Christ’s death and resurrection

[Ceph]

When a person believes in Jesus for salvation, they will be provided all they need to be saved.
Why do you guys waste your time? Did you make your life yourself, or was it given to you?
Everyone else is living their own lives without reading all this nonsense. Let every believer be led by the Shepherd.

 

[LightBearer316]

When a person believes in Jesus for salvation, they will be provided all they need to be saved.
Why do you guys waste your time? Did you make your life yourself, or was it given to you?
Everyone else is living their own lives without reading all this nonsense. Let every believer be led by the Shepherd.

True — every believer should be led by the Shepherd.
But the Shepherd leads us through His Word, and that’s why doctrine matters.
We’re also commanded to contend for the faith (Jude 1:3 KJV), because truth must be guarded from error.

Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.” — John 8:31 KJV

Sound teaching isn’t a waste of time — it’s obedience to the One who saved us, & it’s how we keep from being led astray.

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

 

[Ceph]

True — every believer should be led by the Shepherd.
But the Shepherd leads us through His Word, and that’s why doctrine matters.
We’re also commanded to contend for the faith (Jude 1:3 KJV), because truth must be guarded from error.

Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.” — John 8:31 KJV

Sound teaching isn’t a waste of time — it’s obedience to the One who saved us, & it’s how we keep from being led astray.

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

To me it seems like this thread is just a ping pong game.
The doctrines amount to: do righteousness and love God, seeking first the kingdom and having faith that all things necessary will be added to you.
Know no one else comes to the Father but through the son, and that the gift of salvation is even for the uttermost who believe on Christs name.
Each person is given from the Lords wisdom according to their ability, and not a single crop of wheat from God to fail to obtain his mercy.
However we judge, we will be judged, and for what we condemn, by that we will be condemned by.
But if we set free, trusting our faith, persevering in good fruits toward eternal life, we will be free.

So, why do we still stumble over the letter, instead of embracing the spring that gives life?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

To me it seems like this thread is just a ping pong game.

So, why do we still stumble over the letter, instead of embracing the spring that gives life?

It is, but for me personally it's a great learning opportunity. I learn so much from other peoples' mistakes.

 

[Ceph]

To me it seems like this thread is just a ping pong game.
The doctrines amount to: do righteousness and love God, seeking first the kingdom and having faith that all things necessary will be added to you.
Know no one else comes to the Father but through the son, and that the gift of salvation is even for the uttermost who believe on Christs name.
Each person is given from the Lords wisdom according to their ability, and not a single crop of wheat from God to fail to obtain his mercy.
However we judge, we will be judged, and for what we condemn, by that we will be condemned by.
But if we set free, trusting our faith, persevering in good fruits toward eternal life, we will be free.

So, why do we still stumble over the letter, instead of embracing the spring that gives life?

*no one comes to the Father but through the Son, my bad.

It is, but for me personally it's a great learning opportunity. I learn so much from other peoples' mistakes.

Strife does not belong to God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

*no one comes to the Father but through the Son, my bad.

Strife does not belong to God.

We can learn from all things. I take the strife in stride and do my best not to feed it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Baptism is a symbol of what Christ has already accomplished — not the means by which sin’s power is broken.
Scripture never says the water itself removes sin or its power, but that union with Christ through faith does:

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him… that we should not serve sin.” — Romans 6:6 KJV​

Notice Paul says “reckon yourselves dead indeed unto sin” (Romans 6:11). That’s a faith response — not a ritual effect.
Water baptism testifies to that reality; it doesn’t produce it.

Forgiveness and freedom from sin’s power both flow from Christ’s finished work, not the ceremony that represents it:

“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” — John 8:36 KJV​

Acts 2:38 was Peter’s call for repentant faith expressed publicly through baptism — never a formula for earning salvation.
Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6).

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

…. Alrighty

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Peter already clarifies what he means:

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV

The verse itself denies that the water saves — it’s the resurrection of Christ that does.
Baptism is the figure (the outward symbol), not the cause of salvation.


Grace and peace — always in His Word.

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV

It’s strange that you Ignored the verse because it states baptism saves …and just quoted the parenthesis note that’s added . What peters sayong needs more than removing the verse and looking at a note .

“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (Noah being saved by water was a figure of baptism ) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Looks different if you read the scripture instead of the note added in parenthesis

the note
“(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s just saying baptism isn’t about washing the dirt from your body like a bath , but getting baptized for remission of sins leaves your conscience clear because your sins are remitted and you have Gods word on it. You’ve done the thing he said to do for remission of sins you can now let go of all those sins we carry around .


