Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[Jackson129]

Here is a question i think about that i think relates to this topic. The seeds that fall by the wayside. One is eaten by a bird instantly. One sprouts and grows bit has no root and the sun comes out and cooks it. One falls in the briars and gets choked out. And one falls into good soil and produce. Some 50 some a 100 fold. We know Jesus was talking about people of this world who hear the gospel. So the one that lands in poor soil but sprouts and grows but then dies. Thats a person who accepts the gospel and rejoices in it then after time wanders off. So at one point he was saved and the he wasent. What if that person had a heart attack before he withered away he died in a saved state I would assume? How about the one who lands in the briars he grows and sprouts but then cares for the world choke him out. What if that person had a heart attack before the world choked him out? He was in a saved state then. Then the one who lands in good ground lives 30 more years growing into a tree. So I belive he was saying you can be saved and then loose it. God knows if you are living in a saved or unsaved state. He knows everyone who is going to heaven. So if you were saved for 5 years and fell out. God knew that. It dosent mean you wernt saved for those 5 years.

 

[GWH]

I think you're harmonizing a very contested topic and revealing that proof-texting from one side of the argument doesn't work.

I also think the evidence is that not many care to consider Heb10 after they've been taught versions of security. And alternatively not many who see things like Heb10 objectively will consider Rom8 the way the security folks do.

I also think both are true so there is a way that security works but the strict security folks consider such to be works salvation but they dance around commands and active faith and obedience because Christ does everything and we basically do nothing.

What do you think about what I think?

I think the following about what you think:

1. "I think you're harmonizing a very contested topic and revealing that proof-texting from one side of the argument doesn't work.": I agree and hope rational folks on both sides of the argument will agree so far, but it remains to be seen if anyone from that point of view will seriously consider this POV.

2. "I also think the evidence is that not many care to consider Heb10 after they've been taught versions of security.": My bio is evidence or an example of being raised in a church that did not consider the sour 16.

3. "And alternatively not many who see things like Heb10 objectively will consider Rom8 the way the security folks do.": Now we arrive at the crux of the goal on this thread: Both sides consider both sides and consider with open minds what is the best harmonization.

4. "I also think both are true so there is a way that security works but the strict security folks consider such to be works salvation": Yes, they do, and I tended to think the same way, but discussion with the TULIPists on CC helped me with this clarification:

[Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him,
strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.]

5. "they dance around commands and active faith and obedience because Christ does everything and we basically do nothing": Yes,
they dance and dodge what Heb. 10:26-36 says rather than try to harmonize it with Rom. 8:38-39, so we must insist on them proposing a harmonization of divine determination and human condemnation.

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, [unless] Hebrews 10:26-36, “we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, [in which case] no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence [faith/hope of salvation];
it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Too easy?

 

[GWH]

Ok here goes lol I'll give it a try. I'm gonna tell you I dont belive in total security. Yes no one or thing in this world man demon Satan can pluck you from God's hand I believe that scripture backs it up. However there is one who can. The Father gave you to Jesus he can take you away. The idea that as a Christian we can not sin just defies what I feel in my heart. I can be tempted and I can sin. Jesus gave us two commands to love God and love others. As long as we do those two things we will never break an old testament law.(all old testament laws were based on transgressions against God or man) Coupled with you having faith in Jesus and repenting for your sins. Which we know he forgives. You are now sinless at that moment and can thus gain entry to heaven. You do not just repent once and be done with it forever like oh im good now. Not even at all. You pray and ask for forgiveness when you are convicted of sin still to this day. I ask for forgiveness of my sins even the ones I know not that I commit. The idea that you are permanently saved forever is just something I can't swallow.

Jackson, I will respond to your post item by item as I did with Studier:

1. "I don't believe in total security.": I was raised to believe in eternal security aka once saved, always saved (OSAS), but then I read the Bible completely through and discovered what I call the sour 16, which are 16 passages that make the TULIPists pucker. We are now discussing one of them, Heb. 10:26-36.

2. "Yes no one or thing in this world man demon Satan can pluck you from God's hand I believe that scripture backs it up.": Yes, I agree.

3. "However there is one who can. The Father gave you to Jesus he can take you away.": True, although I had not thought of it that way.

