At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?
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Something you might consider is that the faith by which we are saved is not man's, but Christ's, which faith, He freely imputes spiritually to those He saves upon becoming born again, otherwise, it simply couldn't be by grace. Anything different than that would be to try to force the square peg of the faith of man, into the round hole of the grace of God - they just won't fit, with one contradicting the other in some way. However, not only faith but works also WERE prerequisites for salvation, but both having been fully and successfully achieved by Christ, making Him alone (not us) the Savior (singular) as scripture clearly states. Grace could only become true grace and be given freely, because of the faith AND the works of Christ with nothing left for those to be saved to accomplish.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
No, you misunderstand the verses. We are saved solely through/by Christ - He having chosen us for salvation and saving us - as He alone holds the title of Savior - we do not. When we receive "grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith", we have ALREADY become saved, with that being some byproducts from it. Verse 6 informs that we are of His called, and being His called, those He saves. All things pertaining to salvation are given freely unto us by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God, fully and completely as a gift, to include our faith. We are but beneficiaries.
[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
But then you put the cart before the horse by saying our faith is the means of acquiring grace in response to more or less me quoting scripture ie. saved by grace through faith. If you don't think the scripture is meaning:
.... then why would you think I'm saying that?
Grace is what saves us, faith is the result of that salvation. Faith grows on the basis of grace utilizing the faith you already have and that faith being applied. How do you know you have faith? (which is what James is on about, not how are you saved) You will produce the works of God that succeed in overcoming the evil and sin within and without and not your own works which will prove burdensome to keep up and ultimately fail.
.... then why would you think I'm saying that?
Grace is what saves us, faith is the result of that salvation. Faith grows on the basis of grace utilizing the faith you already have and that faith being applied. How do you know you have faith? (which is what James is on about, not how are you saved) You will produce the works of God that succeed in overcoming the evil and sin within and without and not your own works which will prove burdensome to keep up and ultimately fail.
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No one is going to Hell for their sins...
The Blood was applied before you were born.
Applied at this point!
Note! “It is finished.”
At that moment, it was made known that everyone's sins had been atoned for on the Cross!
No one's sins will be mentioned at the final judgment of the unbeliever!
Unbelievers will be evaluated and condemned by going over the record of their works. Not their sins!
We are not saved by works. (works = pluraility).
Works back then was a devised religious system of assigning deeds for men to do, as their means to earn their salvation by doing them.
But?
We are saved by one work!
Not works.
One work alone!
This work!
It's not complex.
Just hidden until we are shown!
grace and peace ..........
The Blood was applied before you were born.
Applied at this point!
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture
would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there,
so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant,
and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.”
With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30
Note! “It is finished.”
At that moment, it was made known that everyone's sins had been atoned for on the Cross!
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
No one's sins will be mentioned at the final judgment of the unbeliever!
Unbelievers will be evaluated and condemned by going over the record of their works. Not their sins!
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. Revelation 20:12
We are not saved by works. (works = pluraility).
Works back then was a devised religious system of assigning deeds for men to do, as their means to earn their salvation by doing them.
But?
We are saved by one work!
Not works.
One work alone!
This work!
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
John 6:28-29
It's not complex.
Just hidden until we are shown!
grace and peace ..........
Sorry, but I'm not sure that I'm understanding you, and/or that you're understanding me. To be clear, I am NOT saying our faith is the means by which grace is acquired; instead, I am saying there is only one faith - Christ's faith - though which it was made possible for the Father's grace be dispensed unto His chosen. Only by Christ's faithfulness to the Father, through the successful completion of His ministry here, was grace unto salvation made possible - Christ's faith is imputed to those He saves, by which, they come to faith in Him as Savior. In other words, regarding salvation, it was all by Christ, nothing by us - we are but beneficiaries.
Again, to be clear, I think there are two faiths in view: Christ's faith and our faith. Grace would not be possible without Christ first having been perfectly faithful in satisfying the Father's requirements. Christ's faith is also righteousness itself. When Christ's faith is imputed to those He saves, His righteousness is also imputed to them with His faith - thus making them perfectly righteous in the Father's eyes. That it is freely imputed to them as a gift - that they can do nothing to earn or acquire it - is God's grace. So, our salvation is by God's grace through Christ's faith, not through our faith, but our faith comes by that.
