Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

Why do you assume that they were not His to begin with? Would that not be trying to tell God what to do or bring about?

I am using the words God told Moshe which doesn't allow me to assume anything. God said they choose so that must mean they chose to join.

 

[Cameron143]

No, God calls that:

cooperation with His POS = satisfing His requirement/condition for salvation = accepting His grace through faith = reflecting His love = seeking Him = inviting Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below

From Matthew

1. Repenting (4:17, F),
2. Recognizing one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
3. Being righteous (5:20, W)
4. Loving your enemies (5:44, W)
5. Serving God (6:24&33, W)
6. Entering the narrow gate (7:13, F)
7. Doing God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
8. Hearing and acting (7:24, F&W)
9. Confessing Jesus (10:32, W)
10. Loving Jesus (10:37, F)
11. Giving one' life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
12. Having no doubt (11:6, F)
13. Coming to Jesus (11:28, F)
14. Learning from Jesus (11:29, W)
15. Being for Jesus (12:30, F)
16. Understanding (13:23, F)
17. Being good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
18. Valuing salvation (13:44-46, F)
19. Believing Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
20. Becoming humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
21. Forgiving others (18:35, W)
22. Giving to the poor (19:21, W)
23. Following Jesus (19:21&29, F)
24. Yielding fruit (21:43, W)
25. Dressing appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
26. Loving God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
27. Holding out until the end (24:13, F)
28. Keeping awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
29. Being ready (24:44, F&W)
30. Being trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
31. Helping Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
32. Being righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)

More from Mark

33. Accepting the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believing the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receiving baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke

1. Being hated (6:22-23, W)
2. Lending (6:35, W)
3. Judging not (6:37, W)
4. Inviting the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
5. Using wealth wisely (16:9, W)
6. Standing firm (21:19, F)

From John

1. Being born again (3:3&6, F)
2. Coming to the light (3:21, F)
3. Obeying the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
4. Drinking living water (4:14, F)
5. Heeding Jesus (5:24, W)
6. Doing right (5:29, W)
7. Working for the food of life (6:27, W)
8. Partaking of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
9. Eating the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
10. Dwelling within the truth (8:31&35, W)
11. Hating self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
12. Accepting Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
13. Following Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
14. Dwelling in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
15. Heeding his command (15:10-12, F)
16. Knowing God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
17. Believing Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)

From Acts

1. Calling on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
2. Repenting and being baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
3. Believing in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
4. Believing in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
5. Repenting and turning to God (26:20, F)

From Romans

1. Having faith (1:17, F)
2. Persisting in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
3. Obeying the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
4. Having faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
5. Confessing Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
6. Calling on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)

From 1 Corinthians

1. Believing (1:21, F)
2. Holding firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)

From 2 Corinthians

1. Repenting (7:10, F)

You call it cooperation, which negates grace.

I have no problem with God effectuating salvation in any way He desires. But once God predicated salvation upon grace, works are antithetical to salvation. All the things you mention are indeed part of and accompany salvation, but if salvation is indeed by grace, they cannot be the producer of salvation, but the result of salvation. Otherwise, salvation is predicated on men's action, and nullify grace.

 

[BillyBob]

I am using the words God told Moshe which doesn't allow me to assume anything. God said they choose so that must mean they chose to join.

And there you go! It was entirely their choice. God had absolutely nothing to do with it! After creation He just sits wringing his hands and hopes for the best.

 

[GWH]

You call it cooperation, which negates grace.

I have no problem with God effectuating salvation in any way He desires. But once God predicated salvation upon grace, works are antithetical to salvation. All the things you mention are indeed part of and accompany salvation, but if salvation is indeed by grace, they cannot be the producer of salvation, but the result of salvation. Otherwise, salvation is predicated on men's action, and nullify grace.

Do not call anything negation that God has deemed cooperation (Acts 10:15).

The point I was hoping everyone would learn by the list I posted is that we should not be anal about what we call GRFS,
as long as we realize that salvation cannot be merited/earned apart from God's grace, which is why it is obtained "by faith
from first to last" (Rom. 1:17).

IOW, we should not divorce faith that saves from faith that sanctifies. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[lrs68]

And there you go! It was entirely their choice. God had absolutely nothing to do with it! After creation He just sits wringing his hands and hopes for the best.

I don't recall saying that but I am amazed how you just write things like your post because what God told Moshe doesn't align with your personal doctrine.

 

[studier]

Not just present himself guilty, but also presents himself justified. God simply rubber stamps men's choices.

God justifies and only God.

If you choose to call that rubber stamping, I guess we can work with it. God offers entry into His Kingdom of His Elect to those who will to come. I guess Faith in His Son is the required passport which He stamps when He sees Faith.

It actually doesn't sound much different than the invite to the King's Son's wedding feast.

 

[Cameron143]

Do not call anything negation that God has deemed cooperation (Acts 10:15).

The point I was hoping everyone would learn by the list I posted is that we should not be anal about what we call GRFS,
as long as we realize that salvation cannot be merited/earned apart from God's grace, which is why it is obtained "by faith
from first to last" (Rom. 1:17).

IOW, we should not divorce faith that saves from faith that sanctifies. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

You are convoluting the issue now. Grace, by definition, is non-meritorious. Works, by definition, are meritorious. This is the teaching of Romans 4:1-5.

