At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[Inquisitor]

It's become apparent that, on the surface, we're speaking the same thing, as much as we're reading the same words. That is, faith and obedience is basically synonymous, we can't have one without the other so I'm not sure if I can adequately express my idea of it other than by saying that I believe that faith is the obedience, as saying, 'believe in obedience' rather than 'obey in faith'. I realize how one can so easily be muddled for the other. We've heard it said as it were, 'step out in faith' which suggests that we walk even though we don't know whether the bridge might actually hold. And at first glance it appears that this is what Peter did when he stepped out of the boat. However, I'm not convinced that Peter would've stepped out of the boat if he wasn't sure that the water would hold him up, notwithstanding that He did ask Jesus for assurance before stepping out, but He got the assurance, He believed Jesus' word... and then, of course, he thought again and began to sink which prompted Jesus to ask, in paraphrase, 'why did your faith falter?'

It is my opinion that "His commandments (which are not burdensome, as in not so copious but quite simple) are "believe" here, there, now, then, and believe and believe and don't ever stop believing that He will keep you, and hold you up, until the day that all creation is groaning for its arrival.

After all, Jesus put the ear back on the centurion which Peter had hacked off. Why would he even bother? Was it for Pete's sake? Or was it for the centurion? for both? for everyone? I think yes. So, I'm not convinced that we can lose our salvation as much as I'm sure that it is needful that our assurance needs to be maintained (as our next steps, usually sooner than later in my case, sink, and that is done by continuously abiding in Him.

To avoid shipwreck you need to follow the light.

 

[studier]

You misunderstand the New Testament.

You may be misunderstanding Genuine Belief.

Ask AI about the interconnection between faith and obedience.

 

[studier]

It's become apparent that, on the surface, we're speaking the same thing, as much as we're reading the same words. That is, faith and obedience is basically synonymous, we can't have one without the other so I'm not sure if I can adequately express my idea of it other than by saying that I believe that faith is the obedience, as saying, 'believe in obedience' rather than 'obey in faith'. I realize how one can so easily be muddled for the other. We've heard it said as it were, 'step out in faith' which suggests that we walk even though we don't know whether the bridge might actually hold. And at first glance it appears that this is what Peter did when he stepped out of the boat. However, I'm not convinced that Peter would've stepped out of the boat if he wasn't sure that the water would hold him up, notwithstanding that He did ask Jesus for assurance before stepping out, but He got the assurance, He believed Jesus' word... and then, of course, he thought again and began to sink which prompted Jesus to ask, in paraphrase, 'why did your faith falter?'

It is my opinion that "His commandments (which are not burdensome, as in not so copious but quite simple) are "believe" here, there, now, then, and believe and believe and don't ever stop believing that He will keep you, and hold you up, until the day that all creation is groaning for its arrival. I truly think that if I asked tomorrow, 'what would you have me do today?' and asked every subsequent day afterward, the answer would, again, be "believe in Me.'

After all, Jesus put the ear back on the centurion which Peter had hacked off. Why would he even bother? Was it for Pete's sake? Or was it for the centurion? for both? for everyone? I think yes. So, I'm not convinced that we can lose our salvation as much as I'm sure that it is needful that our assurance needs to be maintained (as our next steps, usually sooner than later in my case, sink, and that is done by continuously abiding in Him.

For me it's simple, Faith in God and obedience to God are so vitally interconnected as to be virtually synonymous. I'm OK with the @mailmandan explanation of their being 2 sides of the same coin, but in a sense I myself take it further. I don't have to flip the coin over to see the other side.

NAS Luke 6:46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

It's really that simple.

And when do we get to stop doing what He says and legitimately say we still believe who He is? Never.

At the end of all this, Faith/Obedience, Faith-Obedience, Obedience-Faith, Obedience/Faith, they just work together. All these verses that speak of believing Him or believing in Him all carry the same unity of these two words and Luke6:46 should always be ringing in the ears when belief in God is read. And that verse should be read for the rhetorical question it is - If you're not doing what He says, then stop calling Him Lord (because you don't really believe He is Lord).

