Keep in mind the catholic churches have a different book they read, with different doctrines.
So I am debating a Catholic on salvation and works....
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I know I did, under Law, that happened to me, I hated every second of sin, that I let happen in me and through me. God knows who is this as well, and yet gives up on no one, this I man thankful for.
Trust, God will get you out of it, never by force as people do, or any manipulation to leave it behind you as religion does.
I saw you post this, and I know what I went through and can go through it again. Anytime I, get the thought I got it, I usually find out no I Do not. Yet God has got it, done it once for us all to not be under Law anymore and now uphold Law as good, to see new in the new you, born new by God Father in risen Son, Jesus for you too, thank you Father and Son as Won (One)
otherwise, I have nothing, I only depend on God, and Son as Won (One)
I in first birth was born alive to flesh and blood alone
Now dead to first birth by God's done work of Son for me to be alive as see what John 4:23-24 means God is love that goes on forever 1 Cor 13:13
True enough it should be lead by the spirit and in God's hands but such discussions are also vital to understand especially for new believers so at the same time it is one that is important to discuss.
At the very least we decided best to drop the discussion because it was not going anywhere
Probably wise, since Catholics believe and stubbornly, vociferously defend many things which are not at all Biblical.
In fact it is mandatory for them to believe that which is not Biblically supported.
Yeah I noticed how stubbornly they believe in things that are not biblical and even if you present them with scripture if they do not agree with it they will not accept it then they try to twist it to make it say something that it isn't.
And don't get me started on the whole praying to mary thing that one is even worse
Yes, their Mariology is really quite disturbing, and in fact the only two dogmas which the Catholic is mandated to believe have to do with her, and not Jesus. Many confuse the immaculate conception as having to do with Jesus' birth, but it is in fact their un-Biblical dogma concerning Mary being preserved from sin at her conception and birth, and this is one of the two mandatory dogmas. They believe Mary was thus preserved from sin so that Jesus could be born sinless as if He needed her help in that regard! And then the second ex cathedra dogma mandated for the Catholic to believe is the bodily assumption of Mary, and if you think about it, these two dogmas are inextricably connected, since believing Mary was without sin, there was no need for her to die and off she went to heaven without having to experience the first death with zero verses to support any such thing. They also call her the mother of us all, the second Eve, queen of heaven, and insist you must go through her to get to Jesus as she in their belief system is a co-mediatrix. They do of course also claim Jesus had no siblings which is false, and also that Peter was the first pope, etc. But Peter is NOT the rock the church is built on!
Ok well as long as you feel the discussion is genuine on the bases of that bases, and you feel comfortable, but more often than not when I read discussions about this topic, one to many people get led astray, or the person point blank saying a person can lose there salvation, isn't probably saved in the first place.
It makes no sense to suggest you could lose something that's so important, neither does it make any sense that a saved person would want to, or even put them selves in a situation where that possibly is a reality, it's a debate thats been debated for years and there's way to many biblical texts to suggest you can't lose it, in clear context to , but there is only a few text that seem to only suggest you can. Which is the reason it's been so heavily debated.
Where talking about God who knows your future, I can't possibly think he's going to hand a person over to son just to go and take that precious free gift away. Since he knows your future is he going to hand you over to son just to let you experience salvation knowing your going to fall.
I don't think so personally, because thats only makes God look daft.
Wow that is interesting I had no idea that their theology of Mary went that far this is very disturbing to hear that kind of belief system is dangerous to new believers
I am currently doing a study on this very thing and from what I gather if one could lose their salvation it would only be the case that they were not really saved to begin with it is the only reason I can see of one losing what is supposed to be eternal
I have seen believers go astray and some even give up on Christianity all together but the scriptures seem to imply that is not something one can lose unless they wwillingly forfeit it. after all if one has tasted and seen the goodness of God why would they just lose it? it doesn't make sense unless one has tasted and seen yet willingly hands over their salvation to chase the things of the world. I don't get it because God is so amazing and if one has tasted and felt his presence that alone to me at least would make one never want to lose it
I believe people imagine all sorts of ideas to prove themselves right, and solely just to disprove other people wrong.
There is one sentence in the whole Bible that seems to suggest you can forfeit your salvation, but it doesn't line up with the whole Bible.
The thing is if you could just willfully give up your inheritance, that means that your happy to go to hell, was you ever saved in the first place if you think that, not you personally but the person making the suggestion ?
But also let's say the passage you mention is completely right is God going give you this gift on the bases you can just abandon it if you want ?
Again I would say no because that would also be making God look daft as he knows your future.
It's pretty sad really that people make this argument.
It's based on free will as well blain there ideas. Free will really is man's own self determinism.
Before the fall of man, mankind was Gods Children completely owned by the father forever more and heading back to father.
The flesh returns to the earth and the spirit return back to the spirit.
God breathed life into Adam.
.and became a living soul.
It's his life blain we where not naturally born of the earth are body is just an earthly vessel for the soul, he has created in all of us, and at one time before the fall mankind was owned by him and returning back to him.
So these free willers just don't know what there talking about when they think the things they do, and what they think is it's all about them, there freedom there life there inheritance.
Well it's not blain it's All about him as it's his life his inheritance his freedom.
As you already know, thank youI'm not convinced of any of this. Why would you put the faithful and obedient older son in such a bad light. God actually commends people like him. He's like the faithful servant who made 10 more talents for his master.
It doesn't say that he's been given the checkbook again anywhere. All that wealth is actually the older son's inheritance. Since that is the older son's checkbook, the prodigal son would have to ask him for money to buy specific things every time. Or stop being a leech and get a decent job.