 

[Cameron143]

God justifies and only God.

If you choose to call that rubber stamping, I guess we can work with it. God offers entry into His Kingdom of His Elect to those who will to come. I guess Faith in His Son is the required passport which He stamps when He sees Faith.

It actually doesn't sound much different than the invite to the King's Son's wedding feast.

I agree with your initial statement, but I disagree with how you come to the conclusion. You agree that God justifies, but make justification incumbent on the choices of men. You limit the actions of God to the whims of men. God is able to offer salvation, but unable to unilaterally effect salvation. The Bible is replete with examples otherwise. And your view actually negates grace as the impetus of salvation.

 

[studier]

You simply want to convolute the issue. If faith results from the activity of men, salvation is a matter of choice; thus, it is in the hands of men to decide. If faith results from the activity of God, it is God Himself who does the choosing

Back at you, as they say.

Faith results from God's activity of providing a message to have faith in. This is quite clear in Rom10.

Men must decide whether or not to believe it. So, yes it is in their hands to decide. This is want makes them accountable.

It's pretty simple.

 

[GWH]

You are convoluting the issue now. Grace, by definition, is non-meritorious. Works, by definition, are meritorious. This is the teaching of Romans 4:1-5.

Not so! And this truth is something y'all tulipists have helped me understand more clearly.

The TOP in Romans is that works are NOT meritorious!

This includes the works in the list that I posted.
Good works are fruit of the HS and motivated by faith/love for God (Eph. 2:8-10)!

 

[Cameron143]

Back at you, as they say.

Faith results from God's activity of providing a message to have faith in. This is quite clear in Rom10.

Men must decide whether or not to believe it. So, yes it is in their hands to decide. This is want makes them accountable.

It's pretty simple.

You have faith as an action of men. Romans 10 says it is the result of the action of God. So does Romans 4:1-5.

 

[Cameron143]

Not so! And this truth is something y'all tulipists have helped me understand more clearly.

The TOP in Romans is that works are NOT meritorious!

This includes the works in the list that I posted.
Good works are fruit of the HS and motivated by faith/love for God (Eph. 2:8-10)!

If the works are the result of the activity of the Spirit, then the cause of the works are God, and not man. Hence, as I stated previously, they are the result of salvation, and not its cause. One can't be being helped by the Spirit apart from the Spirit. Which is it? You are now making a claim of both.

 

[Kroogz]

Did Cameron say that? Why couldn't God's gift of faith to his elect produce the necessary faith in him?

Do YOU have faith ? Or is God producing your faith?

 

[Magenta]

Back at you, as they say.

Faith results from God's activity of providing a message to have faith in. This is quite clear in Rom10.

Men must decide whether or not to believe it. So, yes it is in their hands to decide. This is want makes them accountable.

It's pretty simple.

What makes them accountable is they know God exists. You still have the person who hears the message as foolishness deciding to believe it. The person who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, you have doing what Scripture says they cannot. But this does not bother you. Your bad tree brings forth good fruit even though Jesus said it was impossible. Quite the parlour trick!

 

[GWH]

If the works are the result of the activity of the Spirit, then the cause of the works are God, and not man. Hence, as I stated previously, they are the result of salvation, and not its cause. One can't be being helped by the Spirit apart from the Spirit. Which is it? You are now making a claim of both.

Yes, both God's initiation and sinners' cooperation/faith result in salvation and should not be divorced.
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime. Saving faith is possible for all morally accountable souls, because God is just (Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, both God's initiation and sinners' cooperation/faith result in salvation and should not be divorced.
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime. Saving faith is possible for all morally accountable souls, because God is just (Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

More conflating. You are now lumping in sanctification with salvation. Try to stay on point. I'm not talking about sanctification. I'm talking about salvation and the role of God in it.
Saving faith is only possible for those who are free to acquire it. Until you reconcile what God has said concerning the nature of the fallen natural man and the nature of salvation, you will continue to misunderstand it.

 

[Magenta]

More conflating. You are now lumping in sanctification with salvation. Try to stay on point. I'm not talking about sanctification. I'm talking about salvation and the role of God in it.
Saving faith is only possible for those who are free to acquire it. Until you reconcile what God has said concerning the nature of the fallen natural man and the nature of salvation, you will continue to misunderstand it.

They can't stay on point. Then we are accused of refusing to deal with a plethora of irrelevant Scriptures
when reams of verses that have zero to do with the fallen nature of man being able to do what Jesus says
is not possible. So many lies. It is a constant barrage! They tell bald-faced lies and then say you are at fault.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Righteousness is imputed when a person believes. This truth is borne out in both OT and NT:

Genesis 15:

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him [Abraham], saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

For some reason, some folks believe faith is some sort of "works" on the part of man even though God clearly states that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

...

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Scripture plainly states that salvation is wholly by God's grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Clearly salvation is wholly the gift of God according to Eph 2 ... and faith ≠ works according to Rom 4.


The problem results from erroneously believing faith is works when God plainly tells us faith is not works.
.

 

[Magenta]

I’ve never read so many differing and unbiblical views.

Which of these questions do you answer "yes" to?

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[Magenta]

I’ve never read so many differing and unbiblical views.

How many of these Biblical truths do you disagree with?

Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).