Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Argue with the scripture; not me. Your conclusion was only logical if you ignore scripture.

I don't argue with nor ignore Scripture.

I discuss and debate Scripture with people and at some point may ignore people.

 

[Toknow]

Not by me, I hope you'll acknowledge.

And such allegations may not be personal but just saying it's the logical outworking of some faith-alone ideology even if you don't share it.

I have to say that, yes, OSAS does tend to comfort some that sin.
They'll feel that they're going to be forgiven anyway.
Catholicism has this problem with confession.
Sin is not given a high amount of importance because it could be forgiven at confession.
There's no priority in obeying God as much as possible....
I believe OSAS is a dangerous teaching and will hold back a new believer,
or even cause his spiritual death.


Galatians 5:16
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

We are told to walk in the spirit....
this is an action.

It means we are to live our life as God woud want us to....
this includes obeying God and allowing the Holy Spirit to help us.
To help us do what?
What pleases God.

 

[Toknow]

Nor does man fully understand God's law.

Must be a connection...

Probably that man does not understand God.

Absolutely man does not understand God.
I've said this many times....
we only understand what small part of God He has revealed to us.

Does an ant undersand man?

 

[Genez]

I have to say that, yes, OSAS does tend to comfort some that sin.

When you sin?
What gives you comfort?

 

[studier]

I have to say that, yes, OSAS does tend to comfort some that sin.
They'll feel that they're going to be forgiven anyway.
Catholicism has this problem with confession.
Sin is not given a high amount of importance because it could be forgiven at confession.
There's no priority in obeying God as much as possible....
I believe OSAS is a dangerous teaching and will hold back a new believer,
or even cause his spiritual death.

This is basically the logical outworking I spoke of.
The logical potential outcome of a young, fleshly believer who is taught OSAS and that obedience is the dreaded works?

Galatians 5:16
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

We are told to walk in the spirit....
this is an action.

It means we are to live our life as God woud want us to....
this includes obeying God and allowing the Holy Spirit to help us.
To help us do what?
What pleases God.

Only thing I'd modify to be very clear; "walk" is a command that requires obedience

 

[studier]

Absolutely man does not understand God.
I've said this many times....
we only understand what small part of God He has revealed to us.

Does an ant undersand man?

Maybe better than a man understands God.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't argue with nor ignore Scripture.

I discuss and debate Scripture with people and at some point may ignore people.

Pretty good deflection. You make a statement. It is shown to be false by scripture. You talk about everything but your mistake.

 

[studier]

Pretty good deflection. You make a statement. It is shown to be false by scripture. You talk about everything but your mistake.

You and I know I disagree with your theology. I saw your determinism in your post. With a deterministic lens all non-determinism looks wrong and mistaken.

 

[Kroogz]

Bought so volitionally obey, correct?

I likely was taught the Angelic Conflict by its author long before you. And from what I've seen, I likely followed and reviewed the Scriptures more closely than you.

Doesn't responsively, continually and volitionally doing what He commands under His grace by His faith walking in His Spirit honor Him as a witness to His creation? Isn't the Christ/King to be obeyed - all knees shall bow?

You are only fooling yourself.

We will never perish. There is no condemnation. We are born of imperishable seed.

2+2= 4. You can't do trigonometry if you THROW THE BASICS OUT.

You are stuck in sour milk. Sorry.

 

[Gideon300]

Thanks Gideon.
That's very nice of you.
Having known me PERSONALLY for many years,,,
I suppose you have the right to believe what you will.

However,
I don't see a reply to Colossians 1.

Why not?

And, instead of trying to make you THINK...

I could have replied to your post to me like this:

You mentioned Ephesians and specifically 4:3 and even posted it.

So why would Paul tell us to behave in a certain manner IF we cannot ever lose our salvation?

Maybe it DEPENDS on our BEHAVIOR?


OR

I could have answered it like this:


There are 3 categories of persons.
SAVED
UNSAVED
THOSE THAT RETURNED TO BEING UNSAVED


Here are some expamples:



JUST FROM JESUS:

Luke 8:13
. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

They BELIEVE FOR A WHILE.

I do believe BELIEVERS are saved...

And then they FALL AWAY due to temptation.




Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

The Prodigal son came to life AGAIN.

AGAIN means that:
he had life
he lost it
he got it back again




Matthew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.



We are the salt of the earth.
IF we become tasteless....
it is good for nothing but to be trampled underfoot.

The salt BECAME tasteless.
It LOST its saltiness.


I'd stop to HEAR what Jesus teaches.

I'm nearly 75. I've spent more than enough of my limited time left discussing salvation with you. You ignore the clear word of God and cherry pick what suits you. If what I've said to date is not enough, then you are unteachable.