It's funny, but I'm beginning to see more and more how dumb some of the arguments are that we make. i.e. God created men with the ability to choose because He doesn't want robots. I'll tell you what, God, with the will you have blessed us with, I ask you to please program me with perfect faithful obedience to your perfect will to always do what pleases you and always say what I hear you say (as did my Lord Jesus your Christ). IOW, please write your perfect love on my heart as is in the heart of my perfect first-born brother and Lord. I've had enough of this free waywardness and want no more remnants of the first Adam.

 

[Inquisitor]

You may be misunderstanding Genuine Belief.

Ask AI about the interconnection between faith and obedience.

AI was restricted to a literal reading of the N.T. which means no theology or church theology.

Drum roll please.

1. Salvation is by Faith

Faith is the primary means by which a person is justified (declared righteous) before God:

• Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV):
  "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
• Romans 5:1:
  "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
• John 3:16:
  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

2. Faith is Expected to Produce Obedience

True faith leads to a transformed life marked by obedience to God:

• Romans 1:5:
  "Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations."
• James 2:17:
  "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
• Hebrews 11 (entire chapter):
  Lists individuals who had faith that resulted in action. For example:
  • Hebrews 11:7: "By faith Noah...constructed an ark..."
  • Hebrews 11:8: "By faith Abraham obeyed..."

3. Obedience as a Test of Genuine Faith

Disobedience is evidence of unbelief; obedience flows from true faith:

• 1 John 2:3-4:
  "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
• Luke 6:46:
  "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"
• Matthew 7:21:
  "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

4. Faith and Obedience in Salvation

Obedience is not the basis of salvation, but it is inseparable from saving faith.

• Romans 6:17-18:
  "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching... and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
• Hebrews 5:9:
  "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

Summary:

• Faith is the means by which we are saved.
• Obedience is the evidence and fruit of saving faith.
• The New Testament does not separate the two; rather, it treats obedience as the necessary outworking of genuine faith.

 

[Inquisitor]

You may be misunderstanding Genuine Belief.

Ask AI about the interconnection between faith and obedience.

Just in case you have been led into legalism under the term, 'commandments'.

Asking AI to clear up the misunderstanding regarding the N.C. commandments.

Lead on AI.

You're right—this is a critical and often misunderstood question. The New Testament makes it clear that Christians are under a New Covenant, and the commandments we are to obey are redefined and fulfilled in Christ-centered love, not a return to the Old Law. Here's a biblical breakdown using only New Testament verses:


🔹 1. The Central Commandment: Love

The primary commandment Christians are to obey is love—toward God and others. This fulfills the law.

• John 13:34-35:
  "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
• John 15:12:
  "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
• Matthew 22:37-40:
  "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart...This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.'"
• Romans 13:8-10:
  "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law...Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

🔹 2. The Commandments in 1 John 3

John clearly defines what commandments Christians must obey:

• 1 John 3:23:
  "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us."

Here, the commandments are twofold:

1. Believe in Jesus Christ
2. Love one another

This matches the New Covenant emphasis on faith and love, not external ritual law.


🔹 3. The Law of Christ / Law of the Spirit

Paul teaches that Christians are not under the Mosaic Law but under the Law of Christ—which again points to love.

• Galatians 6:2:
  "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
• Romans 8:2:
  "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death."
• 1 Corinthians 9:21:
  "...not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ..."

🔹 4. Specific New Testament Commands for Christian Living

There are practical commands rooted in love, humility, and spiritual order. One noteworthy example you mentioned:

• 1 Corinthians 14:37:
  "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord."
  Paul refers here to his Spirit-led teaching on order in the church (e.g., speaking in tongues, prophecy, women in the assembly, etc.), not optional advice.

Other key New Testament instructions include:

• Galatians 5:13-14:
  "Through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
• 1 Thessalonians 4:2:
  "For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus."

These show that while the moral expectations of Christians are serious, they are rooted in love, guided by the Spirit, and centered on faith in Christ—not a checklist of external laws.


🔹 5. Summary of Christian Commandments (NT only)

Commandment Scripture Believe in Jesus1 John 3:23; John 6:29Love one anotherJohn 13:34-35; 1 John 3:23; Romans 13:8Love GodMatthew 22:37Bear one another’s burdensGalatians 6:2Walk in the SpiritGalatians 5:16, 22-25Submit to apostolic teaching1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thess 4:2Live by faithRomans 1:17; Galatians 2:20Be holy and avoid sin1 Peter 1:14-16; 1 Thess 4:3


Final Thought:

The New Covenant commandments are not a return to the Mosaic Law, but rather the call to faith in Christ and a life transformed by love through the Holy Spirit. Obedience flows from relationship, not ritual.