4. "The idea that as a Christian we can not sin just defies what I feel in my heart. I can be tempted and I can sin.": Yes, although no saint is perfect, so we depend on sharing the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith for salvation from damnation.

5. "Jesus gave us two commands to love God and love others. As long as we do those two things we will never break an old testament law.(all old testament laws were based on transgressions against God or man)": Yes, that is what both Jesus (in Matt. 22:37-40) and Paul (in Gal. 5:6 & 14) teach.

6. "Coupled with you having faith in Jesus and repenting for your sins. Which we know he forgives.": Yes, per 1 John 1:9.

7. "You are now sinless at that moment and can thus gain entry to heaven.": Well, we are forgiven sinners, but not perfect, so again, we depend on Christ's atonement to pay the penalty for sins.

8. "You do not just repent once and be done with it forever like oh im good now. Not even at all. You pray and ask for forgiveness when you are convicted of sin still to this day.": Yes, the first repentance is called conversion and is when Jesus as the Holy Spirit indwells the believer's heart, and later prayers of repentance are called confession, which is God's perfect will for sinners who thereby fully cooperate with God's will, which is called Spirit-filling.

9. "I ask for forgiveness of my sins even the ones I know not that I commit. The idea that you are permanently saved forever is just something I can't swallow.": A believer does not become unsaved by sinning, but only unfilled with the Spirit. The only sin that results in condemnation is repenting of belief in Jesus as Lord, which is called apostasy.

 

[studier]

4. "I also think both are true so there is a way that security works but the strict security folks consider such to be works salvation": Yes, they do, and I tended to think the same way, but discussion with the TULIPists on CC helped me with this clarification:

How so?

[Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph2:8-10, 2Cor5:7, Rom1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.]

I know you like this qualitative & quantitative concept, but I don't. These descriptives seem to become catchy but in the end IMO they're not good explanations and they get used frequently by posters like one on another thread to try to sound knowledgeable with false doctrine. Also, being "strengthened in the faith" is qualitative - we're weak then become strong - the more the better.

I've dealt with a few now who like to use similar terminology re: commands - prescriptive and descriptive - and it just ends up being another catchy sounding concept that really just being used to explain away what a command is.

BTW, I fixed the verse references so the system would pick them up and display the text of them (hopefully).

5. "they dance around commands and active faith and obedience because Christ does everything and we basically do nothing": Yes, they dance and dodge what Heb. 10:26-36 says rather than try to harmonize it with Rom. 8:38-39, so we must insist on them proposing a harmonization of divine determination and human condemnation.

Good luck on the insistence part. I don't know what at root this tribal denominationalism is, but it's deeply ingrained. It's troubling, and I know you've changed how you interpret Scripture, as have I, but during my changing I recall having the constant thought that I was simply and finally letting the Word speak for itself/Himself, and I still think that, but I now have to recall the concept to voice it.

I think the best anyone can do is to have those harmonizations at hand and provide them and ask pointedly and firmly, holding to the ask, why someone disagrees with it and that they explain it. There are few on the forum who basically hold to their very simple demands that others provide actual verses that say no one can walk away, for example. No opposition ever provides such Scripture. They simply dance and divert and ultimately ignore and keep posting the canned tradition.

I've kind of liked this harmonization: NKJ John3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. NKJ 1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, faith alone and love unnecessary? In the first place 3:16 is not even being interpreted properly, but faith alone, nevertheless. It's very entrenched dogma.

I guess in the end, God provided His Word as is, and His Spirit and He let's all this confusion go on. What the reason is I do not know. I only ask and work not to be subject to it and to read Him correctly and be able to convey whatever I can to whoever may care. I'm sure others are doing the same, yet disagreements clearly reign.

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, [unless] Hebrews 10:26-36, “we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, [in which case] no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence [faith/hope of salvation]; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Too easy?

No, not too easy, but it won't be accepted by many, if not most. I've read some very elaborate reasoning as to why your harmonization is wrong and I've seen many just write it off because their tribe says it's wrong. Most of the time most will be unable to explain why it's wrong but may proof-text it away or simply pull out the ad hominem and other fallacies and think they've won the argument. The fallacies seem to be natural reasoning for most and over time even developed by some self-deceived sense of perceived accomplishment.

Just do your best. At times I think our motivations and intents and efforts are judged more than our ultimate accuracies. This is no excuse to not pursue the accuracy, but such cannot be evaluated by who agrees with it. And honest objectivity is hard to find.