Again, to be clear, I think there are two faiths in view: Christ's faith and our faith. Grace would not be possible without Christ first having been perfectly faithful in satisfying the Father's requirements. Christ's faith is also righteousness itself. When Christ's faith is imputed to those He saves, His righteousness is also imputed to them with His faith - thus making them perfectly righteous in the Father's eyes. That it is freely imputed to them as a gift - that they can do nothing to earn or acquire it - is God's grace. So, our salvation is by God's grace through Christ's faith, not through our faith, but our faith comes by that.
Not that I'm agreeing with the assumptions of post, but for argument's sake, how can someone respond positively as you say if they first don't have the faith that would lead them to respond positively? In other words, wouldn't they first need to have faith present within themselves to do so?
Regarding Rom 10:17, it says "faith by hearing" but then the next verse says some did hear yet did not obey the gospel. Why - both heard - what caused some to obeyed and some not? The difference was that those who obeyed had been given faith.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Regarding Rom 10:17, it says "faith by hearing" but then the next verse says some did hear yet did not obey the gospel. Why - both heard - what caused some to obeyed and some not? The difference was that those who obeyed had been given faith.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
I know you were not saying that. You were saying I'm saying that which is simply not true and I could not understand how you could come up with that thinking.
I somewhat I agree with what you're saying but I still fail to see what that has to do with what I was originally talking about.
Faith comes from the word. It is the word alive in us that generates faith. Faith is "supernatural", it is not something we generate from ourselves.
Therefore the question that James is dealing with is "how do you know you have genuine faith and not simply one's claim to believe something?" James is not dealing with "how are you saved?" (not directly) which, is what so many try to make it about. The answer is, if you have faith, the works of God will flow out from you proving the validity of the claim that one has faith. If the works of God are not flowing from you, if you are not overcoming the evil and sin of this world, if you are not growing to look more like Christ, one degree of glory to the next, then one needs to question their faith and/or even if they have it? If one does not have faith at all, then one is not saved and they need the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
The issue in James is the relationship between faith and works not whose faith or how we are saved. Genuine, saving faith produces works that are eternal because they are the works of God that he prepared for us (Ephesians 2:10). They are not added to our faith, they are the result of our faith.
I somewhat I agree with what you're saying but I still fail to see what that has to do with what I was originally talking about.
Faith comes from the word. It is the word alive in us that generates faith. Faith is "supernatural", it is not something we generate from ourselves.
Therefore the question that James is dealing with is "how do you know you have genuine faith and not simply one's claim to believe something?" James is not dealing with "how are you saved?" (not directly) which, is what so many try to make it about. The answer is, if you have faith, the works of God will flow out from you proving the validity of the claim that one has faith. If the works of God are not flowing from you, if you are not overcoming the evil and sin of this world, if you are not growing to look more like Christ, one degree of glory to the next, then one needs to question their faith and/or even if they have it? If one does not have faith at all, then one is not saved and they need the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
The issue in James is the relationship between faith and works not whose faith or how we are saved. Genuine, saving faith produces works that are eternal because they are the works of God that he prepared for us (Ephesians 2:10). They are not added to our faith, they are the result of our faith.
I agree with everything here, like, totally, for sure.
If works is the evidence of faith, and works are what will be examined, then the works which are examined will be conducted within an objective of either a positive finding of the presence of faith or the contrary negative finding.
If works is the evidence of faith, and works are what will be examined, then the works which are examined will be conducted within an objective of either a positive finding of the presence of faith or the contrary negative finding.
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To have Christ is to have faith. Our faith does not save anyone, nor did I say that it does; however, it does accompany salvation/being born-again as one of the fruits of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that is what I did say. Christ's faithfulness to the Father on the other hand, but not our faith, brought forth salvation and with it, the grace that it is given to those so chosen for salvation, without which, no one could have become saved.
This is what you originally said:
""You're right, we're not saved by faith only, we are saved by grace working through faith."
My point was that the faith that brought forth grace, and hence, salvation, was Christ's faith, not ours.
Anyway, at this point we're going around in circles so not much point in continuing further but thanks for the
discussion.
""You're right, we're not saved by faith only, we are saved by grace working through faith."
My point was that the faith that brought forth grace, and hence, salvation, was Christ's faith, not ours.
Anyway, at this point we're going around in circles so not much point in continuing further but thanks for the
discussion.