Getting baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins , should leave a believers conscience clear . it’s not about washing your body like a bath is all the notes getting at it’s a spiritual act of faith because you believe Jesus died for your sins and rose for your justification

 

[Inquisitor]

Where is it written that water baptism is called a symbol? Peter called it an antitype, which is the opposite of a symbolic thing that points to it.

I asked AI to clear up this this physical, one-off, water baptismand physical circumcision, versus spiritual fulfillment.

Excellent and deep set of questions — and yes, Scripture itself traces a powerful link between circumcision, baptism, and the new covenant — each pointing progressively toward the inner work of the Spirit rather than external ritual. Let’s unpack each part using Scripture only, step by step.

1. Is water baptism a one-off, external symbol, of the inner baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Yes — Scripture reveals that water baptism is an outward confession of an inner reality that only the Spirit of God accomplishes.

• John the Baptist distinguished them clearly:
  
  “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who comes after me… will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
  — Matthew 3:11​

John’s baptism was external — repentance and preparation. Christ’s baptism is internal — transformation and new birth.

• Paul makes the distinction:
  
  “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks... and were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
  — 1 Corinthians 12:13​

That’s Spirit baptism, not water.

• Peter too draws the parallel:
  
  “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
  — 1 Peter 3:21​

Peter explicitly says it’s not physical cleansing, but a spiritual appeal of faith to God.

So yes — the water act is symbolic and one-time; the Spirit’s work is inward and lifelong.

2. Was the new covenant an introduction into the ultimate fulfillment of circumcision and water baptism?

Yes — the new covenant brings to fulfillment the spiritual reality that the old signs (circumcision, and later baptism) only pointed toward.

• Circumcision was the old covenant’s external sign (Genesis 17:10–11).
  But Paul explains that true circumcision is of the heart:
  
  “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.”
  — Romans 2:28–29​
• Christ fulfills it perfectly:
  
  “In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism...”
  — Colossians 2:11–12​

Paul directly ties spiritual circumcision to baptism, both being fulfilled inwardly in Christ. The old covenant’s external symbols are replaced by the Spirit’s internal work of regeneration and union with Christ.

So yes — the new covenant is the ultimate fulfillment of what both circumcision and baptism represented:
→ a cutting away of the old nature and entry into new life in the Spirit.

3. Was the early church unclear on the depth of Christ’s new covenant?

Yes — initially. The book of Acts reveals a gradual unfolding of understanding.

• Early believers often held onto old covenant shadows:
  • Jewish believers still practiced temple worship (Acts 2:46; 3:1).
  • Peter initially hesitated to eat with Gentiles (Acts 10).
  • Some insisted Gentiles must be circumcised (Acts 15:1–5).
• The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) marked the Spirit’s clarification that Gentiles were not under the law, nor required circumcision — showing how the church was being taught progressively by the Spirit into the fullness of grace.

Even Paul’s letters correct misunderstandings:

“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
— Galatians 3:3​

This shows how the early believers were growing in understanding that Christ’s covenant is entirely spiritual — internal, not external.

 

[LightBearer316]

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV

It’s strange that you Ignored the verse because it states baptism saves …and just quoted the parenthesis note that’s added . What peters sayong needs more than removing the verse and looking at a note .

“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (Noah being saved by water was a figure of baptism ) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Looks different if you read the scripture instead of the note added in parenthesis

the note
“(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s just saying baptism isn’t about washing the dirt from your body like a bath , but getting baptized for remission of sins leaves your conscience clear because your sins are remitted and you have Gods word on it. You’ve done the thing he said to do for remission of sins you can now let go of all those sins we carry around .


Getting baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins , should leave a believers conscience clear . it’s not about washing your body like a bath is all the notes getting at it’s a spiritual act of faith because you believe Jesus died for your sins and rose for your justification

You are quoting the right verses but inverting the argument Peter makes.

Peter is comparing Noah’s deliverance to the believer’s salvation, but he explicitly calls baptism a “figure” (Greek antitupos — “antitype,” a symbol or picture).

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

Then Peter immediately qualifies what he means so no one mistakes it for a literal washing:

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.”​

He’s clarifying that it’s not the water that saves but what baptism represents — faith in Christ’s death and resurrection.