 

[studier]

9. "I ask for forgiveness of my sins even the ones I know not that I commit. The idea that you are permanently saved forever is just something I can't swallow.": A believer does not become unsaved by sinning, but only unfilled with the Spirit. The only sin that results in condemnation is repenting of belief in Jesus as Lord, which is called apostasy.

Yet you have mentioned 1John1:9 and confession. I would also add that over time by remaining and growing to maturity in Christ and continually seeking to please God and do His will, much of the sinning will subside. We experience more and more of the new man we were newly created to be and many things that were attractive to us will become unattractive and even disgust us. It just takes time and a continuing walk, prayer, study, and interaction with others which some find to be easier and more constructive than others do. We're also placed in the Body of Christ to provide some service and function within it. Recognizing and doing this can be trying for some, may seem odd and surprising that it's our function, but will also become very natural and fulfilling though not without hardship.

On the sinning issue, I can recall times where seemingly all of a sudden, I recognized that something that had been attractive to me was not. I know the inner battle had gone on for some time, but at a point I just naturally turned away from something and it caught me off-guard sufficiently to recognize that something had kind of surprisingly changed. Such have been the moments for me where it's Him silently saying He's with me and we are moving forward together.

As you've said, just never stop and He won't let you. It's cooperative IMO no matter who says it's not. And there are rules to the game no matter who says there aren't.

 

[studier]

Continuing work. Adding more notes (Luke10:42; Acts1:2; Acts15:7; Acts15:22):

The verb form: eklegomai (eklegō)

Definition from BDAG Lexicon (just the main points):
1. to pick out someone or someth., choose (for oneself)
2. to make a choice in accordance with significant preference, select someone/someth. for oneself,
3. gather in a crop, gather

(Mk. 13:20 NKJ) "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

(Lk. 6:13 NKJ) And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

• From His disciples, Jesus chose 12 men He named Apostles

NET Luke 9:35 Then118 a voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him!"

• The phrase "my Chosen One" is not in all manuscripts.
• Jesus, God's Son, is God's Chosen One. God chose Jesus.
  • Did God choose Jesus to be His Son or did God choose Jesus to serve Him in ministry or both or?

(Lk. 10:42 NKJ) "But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her."

• Mary chose to sit at Jesus' feet and was hearing His word, while her sister Martha was literally "being drawn away/distracted with much service." Jesus said Martha was anxious and troubled concerning many things and Mary chose the good portion/share which will not be taken away from her.
  • This "portion/share" is spoken of here: NET Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints' inheritance in the light. (literally: "...for the share/portion of the inheritance of the holy ones...")
  • So, while Jesus Himself was right there, one sister was being anxious and troubled with things and drawn away and distracted. But Mary chose to sit at Jesus feet and hear what He had to say which was providing for her a share of something eternal with others.
  • It seems we get to choose what's eternally important and what's eternally important is to hear and learn from Jesus Christ - - "the good share that will not be taken away from us.

(Lk. 14:7 NKJ) So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:

• Men chose the best seats at a wedding feast

(Jn. 6:70 NKJ) Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

(Jn. 13:18 NKJ) "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

(Jn. 15:16 NKJ) "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

(Jn. 15:19 NKJ) "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

(Acts 1:2 NKJ) until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

• Jesus chose His Apostles

(Acts 1:24 NKJ) And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen

(Acts 6:5 NKJ) And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch,

• Many disciples chose 7 from among them to serve among them and the Apostles.

(Acts 13:17 NKJ) "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.

(Acts 15:7 NKJ) And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

• Peter said God chose him to present the Message - the Gospel - to the Gentiles to hear and believe.

(Acts 15:22 NKJ) Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

• The Apostles and the Elders together with the whole church at Jerusalem decided to send men chosen from them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.
  • So, the Apostles and Elders and the whole congregation chose men from the congregation to send out with Paul and Barnabas.

(Acts 15:25 NKJ) it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

(1 Cor. 1:27 NKJ) But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

(1 Cor. 1:28 NKJ) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

(Eph. 1:4 NKJ) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

(Jas. 2:5 NKJ) Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

 

[GWH]

How so?

