Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

 

[Kroogz]

I disagree that man created in God's likeness was left without the ability to know of God's existence,

This comment will get you the boot with the calvies.

According to the calvies we can know about His creative abilities. God forbids us from knowing about His salvation abilities.

We can know He created the dung beetle, but we have no chance knowing He created a salvation Plan.

Silly stuff.

 

[Magenta]

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths. Praise God if Jesus has set you free!

 

[GWH]

Psalm 19 verse 1

Which is why all sinners have no excuse for rejecting God (Rom. 1:20).

 

[GWH]

Nowhere is free will found, so we still come out ahead.

Just because one has zero discernment regarding the natural man man compared to the
spiritual man, does not dismiss the plethora of teachings regarding the unregenerated person.
Like you are blind to everything the Bible says about the state of man and his unregenerated heart?
If that is the case you are worse off than I suspected.

And nowhere is Magenta mentioned, so where does that leave you?

 

[Magenta]

The phrase "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth" appears once in the Bible, specifically
in Genesis 1:1. I suppose certain free will proponents must reject that also since it is said only once.

But the smoke and mirrors they devilishly devise to try to confuse the matter just exposes them for who they serve.

It is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

 

[GWH]

The phrase "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth" appears once in the Bible, specifically
in Genesis 1:1. I suppose certain free will proponents must reject that also since it is said only once.

But the smoke and mirrors they devilishly devise to try to confuse the matter just exposes them for who they serve.

It is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

Colossians 1:15-16

 

[studier]

John 1:4-5
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
NIV

My question is this: What exactly is this "darkness" that didn't comprehend the light?

Firstly, what NIV version are you using? Here's the newer 2011 version:

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome1 it. (Jn. 1:4-5 NIV)

 

[Magenta]

Firstly, what NIV version are you using? Here's the newer 2011 version:

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome1 it. (Jn. 1:4-5 NIV)

darkness
σκοτία (skotia)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4653: Darkness; fig: spiritual darkness. From skotos; dimness, obscurity.

overcome
κατέλαβεν (katelaben)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 2638: From kata and lambano; to take eagerly, i.e. Seize, possess, etc.

You have just refuted your own position. That is kind of funny!

 

[Rufus]

Well, I would amend your statement as follows:

Free will isn't about the majority of what's being discussed for the past 100 pages.
Free Will per the OT is about choosing right or wrong (Gen. 3:1-5, Deut. 30:19).
Free will per Jesus is about the ability to seek after God (Matt. 7:7) and accept Him as Savior (Matt. 23:37).
Free Will is all about when God comes to a person, awakens them, manifests Himself to a person that person can accept or reject God.

Really!? Does God "awaken them" before or after they exercised their "freewill" to repent and believe the gospel?

And Mat 7:7 does not teach anything about man's "ability to seek after God". What it does teach is man's moral/spiritual responsibility or duty t seek after Him. This is a classic case of you reading "ability" into the text. You excel at eisegesis!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

False Equivalency! Was Cameron talking about God's judgment or God's gospel of salvation? Yes, the final arbiter on Judgement Day will be Christ, but is Christ the final arbiter of man's eternal destiny prior to the Day of the Lord? Or is the sinner in charge of his eternal destiny in this age?

“Or is the sinner in charge of his eternal destiny in this age?”

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If they humble themselves and listen to Jesus yeah they are actually he gave us that choice to be saved gave the choice to everyone

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭

weve all served sin now it’s time to serve god and live

“I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have ( inthe past )yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;

even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we refuse to listen to the word telling us though and don’t believe it then we’ll never have a choice we won’t even acknowledge there is one

It seems the sinner is off course and needs to correct so they don’t run off the cliff …..if only someone had come and told them the truth and then called them to believe him and follow him home .

“Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

hard for the chosen ones who are treated differently than other and will never be judged like the other sinners to do that though

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Really!? Does God "awaken them" before or after they exercised their "freewill" to repent and believe the gospel?