 

[Cameron143]

Rev. 2:7
Rev. 2:10
Rev. 2:17
Rev. 2:26
Rev. 3:5
Rev. 3:10
Rev. 3:12
Rev.3:20-21
I can give you a lot more but these are the easy ones.

Now, where does Jesus say salvation comes by means of grace without obedience?
Verses, please. No surmising.

None of those verses give the source of the power that leads to overcoming or faithfulness. In other words, they are descriptive verses of those who are overcomers and faithful. They are not commands.
Example: to him that overcomes...not, you must overcome.
You want so badly to have a part in your salvation. Perhaps it is the the source of your confidence that you are saved. This is no different than the Pharisees who were sure they were children of God. But the surety God gives His children is spiritual. It is a sealing with the Holy Ghost.

 

[mailmandan]

None of those verses give the source of the power that leads to overcoming or faithfulness. In other words, they are descriptive verses of those who are overcomers and faithful.

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

You want so badly to have a part in your salvation. Perhaps it is the source of your confidence that you are saved.

You nailed it, and it's called pride. Works-salvationists will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result of works-righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5)

But the surety God gives His children is spiritual. It is a sealing with the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Cameron143]

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

You nailed it, and it's called pride. Works-salvationists will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result of works-righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5)

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Appreciate you sharing the verses supporting my post.

 

[studier]

My language is my language as is yours. I have endeavoured to understand you based on what language you use and how you describe it. I have a problem when you keep repeating "believe/obey = faith/obedience". As far as I am concerned you have obeyed when you believe. I don't understand just how much obedience you want or even what are you now obeying if you already have faith?

I am far from being a Calvinist. The hearing/obeying/believing is an act of our will. We co-operate when we do this. The result is faith and it comes, not from the actions of our will, but from the word heard. Faith is supernatural, it comes from the word. (although in truth I don't like that word supernatural but rather I prefer to say it's spiritual but too many don't truly understand what is spiritual)

Do we want to grow our faith? Then we apply the heard/obey/believe once again and again and again and again until the day we die or the Lord comes for us. If what we heard is true it will result in faith, if it is not true, we will be left with what we believe only and that will not save us. Without faith we cannot please God. In a practical sense, faith is the goal because faith is the word alive and working in us. Having (genuine) faith is "no longer we who live but Christ in us".

It seems pretty simple. You believe Faith is the result of hearing/obeying/believing. I see Faith as obeying/believing truth we hear. Believing and having Faith IMO are synonymous. Then contextually, it's obvious that Genuine Faith/Belief includes obedience and apart from obedience there is no Genuine Faith/Belief.

IMO the wording you used immediately brought to mind than the way Calvinists speak of God giving Faith to His elect.

Thanks for clarifying.

Is it a word game? It might sound the same to your ears but not to mine. To mine it sounds like you are separating faith and good works. As if doing good works is a response to faith rather than an outworking of faith. I think a lot of disagreement we see here is caused by assumptions that what things sound like to one persons ears means the same thing to another. If you understand the good works we do are an outworking of our faith and not something we add to faith, then we are in agreement. But if you say we have faith and then have to do good works to prove it, how is that different from what we term today as "virtue signalling"?

I agree to a point that this type of communication can be difficult to convey some thoughts. But, yes, I think some are playing games with these things.

Rather than deal with your terminology of "outworking" and "prove" - which I'd have to have you explain to make sure I understand your meaning - I'll try a few things:

I don't think there is any Genuine Faith ("Faith" - please pay attention to the capital F and I'll try to stay consistent) without works. I think both James and Paul teach this. I think it has become a big problem for the proper understanding of Faith to subordinate James as we do and that subordination goes at least as far back as Luther.

If our faith is not in God, then we're doing dead works in faith and w/o dead works faith w/o works is dead. There's no such thing as faith w/o works just as there is no such thing as a living body w/o breath/spirit.

If our Faith is in God, then we're doing Good Works and Faith w/o works is dead.

James is teaching us what faith and Faith is and how it functions.

We had faith in other things and were doing dead works based upon that faith.