I know you like this qualitative & quantitative concept, but I don't. These descriptives seem to become catchy but in the end IMO they're not good explanations and they get used frequently by posters like one on another thread to try to sound knowledgeable with false doctrine. Also, being "strengthened in the faith" is qualitative - we're weak then become strong - the more the better.

I've dealt with a few now who like to use similar terminology re: commands - prescriptive and descriptive - and it just ends up being another catchy sounding concept that really just being used to explain away what a command is.

BTW, I fixed the verse references so the system would pick them up and display the text of them (hopefully).

Good luck on the insistence part. I don't know what at root this tribal denominationalism is, but it's deeply ingrained. It's troubling, and I know you've changed how you interpret Scripture, as have I, but during my changing I recall having the constant thought that I was simply and finally letting the Word speak for itself/Himself, and I still think that, but I now have to recall the concept to voice it.

I think the best anyone can do is to have those harmonizations at hand and provide them and ask pointedly and firmly, holding to the ask, why someone disagrees with it and that they explain it. There are few on the forum who basically hold to their very simple demands that others provide actual verses that say no one can walk away, for example. No opposition ever provides such Scripture. They simply dance and divert and ultimately ignore and keep posting the canned tradition.

I've kind of liked this harmonization: NKJ John3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. NKJ 1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, faith alone and love unnecessary? In the first place 3:16 is not even being interpreted properly, but faith alone, nevertheless. It's very entrenched dogma.

I guess in the end, God provided His Word as is, and His Spirit and He let's all this confusion go on. What the reason is I do not know. I only ask and work not to be subject to it and to read Him correctly and be able to convey whatever I can to whoever may care. I'm sure others are doing the same, yet disagreements clearly reign.

No, not too easy, but it won't be accepted by many, if not most. I've read some very elaborate reasoning as to why your harmonization is wrong and I've seen many just write it off because their tribe says it's wrong. Most of the time most will be unable to explain why it's wrong but may proof-text it away or simply pull out the ad hominem and other fallacies and think they've won the argument. The fallacies seem to be natural reasoning for most and over time even developed by some self-deceived sense of perceived accomplishment.

Just do your best. At times I think our motivations and intents and efforts are judged more than our ultimate accuracies. This is no excuse to not pursue the accuracy, but such cannot be evaluated by who agrees with it. And honest objectivity is hard to find.

How so? Because their insistence on the inability of the natural man's volition to have any part in salvation made me specify how that is achieved without it being meritorious, based on GW such as "what do you have that you were not given?"

I see you don't like the "qualitative & quantitative concept", but I don't understand why not, nor do I see it being used by any other posters. Being "strengthened in the faith" is quantitative or incremental; each toning of spiritual muscle gradually building moral mass.

I see you also don't like the viewing GW as "prescriptive and descriptive", and again it has nothing to do with being "catchy sounding", but rather with explaining why GW for all to be saved is resistible.

Thanks for fixing the verse references so the text is displayed (hopefully).

It is gratifying to find folks like yourself on CC who seem sincerely desirous of LGW, even if it means amending their understanding of long-held or deeply ingrained doctrines, because they realize that fellowship based on agreement regarding the creed is more important than getting every detail of didachaic doctrines exactly correct. As you said, "our motivations and intents and efforts are judged more than our ultimate accuracies". However, from the beginning of my independent pilgrimage through Scripture I have had great satisfaction with each "aha!" moment as dots were connected and harmonized.

I agree with "the best anyone can do is to have those harmonizations at hand" and that there are those on CC who demand that GW says something exactly, as though they lack logic, semantic ability or how truth may be implicit. I guess they are spiritually insecure and unwilling to walk by fallible/humble faith.

I also like and agree with your harmonization of John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." with 1 John 3:15, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." It is amazing that for some it seems difficult to connect faith with love.

Yes, God provided His Word/Spirit and allows confusion, because forcing faith would nullify humanness, personhood and moral/love responsibility. Although disagreements clearly reign on UGE, we can try/hope to do better on this thread, because those uninterested in harmonization will not want to participate, preferring their proof-texting and ad hominems. Yes, such fallacies manifest the very natural man they so despise. Yes, honest objectivity is hard to find.