What the “water” saved in Noah’s day
The water in Noah’s story didn’t save anyone — it judged the world.
The ark saved Noah’s family through the water (they were preserved from judgment, not purified by it).
Likewise, we are saved from judgment through Christ, not through physical baptism.

The True Saving Element
Peter states the real cause of salvation:

“By the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

That’s the entire basis.
Baptism is the believer’s outward testimony of what Christ’s resurrection has already accomplished inwardly.

Forum-Ready Reply
Here’s how you can summarize it briefly when replying:

The passage doesn’t teach that the water saves — Peter calls baptism a figure and immediately says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.”​

Noah wasn’t cleansed by the water; he was saved through it because he was in the ark.​

The saving power is Christ’s resurrection, not the ritual.​

Baptism testifies to salvation — it doesn’t produce it.​

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I asked AI to clear up this this physical, one-off, water baptismand physical circumcision, versus spiritual fulfillment.

Excellent and deep set of questions — and yes, Scripture itself traces a powerful link between circumcision, baptism, and the new covenant — each pointing progressively toward the inner work of the Spirit rather than external ritual. Let’s unpack each part using Scripture only, step by step.

1. Is water baptism a one-off, external symbol, of the inner baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Yes — Scripture reveals that water baptism is an outward confession of an inner reality that only the Spirit of God accomplishes.

• John the Baptist distinguished them clearly:
  
  “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who comes after me… will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
  — Matthew 3:11​

John’s baptism was external — repentance and preparation. Christ’s baptism is internal — transformation and new birth.

• Paul makes the distinction:
  
  “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks... and were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
  — 1 Corinthians 12:13​

That’s Spirit baptism, not water.

• Peter too draws the parallel:
  
  “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
  — 1 Peter 3:21​

Peter explicitly says it’s not physical cleansing, but a spiritual appeal of faith to God.

So yes — the water act is symbolic and one-time; the Spirit’s work is inward and lifelong.

2. Was the new covenant an introduction into the ultimate fulfillment of circumcision and water baptism?

Yes — the new covenant brings to fulfillment the spiritual reality that the old signs (circumcision, and later baptism) only pointed toward.

• Circumcision was the old covenant’s external sign (Genesis 17:10–11).
  But Paul explains that true circumcision is of the heart:
  
  “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.”
  — Romans 2:28–29​
• Christ fulfills it perfectly:
  
  “In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism...”
  — Colossians 2:11–12​

Paul directly ties spiritual circumcision to baptism, both being fulfilled inwardly in Christ. The old covenant’s external symbols are replaced by the Spirit’s internal work of regeneration and union with Christ.

So yes — the new covenant is the ultimate fulfillment of what both circumcision and baptism represented:
→ a cutting away of the old nature and entry into new life in the Spirit.

3. Was the early church unclear on the depth of Christ’s new covenant?

Yes — initially. The book of Acts reveals a gradual unfolding of understanding.

• Early believers often held onto old covenant shadows:
  • Jewish believers still practiced temple worship (Acts 2:46; 3:1).
  • Peter initially hesitated to eat with Gentiles (Acts 10).
  • Some insisted Gentiles must be circumcised (Acts 15:1–5).
• The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) marked the Spirit’s clarification that Gentiles were not under the law, nor required circumcision — showing how the church was being taught progressively by the Spirit into the fullness of grace.

Even Paul’s letters correct misunderstandings:

“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”​

— Galatians 3:3​

This shows how the early believers were growing in understanding that Christ’s covenant is entirely spiritual — internal, not external.

Brings out some really good points

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Peter is comparing Noah’s deliverance to the believer’s salvation, but he explicitly calls baptism a “figure” (Greek antitupos — “antitype,” a symbol or picture).

As explained to you previously, antitype is the opposite of a figure. Antitype is the reality a figure points to. Peter literally used the Greek word ἀντίτυπον (antitupon) from which the English antitype comes from.

 

[GWH]

What are your thoughts?

My first thought is: why/how you connect Christ's death and resurrection to 2Cor. 10:5?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are quoting the right verses but inverting the argument Peter makes.

Peter is comparing Noah’s deliverance to the believer’s salvation, but he explicitly calls baptism a “figure” (Greek antitupos — “antitype,” a symbol or picture).

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

Then Peter immediately qualifies what he means so no one mistakes it for a literal washing:

“Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.”​

He’s clarifying that it’s not the water that saves but what baptism represents — faith in Christ’s death and resurrection.