Then we came to Christ and our faith in whatever became Faith in God and our dead works in faith became Good Works in Faith.

What Paul is doing in Rom4:2 is setting up an assumption for sake of argument to make certain we know there is this transition of faith to Faith. IMO he is addressing James who wrote well before Paul. Abraham's dead works in faith did not accomplish righteousness. Abraham's Faith in God resulted in God gifting Him righteousness. God has to gift man with righteousness because man in faith can only do dead works. But transitioning (repenting) from faith to having Faith in God must immediately have Good Works because Faith w/o works is dead.

IOW, faith in things is faith, Faith in God is Faith. And neither faith nor Faith can be separate from works. We transition from faith to Faith and from dead works to Good Works. And the only way that transition takes place is by Grace and God having done the works that were necessary to be done.

This could be smoother but hopefully you'll get the gist.

On a related note, I've watched @mailmandan and others make what I think is a mistake which I'll try to show in formula:

Faith + Obedience/Works s/b Faith/Obedience + Works.

If Faith and Obedience are two sides of the same coin (or as I've said, IMO they're virtually synonymous re: Genuine Faith - so, Genuine Faith/Obedience) then the latter formula is the correct representation.

When we start looking at merit and wages, then the actual works are necessary. But we can't do those works until we transition to Genuine Faith/Obedience, so there is no compensation due until after we transition/repent/convert from faith to Faith and begin Good Works which God has promised to reward.

So, yes, anything that suggests we don't have to do Good Works in Faith under Grace is a word game and is in error. I don't have a problem with "outworking" of Faith as I think I understand you, nor do I have a problem with "proving" of Faith in the sense of outworking and proof being essentially the same thing done by men under Grace

What I do have a problem with is any suggestion that Good Works are optional in the life of a person with Genuine Faith/Obedience in God. I also have a problem with being told I'm trying to save myself when I know I've transitioned from faith to Faith, and I know that Good Works must be a part of Genuine Faith and being under Grace.

 

[Jimbone]

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here to be honest. I think I do and am pretty sure we agree, but the blood of Jesus is applied to each of us when we are born-again. When we are spiritually resurrected by Gods power and reconciled to Him in spirit as we were created to be, but not as we were born. This is when Jesus' righteousness is given to us by God's grace, through faith, not through anything we do at all, there is nothing at all we can do to save ourselves or "get ourselves" saved. Salvation is of God least any man boasts. That is my understanding of "when" Jesus' blood is applied to us.

 

[studier]

That is what you hear, it is not what I hear. I hear James saying "my good works reveal my faith". So for me it is not 1+1 but 1x1 (so to speak).

I think I've answered this in my just prior post. If not, then please let me know.

I cannot think of any circumstance in which repentance is not required. Even if one has never heard anything and is ignorant of all things God, they still have to change their mind from no belief to believing. What's that saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Just because John doesn't mention repentance doesn't mean it is not innately implied when one understands it essentially means to change one's mind.

I agree. The way I read GJohn and understand the basic meaning of repentance, it's indicated and included throughout GJohn. The theory that's it's not there because it's unnecessary for Faith and salvation IMO reveals how far some will go to strip Faith of all meaning in the farthest swing of the pendulum to distance from "works salvation".

 

[mailmandan]

It seems pretty simple. You believe Faith is the result of hearing/obeying/believing. I see Faith as obeying/believing truth we hear. Believing and having Faith IMO are synonymous. Then contextually, it's obvious that Genuine Faith/Belief includes obedience and apart from obedience there is no Genuine Faith/Belief.

IMO the wording you used immediately brought to mind than the way Calvinists speak of God giving Faith to His elect.

Thanks for clarifying.



I agree to a point that this type of communication can be difficult to convey some thoughts. But, yes, I think some are playing games with these things.

Rather than deal with your terminology of "outworking" and "prove" - which I'd have to have you explain to make sure I understand your meaning - I'll try a few things:

I don't think there is any Genuine Faith ("Faith" - please pay attention to the capital F and I'll try to stay consistent) without works. I think both James and Paul teach this. I think it has become a big problem for the proper understanding of Faith to subordinate James as we do and that subordination goes at least as far back as Luther.

If our faith is not in God, then we're doing dead works in faith and w/o dead works faith w/o works is dead. There's no such thing as faith w/o works just as there is no such thing as a living body w/o breath/spirit.