Re "I would also add that over time by remaining and growing to maturity in Christ and continually seeking to please God and do His will, much of the sinning will subside. We experience more and more of the new man we were newly created to be and many things that were attractive to us will become unattractive and even disgust us. It just takes time and a continuing walk, prayer, study, and interaction with others which some find to be easier and more constructive than others do. We're also placed in the Body of Christ to provide some service and function within it. Recognizing and doing this can be trying for some, may seem odd and surprising that it's our function, but will also become very natural and fulfilling though not without hardship.": Amen. This stage of spiritual dynamics called sanctification as we learn to cooperate with GW occurs between conversion and glorification.

BTW, Jackson's post #381 is for you to answer.

 

[studier]

@Jackson129 Sorry I forgot to copy you on post #385

 

[studier]

How so? Because their insistence on the inability of the natural man's volition to have any part in salvation made me specify how that is achieved without it being meritorious, based on GW such as "what do you have that you were not given?"

Thanks.

I see you don't like the "qualitative & quantitative concept", but I don't understand why not, nor do I see it being used by any other posters. Being "strengthened in the faith" is quantitative or incremental; each toning of spiritual muscle gradually building moral mass.

Not to mention names, but the main poster on UGE uses such terminology a lot. It's just not impressive and IMO is scholarly and, in many cases, pseudo-scholarly. At times IMO it is off-putting and stops my attention from focusing on the real content. I also find that some immediately get rebellious against anything that sounds scholarly or by anyone who may think of themselves as such. Obviously, you and others can think differently.

When Jesus speaks of "great faith" do you think he's speaking of quantity. So, faith as a mustard seed and powerful is quantity? Incremental does not always mean quantity. Faith is compared to gold in the Text - fine gold which means quality. Do a little research on muscle. Here's a quick search result re: muscle quality vs. quantity: Muscle quality and quantity are both important factors in determining strength and performance.Muscle quality refers to the actual makeup, structure, strength, and ability to prolong exercise and/or performance. It is an important factor for elite athletes. Muscle quantity is also important, but not as much as muscle quality. Two people whose muscles are equally big may have different levels of strength, and even within one person there can be differences.

Your choice.

I see you also don't like the viewing GW as "prescriptive and descriptive", and again it has nothing to do with being "catchy sounding", but rather with explaining why GW for all to be saved is resistible.

Again, your choice. My same comments as above apply. In this media I'm finding such words to be used mainly by those who distract and divert from truth. They're used frequently in more consistently in scholarly articles, but this is not that realm. It's clearer IMO to describe the matter with a verb than an adjective that ultimately can be used by some to mean whatever they want it to mean or whatever they think it may mean and thus itself may need to be defined by the user if the reader grasps that it needs to be asked.

Will return later to continue.

 

[studier]

@GWH I read the rest of your post. Nothing more to add or comment.

 

[GWH]

@GWH I read the rest of your post. Nothing more to add or comment.

Okay. I replied to Jackson #380, so it is your turn to reply to his #381, please.
Then I will continue our original discussion. Thanks.

 

[studier]

Here is a question i think about that i think relates to this topic. The seeds that fall by the wayside. One is eaten by a bird instantly. One sprouts and grows bit has no root and the sun comes out and cooks it. One falls in the briars and gets choked out. And one falls into good soil and produce. Some 50 some a 100 fold. We know Jesus was talking about people of this world who hear the gospel. So the one that lands in poor soil but sprouts and grows but then dies. Thats a person who accepts the gospel and rejoices in it then after time wanders off. So at one point he was saved and the he wasent. What if that person had a heart attack before he withered away he died in a saved state I would assume? How about the one who lands in the briars he grows and sprouts but then cares for the world choke him out. What if that person had a heart attack before the world choked him out? He was in a saved state then. Then the one who lands in good ground lives 30 more years growing into a tree. So I belive he was saying you can be saved and then loose it. God knows if you are living in a saved or unsaved state. He knows everyone who is going to heaven. So if you were saved for 5 years and fell out. God knew that. It dosent mean you wernt saved for those 5 years.

There are of course many interpretations. I'll give you my thoughts and I'm working from Luke8:

1. Your hypothetical death situation isn't discussed in these verses so I wouldn't impose it on them. These verses are speaking of those who live through the stated experiences.
2. The only ones who are saved are the productive ones because for one thing Genuine Faith at minimum abides and endures and does Good Works. I don't think God's Children given time here are unproductive. The various stated productivities do say there will be different amounts of productivity.
3. For your hypothetical death matter, I'd be asking about productivity from Genuine Faith before death.
4. For belief and a quick death, I'd go to instruction like the thief on the cross for example.