 

[Toknow]

If I were to maintain the analogy a bit longer, our box of puzzle pieces contains half a dozen different pictures of Jesus. To discover the real Jesus takes effort and the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Right. I think we can get to know Jesus more and more.
Not sure it takes so much effort...it wasn't like that for me..it seemed effortless.
As to the power of the Holy Spirit....
Pelagius lost the debate.
Of course we need the Holy Spirit.

According to Paul in Romans 2, we all have an inherent understanding of right and wrong to some extent. However, he also argues that our worthiness of punishment stems not only from our actions but from our very nature. In Romans 7, he explains that he did not realize he was on the path to condemnation until he recognized that he had violated the commandment against coveting. He expresses gratitude to God, stating that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I'd go so far as to say that our punishment stems only from our nature.
We are born with a sin nature and, if we do not repent, we will become lost at the age of accountability.

Our ACTION only become important after we're saved.
Unsaved persons are not required to obey God or behave as He would want....
their actions (your term) are meaningless. (except to other persons).

We see that the salvation of God is not transactional; it is relational. The question is not, "Are all my sins forgiven?" but rather, "Am I in Christ Jesus?"

God created a family....
starting with Adam and Eve as husband and wife.
Through faith we can be part of that family.

And, yes, you've asked the right question:
"AM I IN JESUS".

indeed.
Jesus said we are to abide in Him...Live in Him.

He said that if we do not abide in Him...we will be thrown out:


John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
It is through being IN Jesus that we are part of God's family...the Body of Christ.

Is this true if we remove ourselves from the family/Body?

Also, only by changing our nature....can we change our actions.
This happens only through the Holy Spirit.

I know what you mean, but I am reminded that Jesus ate with sinners and those whom the religious people rejected. I am willing to wait until the final judgement to see who makes it.

There certainly isn't a way to know now who is saved and who is not.
Some on this very thead are condemning some to hell...
I think that's beyond our pay grade.

As to Jesus dining with sinners....
Jesus ate with sinners to teach them...to convert them.
This is different than partying with unbelievers on Saturday night because we're walking in the flesh.
(not all parties are bad!!).


2 Corinthians 6:14
14Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

I agree with you; it makes me sad too. The prophets of old also experienced the isolation of living among a disobedient people. I have learned to place my trust in the Holy Spirit to save others. Although we feel sadness when many treat God's salvation as worthless, we endure because we trust that God will eventually set things right. Wouldn't you agree?

EVENTUALLY things will be set right.
Not in my lifetime.

Yes, it's what the Bible teaches.

Okay, but wouldn't you agree that not all conditions necessarily imply or necessitate contingency? I fear that sometimes we hear contingency when none was intended. What we hear him say is "if you love me you will keep my commandments, some of you will keep them and some of you won't. We added that last part.

I don't think we added that last part.
Jesus didn't say this:
IF YOU LOVE ME IT WOULD BE NICE IF YOU KEPT MY COMMANDMENTS.
Jesus said:
IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

Did Jesus intend to offer us a loyalty test, suggesting that falling away remains a possibility? Or perhaps He aimed to establish a strong connection between love for Him and obedience, to the point that we cannot find anyone who obeys Jesus without having first loved Him. I am reminded of the woman who washed Jesus' feet. He asked Simon, “Who loved me more: the one who is forgiven little or the one who is forgiven much?”

When persons debate with me about being obedient to God because we WANT to obey Him
and not because we MUST obey Him...it demonstrates to me that they don't understand the holiness of God...His extreme blinding light...as in the OT.

Your statement is exactly the point:
If we do not obey God....
we do not love Him.

Of course love and obedience go hand in hand.
Why be afraid to say it?

As to the loyalty test....
Jesus DID say we could fall away.

You can't think of any scriputre that teaches this??

Why would anyone think it if it were not biblical?

Do you realize that the majority of Christians believe salvation can be lost?
I'm not depending on numbers,,,,but on mainline Christian beliefs.

Sure, but don't we add the part about falling away? I agree with what you just said, but I would hold short of concluding that Jesus was talking about the continuity of falling away.

Jesus said we could fall away.

Luke 8:13
Luk3 15:24
Matthew 5:13

and more.

I'm sorry about the pushback you are receiving. Of course, we must obey everything Jesus taught. But I would include his teaching on grace and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we all agree on that.
No debate about that.
Strange.
It's just the obedience part that seems to cause division.

Not at all. I agree with you here.

Other systems are the sources of Puzzle pieces from another box that don't belong in our box. The way forward is to maintain the distinction between a transactional scheme and a relational scheme. Jesus taught us that we are saved by grace, which means that I have nothing to offer him. Salvation isn't meritorious; it is granted freely as a gift.