If our Faith is in God, then we're doing Good Works and Faith w/o works is dead.

James is teaching us what faith and Faith is and how it functions.

We had faith in other things and were doing dead works based upon that faith.

Then we came to Christ and our faith in whatever became Faith in God and our dead works in faith became Good Works in Faith.

What Paul is doing in Rom4:2 is setting up an assumption for sake of argument to make certain we know there is this transition of faith to Faith. IMO he is addressing James who wrote well before Paul. Abraham's dead works in faith did not accomplish righteousness. Abraham's Faith in God resulted in God gifting Him righteousness. God has to gift man with righteousness because man in faith can only do dead works. But transitioning (repenting) from faith to having Faith in God must immediately have Good Works because Faith w/o works is dead.

IOW, faith in things is faith, Faith in God is Faith. And neither faith nor Faith can be separate from works. We transition from faith to Faith and from dead works to Good Works. And the only way that transition takes place is by Grace and God having done the works that were necessary to be done.

This could be smoother but hopefully you'll get the gist.

On a related note, I've watched @mailmandan and others make what I think is a mistake which I'll try to show in formula:

Faith + Obedience/Works s/b Faith/Obedience + Works.

If Faith and Obedience are two sides of the same coin (or as I've said, IMO they're virtually synonymous re: Genuine Faith - so, Genuine Faith/Obedience) then the latter formula is the correct representation.

When we start looking at merit and wages, then the actual works are necessary. But we can't do those works until we transition to Genuine Faith/Obedience, so there is no compensation due until after we transition/repent/convert from faith to Faith and begin Good Works which God has promised to reward.

So, yes, anything that suggests we don't have to do Good Works in Faith under Grace is a word game and is in error. I don't have a problem with "outworking" of Faith as I think I understand you, nor do I have a problem with "proving" of Faith in the sense of outworking and proof being essentially the same thing done by men under Grace

What I do have a problem with is any suggestion that Good Works are optional in the life of a person with Genuine Faith/Obedience in God. I also have a problem with being told I'm trying to save myself when I know I've transitioned from faith to Faith, and I know that Good Works must be a part of Genuine Faith and being under Grace.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should sboast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[studier]

Just in case you have been led into legalism under the term, 'commandments'.

Asking AI to clear up the misunderstanding regarding the N.C. commandments.

But that's not the question I asked to ask AI. Which shows how AI can be manipulated by the questioner.

I'm not as adept as you in using AI but here's my simple attempt:

Question of CoPilot: Does biblical faith in God include obedience to God

Answer:

Yes, biblical faith in God inherently includes obedience to Him. Throughout Scripture, faith and obedience are presented as interconnected rather than separate concepts.

For example, Hebrews 11, often called the "Faith Chapter," highlights individuals whose faith was demonstrated through their actions. Abraham’s willingness to obey God, even when asked to sacrifice his son Isaac, is cited as an example of faith in action. Similarly, James 2:17 states, "Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead," reinforcing the idea that true faith is expressed through obedience.

Jesus also emphasized this connection, saying, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15). The Apostle Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith" in Romans 1:5, showing that faith naturally leads to obedience.

Obedience is not a means to earn salvation but rather the fruit of genuine faith. It reflects trust in God’s wisdom and a willingness to follow His guidance. What are your thoughts on this relationship between faith and obedience?

My comment: Not bad. Could be better.

 

[GWH]

Every time I notice this thread it reminds me of this old hymn:

Down at the cross Where my savior died
Down where for cleansing From sin I cried
There to my heart Was the blood applied
Glory to His name

I am so wondrously Saved from my sin
Jesus so sweetly Abides within
There at the cross Where He took me in
Glory to His name

Oh, precious fountain that saves from sin
I am so glad I have entered in
There Jesus saves me and keeps me clean
Glory to His name

Come to this fountain so rich and sweet
Cast thy poor soul at thy savior's feet
Plunge in today You'll be made complete
Glory to His name

Singin' glory to His name
Glory to His name
There to my heart was the blood applied
Glory to His name!

 

[studier]

AI was restricted to a literal reading of the N.T. which means no theology or church theology.

Meaning AI is reading English translations and compiling the thinking of men?