What the “water” saved in Noah’s day
The water in Noah’s story didn’t save anyone — it judged the world.
The ark saved Noah’s family through the water (they were preserved from judgment, not purified by it).
Likewise, we are saved from judgment through Christ, not through physical baptism.

The True Saving Element
Peter states the real cause of salvation:

“By the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” — 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

That’s the entire basis.
Baptism is the believer’s outward testimony of what Christ’s resurrection has already accomplished inwardly.

Forum-Ready Reply
Here’s how you can summarize it briefly when replying:

The passage doesn’t teach that the water saves — Peter calls baptism a figure and immediately says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.”​

Noah wasn’t cleansed by the water; he was saved through it because he was in the ark.​

The saving power is Christ’s resurrection, not the ritual.​

Baptism testifies to salvation — it doesn’t produce it.​

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

a yeah you have to get off the “ water doesn’t save “ thing no one’s saying water saves peters reference to water there is baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins it just happens in water faith in Jesus Christ saves. Baptism is an act of faith.


“Peter is comparing Noah’s deliverance to the believer’s salvation, but he explicitly calls baptism a “figure” (Greek antitupos — “antitype,” a symbol or picture).”

not at all Peter says this

“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-22‬ ‭

the firgure is they in Noah’s day were saved by water because of the ark ….. the reality is baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reality is Christ and the gospel the pattern and figures are in the ot .

“ Eight souls were saved by water .The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It’s strange how circular your argument has been

You’re able to acknowledge this , and amen it’s the truth !

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We agree here amen ! Everyone here knows n the bf run agrees with that. But then when scripture shows us clearly how it is applied to the believer for remission of those sins he died for like these couple clear examples.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your argument seems to start turning in circles at this point .

But what if Paul is explaining it correctly and baptism means what he’s saying it means to the believer ?

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh ( remission of sins ) by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,

wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”( remission of sins )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What if baptism means what scripture says it means ? What if we chose to learn what the Bible actually teaches about baptism and believed that stuff ?

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What if instead of re explaining what they have explained we simply learned and believed what they explained ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if that’s true ? And we’re supposed to hear about it and believe so that we will act upon it ?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if peters correct ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-19‬ ‭

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:31-33‬ ‭


Jesus didint mind getting baptized

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭

There’s no reason for us to try to remove the doctrine Jesus sent forth for salvation from salvation. if we shared it instead what they exolain about it people who listened would want to get baptized and see it as it is a gift and blessing in Jesus name

 

[Aaron56]

Baptism is about forgiveness of sins. Having the conscience cleansed so that we can stand in the presence of the lord and not be shamed from him for our nakedness. That is eternal life.

#shrug
So, I guess continue arguing the issue that has divided the Body of Christ for hundreds of years.

I provided the key to the lock of the trap, if you can receive it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

#shrug
So, I guess continue arguing the issue that has divided the Body of Christ for hundreds of years.

I provided the key to the lock of the trap, if you can receive it.

It's really not that complicated, and frankly I didn't find anything of practical use in your explanation. It's really about imitating what Jesus and the apostles did. Any kickback against that or trying to rationalize it away as unnecessary as some of the reformers did is a spirit of rebellion. There's just no godly reason for it.

 

[LightBearer316]

a yeah you have to get off the “ water doesn’t save “ thing no one’s saying water saves peters reference to water there is baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins it just happens in water faith in Jesus Christ saves. Baptism is an act of faith.


“Peter is comparing Noah’s deliverance to the believer’s salvation, but he explicitly calls baptism a “figure” (Greek antitupos — “antitype,” a symbol or picture).”

not at all Peter says this

“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-22‬ ‭

the firgure is they in Noah’s day were saved by water because of the ark ….. the reality is baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reality is Christ and the gospel the pattern and figures are in the ot .

“ Eight souls were saved by water .The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It’s strange how circular your argument has been

You’re able to acknowledge this , and amen it’s the truth !

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We agree here amen ! Everyone here knows n the bf run agrees with that. But then when scripture shows us clearly how it is applied to the believer for remission of those sins he died for like these couple clear examples.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your argument seems to start turning in circles at this point .

But what if Paul is explaining it correctly and baptism means what he’s saying it means to the believer ?