What are you speaking of? ( You say you have nothing to offer.)
Justificaiton
or
Sanctification?
See, this obedience/works debate also confuses language as to soteriology.

Salvation is relational. This is seen most clearly when Jesus talks about those who cast out demons in the strreet. On that day he will sat\y to them "I never knew you. Simply put, if Jesus denies me I am doomed. but if he "knows" me my salvation depend on whether I was in a relationship with him. Did he knw me or nt?

Jesus does not mention anything about knowing us as some understand it TODAY.
Jesus clearly said why He would not recognize those in Matthew 7.
Because they were LAWLESS....

Good analogy. But may I add one more thing? Doesn't you behavior arrise from who you are as an individual. Doesn't reflect your wish to liive, your your desire to do the right thing, your ability to recognize wisdom? Our actions reveal something true and real about or motives, wishes, desires, dreams,hopes and expectations

We might even say that God prepared you for that one moment?

The Holy Spirit is supposed to help us suppress the sin nature.
If my behavior arises from the type of individual I am...then where is the transformation?

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[Toknow]

NKJ John 15:14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

NKJ John 15:15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Seems like His friends have know what He's taught and do what He says.

Missed that.
Thanks!

 

[Gideon300]

John 14:12 HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME iese

Believes is denoting of an ongoing action....
we must be believing in Jesus at the time of our death.
Belief IN Jesus is not a one time occurance,,,but is to continue throughout our life.

Also, yes, IN does have a very specific meaning.
To believe Jesus means I just believe something about Him....
maybe something He stated, maybe something He might do.

To believe IN Jesus is using the word BELIEVE as it was understood at the time of the writing of the NT.
If we believe IN jesus then we believe in His very being....
We trust Him,,,learn from Him,,,follow Him,,,,pattern our life/ideas after Him.

I don't understand how it could mean INTO.



i believe the IN in John 17:20 has the same meaning.

I believe the IN in JOhn 17:21 has a different meaning.
The Father is iterally IN Jesus,,,as Jesus is IN the Father.

The THAT THEY MAY ALSO BE IN US of verse 21 is not to be taken literally as in verse 21.
Do you agree?
I understand it to mean that we (christians) are to be one as Jesus and Father are one.

I don't understand the difference between
BELIEVING INTO ME which you say is correct.
vs
BELIEVING IN ME

But what's the difference?


Without God's help we can do nothing.

Yes sir !
Doing is what counts.
Speaking counts for very little.

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Cherry pick scripture again. …

Matthew 12: 36 & 37
But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

[Toknow]

Faith-Alone has been distorted since it first came about. Faith-Alone saves as long as "Faith" is understood biblically.

I attended a seminary that was Free-Grace and assisted with some things that meant reading the articles that were submitted for their main publication. I watched the thinking progressively trend into making Faith absolutely passive on men's part.

Current Faith-Alone is not historical Faith-Alone and the current version is pushed on these threads which shows how prevalent it is in current pulpits.

Yes sir !!
The meaning of Faith Alone has certainly been distorted to mean that NOTHING is required of us AFTER salvation.

Martin Luther.....who stated that man is saved by faith alone and not by works, as Eph 2:8 states...
also believe in doing good works/deeds.

He also DID NOT believe in OSAS.

 

[studier]

You are only fooling yourself.

We will never perish. There is no condemnation. We are born of imperishable seed.

2+2= 4. You can't do trigonometry if you THROW THE BASICS OUT.

You are stuck in sour milk. Sorry.

You're very emotional about this topic and not presenting much of any meat you think you have.

 

[Cameron143]

You and I know I disagree with your theology. I saw your determinism in your post. With a deterministic lens all non-determinism looks wrong and mistaken.

Notwithstanding, your statement was demonstrably and scripturally false. While I believe more is determined than you, my argument had nothing to do with determinism; rather, it was simply scriptural.

 

[Toknow]

How is your obedience going today, asking for a friend.

Matthew 7:5

 

[Toknow]

NO, the push back is because you assert obedience is necessary to maintain salvation.

Newsflash.. your salvation doctrine does not produce more salt or light... because it is not supported by scripture.

Obedience IS necessary.

Whether you think so or not.

 

[Toknow]

Pretty good deflection. You make a statement. It is shown to be false by scripture. You talk about everything but your mistake.

Wow.
Humility at its best.

Time to get off this crazy thread.

Those that do not undersand scripture
or
Do not accept it
and
Do not believe obedience TO GOD is necessary....

should be left here to grumble amongst themselves.

 

[Toknow]

I'm nearly 75. I've spent more than enough of my limited time left discussing salvation with you. You ignore the clear word of God and cherry pick what suits you. If what I've said to date is not enough, then you are unteachable.

Gideon...
You think I have something to learn from you???
Yeah. Time to get off this demon-possessed thread.