 

[Jimbone]

it's ready, willing & able before salvation for anyone who believes in God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. at salvation, immediately.

Any repentance involved in this anywhere? What does "believe" even mean? Can we make ourselves believe? Are we in control of this "easy" process, and what is it exactly I need to "believe" about Jesus before I'm instantly saved so easily?
Look I'm asking some very basic questions about what you're saying here, but I don't want to come across like I disagree or am just trying to debate or "teach" you something.

I honestly agree with what you're saying but disagree this is how I should approach a non-believer with the gospel. (not saying you said or even suggested this, just to be clear) While this is a bare bones basic layout of how it works, only a believer could understand what you mean in truth. This break down is just WAY to obtuse to be effective as an evangelism tool to be used to speak with unbelievers with. However we are on a Christain site speaking to other believers, so my point is a little moot here, I just know when I was saved in truth by His power and my eyes were opened after 5 years of being a false convert, one of the first things that really shocked me was how little I'd ever heard about the role God the Spirit plays in the believers life, even amounst believers, so this is why I would even add this in a conversation here.

Now without eyes to see and hears to hear, we really can't "grasp" what this whole spirit things about anyway, because we are born of the flesh, or spiritually dead, and it's just not possible for us to understand something we've never "known" in any way at all. Still, I think the most used couple phrases that I used in my first 6 months of being born again were, "how have I never heard this", and "How did I not see this". So that's really why a ask more questions like this when I see people talking about how "easy" being saved is. It's not easy to see your life for what it is in truth and turn from it, although it is very simple. However it in fact takes a miracle from the Creator of everything to make it happen; all glory to Jesus. But I only add it because I would have liked to have heard it more often before I was saved, but not because I think you're "wrong" or because I just want to correct other people. I hope I didn't come across that way and do hope you have a great day.

 

[studier]

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should sboast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Pretty much as I've said.

NKJ Eph2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith/obedience, and that (salvation by grace through faith/obedience) not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of [men's] works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works [done in faith/obedience], which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Not Faith + Obedience/Works but Faith/Obedience + Works.

 

[Karlon]

Any repentance involved in this anywhere? What does "believe" even mean? Can we make ourselves believe? Are we in control of this "easy" process, and what is it exactly I need to "believe" about Jesus before I'm instantly saved so easily?
Look I'm asking some very basic questions about what you're saying here, but I don't want to come across like I disagree or am just trying to debate or "teach" you something.

I honestly agree with what you're saying but disagree this is how I should approach a non-believer with the gospel. (not saying you said or even suggested this, just to be clear) While this is a bare bones basic layout of how it works, only a believer could understand what you mean in truth. This break down is just WAY to obtuse to be effective as an evangelism tool to be used to speak with unbelievers with. However we are on a Christain site speaking to other believers, so my point is a little moot here, I just know when I was saved in truth by His power and my eyes were opened after 5 years of being a false convert, one of the first things that really shocked me was how little I'd ever heard about the role God the Spirit plays in the believers life, even amounst believers, so this is why I would even add this in a conversation here.

Now without eyes to see and hears to hear, we really can't "grasp" what this whole spirit things about anyway, because we are born of the flesh, or spiritually dead, and it's just not possible for us to understand something we've never "known" in any way at all. Still, I think the most used couple phrases that I used in my first 6 months of being born again were, "how have I never heard this", and "How did I not see this". So that's really why a ask more questions like this when I see people talking about how "easy" being saved is. It's not easy to see your life for what it is in truth and turn from it, although it is very simple. However it in fact takes a miracle from the Creator of everything to make it happen; all glory to Jesus. But I only add it because I would have liked to have heard it more often before I was saved, but not because I think you're "wrong" or because I just want to correct other people. I hope I didn't come across that way and do hope you have a great day.