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh ( remission of sins ) by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,

wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”( remission of sins )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What if baptism means what scripture says it means ? What if we chose to learn what the Bible actually teaches about baptism and believed that stuff ?

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What if instead of re explaining what they have explained we simply learned and believed what they explained ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if that’s true ? And we’re supposed to hear about it and believe so that we will act upon it ?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if peters correct ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-19‬ ‭

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:31-33‬ ‭


Jesus didint mind getting baptized

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭

There’s no reason for us to try to remove the doctrine Jesus sent forth for salvation from salvation. if we shared it instead what they exolain about it people who listened would want to get baptized and see it as it is a gift and blessing in Jesus name

You’ve quoted a lot of Scripture, but the question isn’t whether baptism is commanded—it is.
The question is what it accomplishes. Peter calls it a figure—an outward testimony of an inward reality—“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God… by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet 3:21 KJV).

Romans 6 KJV, Colossians 2 KJV, and Galatians 3 KJV all describe what baptism pictures—union with Christ’s death and resurrection—something faith has already secured (Eph 2:8-9 KJV; Acts 10:43-47 KJV).
Noah wasn’t saved by the water that judged the world, but through it because he was in the ark—and Christ is that Ark for every believer.

Obedience follows grace; it never earns it.
Baptism proclaims salvation—it doesn’t produce it.

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

 

[HaveEL]

No of course the early church didn’t invent baptism’s meaning; God did. You're casting doubt on what Peter explicitly stated, that baptism now saves us, and using other verses pertaining to salvation that don't mention baptism to undermine and invalidate what he said in order to establish an opposing idea as the truth. The ritual act of baptism is done in faith and is therefore not opposed to salvation by faith. Acts 2:38 contradicts your claim that "Baptism follows that faith as the outward confession of an inward reality". That's just something you've made up, or heard from others and are just repeating.

Clear Scripture states:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38​

​

and

The antitype, baptism, also now saves us. Not the laying aside of filth of flesh, but the petition of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21​

​

These should be the final word because they are so explicit. leaving no room for doubt.

Water baptism was a rite that God established and Jesus obeyed, so it is more than a tradition. In fact he said unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

What truly saves is obeying God, and all indications are that water baptism is commanded by God.

[/QUOTE]

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
If we have to baptize in order to be obedient to God then, I guess, Jesus wasn't so obedient since it says here, He never baptized anybody, His disciples did, but He Himself didn't.
And here's what Paul said:

were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
So since you say that by baptizing people we're being obedient to God then, I guess, Paul wasn't very obedient cause he only baptized a few people. One would think that if baptizing were a requirement for Salvation he would have baptized every single convert and person who he preached to. The point being, water baptism is not wrong or bad, but it's not necessary for Salvation. It's a case of, "According to your Faith be it done unto you."

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
This verse has been misinterpreted so many times. It's not talking about water baptism here. It's talking about being born of the flesh as when a pregnant woman's water bag breaks right before she gives birth, as Jesus Himself clarifies in the next verse:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So since you say that by baptizing people we're being obedient to God then, I guess, Paul wasn't very obedient cause he only baptized a few people.

Both Jesus and Paul delegated that task to others, just as Peter had others baptize Cornelius in Acts 10. So you're logic doesn't hold up. It was getting done in every case

I reject your idea that being born of water has to do with physical birth

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You’ve quoted a lot of Scripture, but the question isn’t whether baptism is commanded—it is.
The question is what it accomplishes. Peter calls it a figure—an outward testimony of an inward reality—“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God… by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet 3:21 KJV).

Romans 6 KJV, Colossians 2 KJV, and Galatians 3 KJV all describe what baptism pictures—union with Christ’s death and resurrection—something faith has already secured (Eph 2:8-9 KJV; Acts 10:43-47 KJV).
Noah wasn’t saved by the water that judged the world, but through it because he was in the ark—and Christ is that Ark for every believer.

Obedience follows grace; it never earns it.
Baptism proclaims salvation—it doesn’t produce it.

Grace and peace — always in His Word.

Are you reading those scriptures ?

“The question is what baptism accomplishes. “

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-

“You’ve quoted a lot of Scripture, “

yes I’ve quoted many scriptures explaining what baptism means and accomplishes for the believer . You should take time to read them.

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27‬

because you don’t have any kind grasp of it. Your too occupied with explaining it’s a meaningless ritual that’s “ commanded “ but doesn’t actually accomplish what it says in scriptire