seen as a turning from idolatry (false worship) to the worship of the one true God. This is particularly emphasized in the early missionary work of Paul and the apostles as they proclaimed the gospel to Gentile converts.
4. Repentance as a Requirement for Forgiveness

Repentance is often depicted as necessary for receiving forgiveness from God.

Luke 24:47 – "And repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
Acts 2:38 – "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

Here, repentance is tied to the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is a required step for entering into a restored relationship with God.
5. Repentance and Godly Sorrow

Repentance also involves a genuine sorrow for sin that leads to a change of heart and mind.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 – "Yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."

This passage highlights the deep, heartfelt sorrow that leads to true repentance. It's the kind of sorrow that isn’t just about feeling bad for being caught but about a genuine remorse for offending God and a desire to change.
Summary of the Biblical View of Repentance:

A change of mind: Turning from old ways of thinking, including sin, unbelief, and idolatry, to a new understanding of God’s will and salvation through Christ.
A turning from sin: Repentance calls for a break from sinful practices and a commitment to live according to God’s commands.
A turning to God: Repentance always involves a positive action of turning to God, accepting His grace, and seeking His forgiveness.
Essential for salvation: Repentance is a necessary response to the gospel message for the forgiveness of sins and receiving eternal life.

TrustandObey · Tuesday at 12:51 AM

Cameron143 said:

Rev. 2:7
Rev. 2:10
Rev. 2:17
Rev. 2:26
Rev. 3:5
Rev. 3:10
Rev. 3:12
Rev.3:20-21
I can give you a lot more but these are the easy ones.

Now, where does Jesus say salvation comes by means of grace without obedience?
Verses, please. No surmising.

Inquisitor · Tuesday at 3:12 AM

TrustandObey said:

You misunderstand the New Testament.

Have a look at the following verses just from John as an example.

Please notice the word, "believe", in each verse.

John 1:7
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:50
Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.”

John 2:11
What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 2:23
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

John 3:15
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4:21
“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 4:39
Many Samaritans Believe
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”

John 4:41
And because of his words many more became believers.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 4:48
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

John 4:53
Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” So he and his whole household believed.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:38
nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

John 5:44
How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

John 5:47
But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:30
So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:36
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:64
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

John 6:69
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

John 7:5
For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

John 7:31
Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?”

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:48
“Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

John 8:30
Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

John 8:31
Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents are To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said,
“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

John 8:45
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

John 9:18
They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents.

John 9:35
Spiritual Blindness
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

John 10:42
And in that place many believed in Jesus.

John 11:15
and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Mem · Tuesday at 3:35 AM

studier said:

It's become apparent that, on the surface, we're speaking the same thing, as much as we're reading the same words. That is, faith and obedience is basically synonymous, we can't have one without the other so I'm not sure if I can adequately express my idea of it other than by saying that I believe that faith is the obedience, as saying, 'believe in obedience' rather than 'obey in faith'. I realize how one can so easily be muddled for the other. We've heard it said as it were, 'step out in faith' which suggests that we walk even though we don't know whether the bridge might actually hold. And at first glance it appears that this is what Peter did when he stepped out of the boat. However, I'm not convinced that Peter would've stepped out of the boat if he wasn't sure that the water would hold him up, notwithstanding that He did ask Jesus for assurance before stepping out, but He got the assurance, He believed Jesus' word... and then, of course, he thought again and began to sink which prompted Jesus to ask, in paraphrase, 'why did your faith falter?'

It is my opinion that "His commandments (which are not burdensome, as in not so copious but quite simple) are "believe" here, there, now, then, and believe and believe and don't ever stop believing that He will keep you, and hold you up, until the day that all creation is groaning for its arrival. I truly think that if I asked tomorrow, 'what would you have me do today?' and asked every subsequent day afterward, the answer would, again, be "believe in Me.'

After all, Jesus put the ear back on the centurion which Peter had hacked off. Why would he even bother? Was it for Pete's sake? Or was it for the centurion? for both? for everyone? I think yes. So, I'm not convinced that we can lose our salvation as much as I'm sure that it is needful that our assurance needs to be maintained (as our next steps, usually sooner than later in my case, sink, and that is done by continuously abiding in Him.

Inquisitor · Tuesday at 3:37 AM

Lamar said:

Faith plus obedience, faith plus works, faith plus fruit, faith plus love?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
and not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

That is the foundation of our faith, Christ alone.

Now on another topic; the Christian life; i.e., works, fruit, love, prayer, fellowship, etc.

The Christian life is powered by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is given when you believe.

So what is the relationship between faith and works?

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

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