if you are talking about atheists, yes, totally repent. John 9:31- 'now we know that God heareth NOT sinners, but if any man be a worshipper of God & doth his will, him He heareth". to be a worshipper of God you must repent first & become a born again Christian. believe means accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior by faith & trust. with that is obedience to God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. also, every day improving your relationship with Jesus. by free choice & free will, people choose to believe. easy? not for everyone. twas' easy for me to be become born again. study & learn Roman 10:9 "that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth & shall believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". Him refers to Jesus. then look at Ephessians 2:8,9, & 10. "for by grace are ye saved thru faith & that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, & not of works lest any man boast......". i didn't say anything about approaching a nonbeliever. when i witness to people, i slowly introduce the name of Jesus. you usually have to find the character of someone before witnessing. your eyes & ears statement: not true. God sends out His Holy Spirit to everyone with a calling. study 1st John 2:3, 4:13, 5:10. by course, there are those who are slow in the process partly because of doubting ( not totally ), they are to selfish within themselves to let any new ideas, or beliefs in, outside influences are allowed & just a lifelong conditioned response to life without Jesus. the 1 issue i had to condone with was that no one told me when you get saved, the devil is attacking you immediately to sway your beliefs. 6 months after i was saved i heard a radio pastor say that. then i kicked it in to high gear!!!! that is, believing, trusting, keeping the faith & all else.

 

[studier]

Some more attempts at Microsoft AI:

What are the possible translations of obedience of faith in Romans 1:5?

Romans 1:5 contains the phrase "obedience of faith," which has been translated in various ways across different Bible versions. Some possible translations include:​

• "Obedience to the faith" (KJV, NKJV) – This translation suggests that faith is the object of obedience, meaning people are called to obey the teachings of the faith.
• "Obedience of faith" (NASB, ESV) – This rendering implies that obedience stems from faith, highlighting faith as the source of obedience.
• "The obedience that comes from faith" (NIV) – This translation interprets faith as producing obedience, emphasizing the transformative nature of faith.
• "Obedient trust in Jesus" (MSG) – A more paraphrased version that combines faith and obedience into a trusting relationship with Christ.

MY Note: AI is looking at English translations. The MSG translation is trending into combining faith and obedience. The KJV & NKJV are prioritizing obedience. There are more potential translations of the phrase "obedience of faith".

Some deeper questioning:

What are all of the ways the genitive phrase "obedience of faith" can be translated:

The genitive phrase "obedience of faith" (ὑπακοὴν πίστεως) in Romans 1:5 can be translated in several ways, depending on how the genitive case is understood. Here are some possible interpretations:

• Objective Genitive – "Obedience to faith"
  • This translation suggests that faith is the object of obedience, meaning people are called to obey the teachings of faith.
• Subjective Genitive – "Obedience that comes from faith"
  • This interpretation sees faith as the source of obedience, implying that true faith naturally leads to obedience.
• Epexegetical Genitive – "Obedience, that is, faith"
  • This view treats faith as explaining obedience, meaning that faith itself is the obedience being described.
• Appositional Genitive – "Faithful obedience"
  • This translation merges faith and obedience into a single concept, suggesting that true faith inherently includes obedience.

My Notes: As AI says, these are "some" of the ways this phrase can be translated. There are 30+ ways it can be translated but many of them can be quickly discounted. IMO the 4 that AI listed are 4 of the best choices. Some comments:

• The translated Greek phrase is "obedience faith" - "faith" is in the Genitive Case and the base fallback translation of the Genitive is to insert "of" so "obedience [of] faith". But from there the work is to classify the actual meaning of the Genitive. The above list is a partial list of these classifications. IOW, if the translators were doing all the work they'd be translating with more words or providing indications of their interpretations for clarity. But this is simply not how translations are normally done. This is why there are multitudes of commentaries some of which do some of the necessary interpretive work.
• Most seem to interpret the phrase as a Subjective Genitive. I came to disagree based upon several factors in the NC including the way Paul uses faith and obedience interchangeably. Hebrews does the same. Then there are other factors.
• The Objective Genitive is interesting, and IMO has strengths but is not the best translation of Rom1:5 because "faith" would be better stated as "the faith" - to obey the faith would to be to obey the teachings, but this seems to be pushing the language and inserting what's not really there.
• I came some time ago to view this phrase as Epexegetical or Appositional. Based upon how Paul and Hebrews use faith and obedience as I've been saying, virtually synonymously, or interchangeably, or in parallel. my interpretive choice is Appositional.

Hopefully you'll see that I'm not making things up. I've been working on translations for many years. There's a method to the madness as they say.

 

[studier]

Example: to him that overcomes...not, you must overcome.

Seriously? I suppose we could say that Jesus will give everyone what He promises to give to the victors, but do we really think this is what He's saying?