 

[GWH]

Okay, let us return to considering how to harmonize the texts that I shared in the first example:

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

It was proposed that “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 may/must refer to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning
by repudiating his/her saving faith, because Paul presumably wrote both statements and would not contradict himself. This is an example of the fact that the Bible was NOT written systematically, so readers need to harmonize various statements regarding topics.

Unless someone else joins the discussion, I will suggest another example or couplet of Scriptures to harmonize, but it would be good for this dialectical attempt if we could recruit a reasonable person from the TULIP side of the aisle to share that POV so we will not be accused of bias, so feel free to invite such a person you have encountered.

 

[John146]

Okay, let us return to considering how to harmonize the texts that I shared in the first example:

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

It was proposed that “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 may/must refer to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning
by repudiating his/her saving faith, because Paul presumably wrote both statements and would not contradict himself. This is an example of the fact that the Bible was NOT written systematically, so readers need to harmonize various statements regarding topics.

Unless someone else joins the discussion, I will suggest another example or couplet of Scriptures to harmonize, but it would be good for this dialectical attempt if we could recruit a reasonable person from the TULIP side of the aisle to share that POV so we will not be accused of bias, so feel free to invite such a person you have encountered.

Harmonize scripture by rightly dividing the word of truth. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. We should not place ourselves within every scripture. We need to understand to whom the particular scripture is written. Who is the audience of Romans? Who is the audience of Hebrews? They are not the same.

 

[Jackson129]

There are of course many interpretations. I'll give you my thoughts and I'm working from Luke8:

1. Your hypothetical death situation isn't discussed in these verses so I wouldn't impose it on them. These verses are speaking of those who live through the stated experiences.
2. The only ones who are saved are the productive ones because for one thing Genuine Faith at minimum abides and endures and does Good Works. I don't think God's Children given time here are unproductive. The various stated productivities do say there will be different amounts of productivity.
3. For your hypothetical death matter, I'd be asking about productivity from Genuine Faith before death.
4. For belief and a quick death, I'd go to instruction like the thief on the cross for example.

Ok I see that the death part isint mentioned so leave it out. I guess I was wondering are the ones who grew for awhile saved during that time? Even though they wandered off or got chocked by the cares of the world does it change the fact that they were saved for a time?

 

[Jackson129]

Sorry am on lunch will read though what to respond to when I get home

 

[Jackson129]

Okay, let us return to considering how to harmonize the texts that I shared in the first example:

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

It was proposed that “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 may/must refer to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning
by repudiating his/her saving faith, because Paul presumably wrote both statements and would not contradict himself. This is an example of the fact that the Bible was NOT written systematically, so readers need to harmonize various statements regarding topics.

Unless someone else joins the discussion, I will suggest another example or couplet of Scriptures to harmonize, but it would be good for this dialectical attempt if we could recruit a reasonable person from the TULIP side of the aisle to share that POV so we will not be accused of bias, so feel free to invite such a person you have encountered.

Ok so do you want me to start at the T and then you respond?

 

[GWH]

Ok so do you want me to start at the T and then you respond?

I am beginning our study by sharing Scriptures frequently cited by TULIPists against belief in MFW.

The next passage I have in mind is the one you referred to earlier in John's gospel:

John 10:27-29 – "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my Father's hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Perhaps it is appropriate to compare that with this from John's epistle:

1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

How can these statements/teachings be harmonized? (I think you already did so previously in #380 :^)

 

[GWH]

Harmonize scripture by rightly dividing the word of truth. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. We should not place ourselves within every scripture. We need to understand to whom the particular scripture is written. Who is the audience of Romans? Who is the audience of Hebrews? They are not the same.

Yes, harmonizing = rightly dividing (including discerning whom God intends to receive the message).
Please share how you would do such for my second example in post #380 (which is regarding John :^).
Thanks for your input.

 

[GWH]

Yes, harmonizing = rightly dividing (including discerning whom God intends to receive the message).
Please share how you would do such for my second example in post #380 (which is regarding John :^).
Thanks for your input.

Oops! The second example/case/couplet is in #398 to Jackson.