It's like you want to reward the prodigal son for his sin and bad decisions. And punish the faithful and obedient son for being angry as if his sin was unforgivable but prodigal son's were.
God is merciful to those who stray and come back, yes. But He rewards His faithful and obedient children even more.
Jesus went to the cross for us all y'all. Risen now as proof as the way, truth and life unto Father for us to be new in the risen Life of Jesus in love and mercy to all, the same as he did go there willingly, no flesh fight back!
Died for the entire sin(s) of the entire world of people, Reconciled everyone 2Cor 5:17-20, Col 1:21-23. Eph 1:6,7,13 Amazing done work under Law. To bring on new life, in and through us in the risen Son Jesus living in us performing God's love 1 Cor 13:4-7 through us, at least me
That is done John 19:30, fulfilled Law, Matthew 5:17, did not take away Law, did not destroy Law, fulfilled it for us to be new in his risen Life. The gift given, to be given as Father sees fit not me or anyone else thank you
Thank you for the reminder
This in my walk, I am in process of learning from everything good or bad happening to me, standing in trust, Even whenever get messed up along the way, I see to not sway, (Deny) God ever as am a Job in the book of Job
Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if (since) that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
I believe God in risen Son for me, I do not deserve anything, not even the gift. I accept this gift amazingly given from God to us all, proof, risen Son.
Therefore I have no righteousness of my own ever. I do have righteousness though, it is not mine, it does not belong to me, this is God's share, not only to me, but for all to all to choose to either believe God in risen Son for them or not. thanks
That is all that is left is: to Choose, to believe Son is risen for us to be new in love and mercy too. Thank you
The ring on his finger is the family checkbook. The shoes mean he belongs in the house as a served person and not a servant.I'm not convinced of any of this. Why would you put the faithful and obedient older son in such a bad light. God actually commends people like him. He's like the faithful servant who made 10 more talents for his master.
It doesn't say that he's been given the checkbook again anywhere. All that wealth is actually the older son's inheritance. Since that is the older son's checkbook, the prodigal son would have to ask him for money to buy specific things every time. Or stop being a leech and get a decent job.
It's like you want to reward the prodigal son for his sin and bad decisions. And punish the faithful and obedient son for being angry as if his sin was unforgivable but prodigal son's were.
God is merciful to those who stray and come back, yes. But He rewards His faithful and obedient children even more.
This is where knowledge of anthropology is necessary for the full understanding of the parable.
Hmmm. Seems like your conclusion that OSAS is wrong based on your observation that people fall away forces you into agreement with the Catholic doctrine that you are adamately opposing. What distinction are you making?
Father told Older Son, all he has was still his as well, think on that one, take a bite God loves us all y'all
That is a truth from day one in the fall of Adam and Eve. We the people do the bad all by ourselves, not by God ever, thank you
Correct....but the older son refused to enjoy it or have anything to do with the wealth because of his unforgiving heart.
That's the focus....that's the meaning.
But even without knowing anthropology, the parable still conveyed the restored status of the prodigal son and I'm fine with that since I've had the same experience with God.
What I objected to is that the older son was made out to have done something worse than the prodigal son which just isn't true.
Notice that the father didn't get angry at the older son for his resentment and complaint? Notice the father didn't take the older son's inheritance away from him or kick him out? All the father had STILL belongs to the older son. Their relationship and the older son's family status remained intact!
What wasn't emphasized - what was downplayed and should also be pointed out - is that restoring a backslidden child that had come back to God doesn't diminish the greater rewards for the rest of the children that remain faithful and obedient.
Brother do you k pe how I’m always saying we need to really listen to Jesus teachings concerning his kingdom ?
“However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power ( dominion ) over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.”
Consider this parable taught by our lord who shed his blood to atone for our sins concerning forgivness in his kingdom.
“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven times.
“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. ( we all have to be judged by our works and all will fall short not able to pay)
. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ ( he’s repenting realizing he can’t pay his own debt )
The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. ( the king forgives all his unpaid debt because he has mercy on him )
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.
When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.””
Matthew 18:21-
what was it that doomed the man brother ? He was initially forgiven completely but was it his own little mistakes he made that doomed him ? His own debt ? Or was it something else that he did or failed to do that brought the wrath of the king upon his head ?
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
you are a wonderful brother in the lord blainer , this is just for your consideration
Jesus taught these things to those who did believe in him and came to hear him
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
our works will definately fall short on thoer own but “mercy will triumph over judgement “ is something Jesus and his apostles taught can save us not only his mercy tonus individually but extended also from us or “ through” us …. to other folks who need it when they sin against us
But even without knowing anthropology, the parable still conveyed the restored status of the prodigal son and I'm fine with that since I've had the same experience with God.
What I objected to is that the older son was made out to have done something worse than the prodigal son which just isn't true.
Notice that the father didn't get angry at the older son for his resentment and complaint? Notice the father didn't take the older son's inheritance away from him or kick him out? All the father had STILL belongs to the older son. Their relationship and the older son's family status remained intact!
What wasn't emphasized - what was downplayed and should also be pointed out - is that restoring a backslidden child that had come back to God doesn't diminish the greater rewards for the rest of the children that remain faithful and obedient.
The unforgiving son though is out due to his unforgiving nature.
The forgiven son is in.
But while he was outside the family he was always at risk....
It's an allusion....symbolic. the unforgiving is the worst sin. Over and above the ignorance, negligence and planned sins.
But forgiving the most of what you are capable of is required. It may not be the same capacity as God is able to forgive sins....but it is sufficient to allow you to gain access into heaven.