And Mat 7:7 does not teach anything about man's "ability to seek after God". What it does teach is man's moral/spiritual responsibility or duty t seek after Him. This is a classic case of you reading "ability" into the text. You excel at eisegesis!

““The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

God did this

so that they would seek him and reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

…..In the past God overlooked our ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

For he has set a day when he will judge the world with righteousness by the man he has appointed.

He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24, 26-27, 30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬

it’s spiritually crippling some of you guys to believe the things you do if I believe I have no choice I’ll never choose the offer God has given us all no sinner could ever be saved of sinners can’t hear the gospel it’s exactly who he came to save the lost sinners not the chosen favorites

 

[GWH]

Really!? Does God "awaken them" before or after they exercised their "freewill" to repent and believe the gospel?

And Mat 7:7 does not teach anything about man's "ability to seek after God". What it does teach is man's moral/spiritual responsibility or duty t seek after Him. This is a classic case of you reading "ability" into the text. You excel at eisegesis!

How about reading these texts?

Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation

[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]

From Matthew

1. Repent (4:17, F),
2. Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
3. Be righteous (5:20, W)
4. Love your enemies (5:44, W)
5. Serve God (6:24&33, W)
6. Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
7. Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
8. Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
9. Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
10. Love Jesus (10:37, F)
11. Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
12. Have no doubt (11:6, F)
13. Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
14. Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
15. Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
16. Understand (13:23, F)
17. Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
18. Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
19. Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
20. Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
21. Forgive others (18:35, W)
22. Give to the poor (19:21, W)
23. Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
24. Yield fruit (21:43, W)
25. Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
26. Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
27. Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
28. Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
29. Be ready (24:44, F&W)
30. Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
31. Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
32. Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)

More from Mark

33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke

1. Be hated (6:22-23, W)
2. Lend (6:35, W)
3. Judge not (6:37, W)
4. Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
5. Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
6. Stand firm (21:19, F)

From John

1. Be born again (3:3&6, F)
2. Come to the light (3:21, F)
3. Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
4. Drink living water (4:14, F)
5. Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
6. Do right (5:29, W)
7. Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
8. Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
9. Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
10. Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
11. Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
12. Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
13. Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
14. Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
15. Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
16. Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
17. Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)

From Acts

1. Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
2. Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
3. Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
4. Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
5. Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)

From Romans

1. Have faith (1:17, F)
2. Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
3. Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
4. Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
5. Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
6. Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)

From 1 Corinthians

1. Believe (1:21, F)
2. Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)

From 2 Corinthians

1. Repent (7:10, F)

 

[Magenta]

Really!? Does God "awaken them" before or after they exercised their "freewill" to repent and believe the gospel?

And Mat 7:7 does not teach anything about man's "ability to seek after God". What it does teach is man's moral/spiritual responsibility or duty t seek after Him. This is a classic case of you reading "ability" into the text. You excel at eisegesis!

Probably no agreed upon definition can be widely settled on because it is not something the Bible teaches.

The Bible does however teach much about the natural, unregenerated man, the person who is lost, blind, unable to comprehend. Even though there are those here who would like to pretend it does not. And the Bile also delineates the incurable wickedness of such a heart, though the FW proponent plays this down to the extreme, even claiming he is not a slave to sin, how dare I take that word so seriously??? God rescuing people out of slavery has no place in their theology, I suppose, even though the whole Passover revolves around it.

 

[Rufus]

Firstly, what NIV version are you using? Here's the newer 2011 version:

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome1 it. (Jn. 1:4-5 NIV)

On the other hand, one of your favored translations reads for v.5:

John 1:5
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
NKJV

Are you still trying to figure out what or who the "darkness" is?

 

[Rufus]

How about reading these texts?

Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation

[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]

From Matthew

1. Repent (4:17, F),
2. Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
3. Be righteous (5:20, W)
4. Love your enemies (5:44, W)
5. Serve God (6:24&33, W)
6. Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
7. Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
8. Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
9. Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
10. Love Jesus (10:37, F)
11. Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
12. Have no doubt (11:6, F)
13. Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
14. Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
15. Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
16. Understand (13:23, F)
17. Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
18. Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
19. Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
20. Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
21. Forgive others (18:35, W)
22. Give to the poor (19:21, W)
23. Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
24. Yield fruit (21:43, W)
25. Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
26. Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
27. Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
28. Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
29. Be ready (24:44, F&W)
30. Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
31. Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
32. Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)

More from Mark

33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke

1. Be hated (6:22-23, W)
2. Lend (6:35, W)
3. Judge not (6:37, W)
4. Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
5. Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
6. Stand firm (21:19, F)

From John

1. Be born again (3:3&6, F)
2. Come to the light (3:21, F)
3. Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
4. Drink living water (4:14, F)
5. Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
6. Do right (5:29, W)
7. Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
8. Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
9. Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
10. Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
11. Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
12. Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
13. Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
14. Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
15. Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
16. Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
17. Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)

From Acts

1. Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
2. Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
3. Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
4. Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
5. Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)

From Romans

1. Have faith (1:17, F)
2. Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
3. Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
4. Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
5. Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
6. Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)

From 1 Corinthians

1. Believe (1:21, F)
2. Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)

From 2 Corinthians

1. Repent (7:10, F)

So I see that you do agree with me after all that Mat 7:7 says nothing about man's ability, which is why you were FORCED to bring a slew of other passages to bear upon the passage. But it even gets worse for you because none of the passages you cite teach anything about man's spiritual/moral ability. You're engaging in circular reasoning through your eisegesis. You reason along these lines: Commands in the bible logically infer ability, therefore, Mat 7:7 is teaching that we all have that kind of ability.

 

[cv5]

Nowhere is free will found, so we still come out ahead.

Just because one has zero discernment regarding the natural man man compared to the
spiritual man, does not dismiss the plethora of teachings regarding the unregenerated person.
Like you are blind to everything the Bible says about the state of man and his unregenerated heart?
If that is the case you are worse off than I suspected.

Let's try and keep up shall we?
Your "natural man" theory has been completely and finally debunked.

Any other questions?

 

[Rufus]

This comment will get you the boot with the calvies.

According to the calvies we can know about His creative abilities. God forbids us from knowing about His salvation abilities.

We can know He created the dung beetle, but we have no chance knowing He created a salvation Plan.

Silly stuff.

Not at all. Gazillions of people have knowledge of God's existence while simultaneously perishing because they KNOW NOT God in a personal, intimate, filial, covenant way. Only the living can know God in the manner I just described.

Anymore gems of "wisdom" for us?

 

[GWH]

So I see that you do agree with me after all that Mat 7:7 says nothing about man's ability, which is why you were FORCED to bring a slew of other passages to bear upon the passage. But it even gets worse for you because none of the passages you cite teach anything about man's spiritual/moral ability. You're engaging in circular reasoning through your eisegesis. You reason along these lines: Commands in the bible logically infer ability, therefore, Mat 7:7 is teaching that we all have that kind of ability.

Yes, although discerning implied meaning is neither circular reasoning nor eisegesis,
but if you think it is, then complain to the writers--don't shoot the messenger!

 

[Magenta]

For some reason I am reminded of a person when they asked me if heart circumcision was by magic or obedience.
Of course introducing magic into the equation was a snide move but also made clear they believed obedience
comes before even though the unregenerated heart of the natural man (for you in denial that means a person
who has not yet been made alive in Christ) is said to be incapable of submitting to God's law. So the whole
Spiritual aspect of what God is doing and how He works in our lives is often misunderstood. The unregenerated
natural man is referred to in quite a few ways throughout the Bible, such as those who are called lost, blind,
unsaved, children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of the devil... Paul said they have become filled
with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice.
They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they
disobey their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless. BUT still those in denial claim he is
not a bad guy and he can bring forth good fruit from his incurably wicked heart even though there is no good
dwelling in his flesh. So they contradict what Jesus said about this person but seemingly think nothing of it.