Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

........

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me ​

I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my ​

will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who ​

sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them ​

up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

For Jesus to lose just one of all the Father gave Him?

Would mean that Jesus failed to do the Father's will.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him ​

who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of ​

all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." ​

I wonder what kind of excuse some may want to try when it is shown that they have been left without one.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him ​

who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of ​

all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." ​

We can not lose our salvation.
But, some sure can lose their mind.

.......

I know by now Genez.

This is the best you can do.

At least if you could read my posts and maybe understand what I'm posting.
but not even that.

 

[studier]

cont'd

some say the present tense este in the perfect paraphrastic means lasting forever.

To address this for your readers with total precision and zero theological bias, we must look at the specific function of the auxiliary verb "este" (you are) within the periphrastic construction.

The Role of "Este" (Present Indicative)
In a Perfect Passive Periphrastic, the finite verb (este) and the participle (sesōsmenoi) work together to create a single verbal idea.

• The Tense of "Este": Este is in the present tense. In this construction, its job is to anchor the "completed state" of the participle to the speaker’s present moment.
• The Duration: Grammatically, the present tense indicative (este) denotes contemporaneous reality. It tells us that at the time Paul was writing, the Ephesians "are" (currently) in that state.

Does "Este" Mean "Lasting Forever"?
From a strictly linguistic standpoint, the answer is no. The present tense indicative does not possess an inherent "infinite" or "eternal" quality.
unfoldingWord Greek Grammar

1. Temporal Limits: The present tense signifies what is true now. While it implies the state is currently "ongoing" (it hasn't stopped yet), it contains no grammatical "code" for the future.
2. State vs. Action: In a periphrastic construction, the emphasis is on the existing condition. It highlights that the subject is "occupying" the state of being saved. However, being in a state does not grammatically prove that the state is unchangeable.
3. The "Forever" Inference: Any claim that este implies "forever" is a theological inference based on the nature of salvation, not the nature of the Greek present tense. Linguists and grammarians (such as Daniel Wallace) note that the perfect tense describes a state existing at the time of the statement, with no grammatical implication that the results must continue into the infinite future.

Summary of Grammatical Facts

• Past: The action (the "saving") is finished/completed (Perfect Participle).
• Present: The state resulting from that action is currently true (Present Indicative "este").
• Future: The grammar is silent. It neither guarantees that the state will last forever nor suggests it will end.

Conclusion for your readers: To claim the verb este means "lasting forever" is to ask the Greek grammar to do something it wasn't designed to do. The grammar confirms a present reality, while theology (external to the grammar) is used to decide if that reality is permanent or conditional.

---

 

[Genez]

I have to go....
but

IF God made a promise that He intends to keep.....
what are all those teachings of Jesus that state that we can become lost again?

What can be lost again?
Not salvation.

Yet, we can fail to become an overcomer, and suffer a loss of reward.
You can't lose salvation from Hell.
But you can sure as hell lose the rewards that God so much wanted to bless your with for eternity!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

1 Cor 3:11-15

Sometimes I wonder why God has us meet people like you...

 

[studier]

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR FREE WILL.

Do you agree with this?

If you do NOT,,,I suggest you change your denomination.

The absence of free will is the backbone of calvinism.
Right along side total depravity.

It's kind of interesting dealing with a disagreement with the monergism attributed to calvinism and see volition at entrance but then switch to a seeming form of monergism and negate volition after entrance.

 

[Toknow]

It teaches you can fall from grace. I can't find anywhere it teaches once made alive in Christ, you can die again.

Let's see if you understand these passages....
there are many, many more.

A person can fall away....be cut off....

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away,

they were saved...
and then fell away.


Romans 11.19-22
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

If we do not continue in God's kindness,,,we could be cut off.



1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Some will fall away.


Matthew 24:10-11
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.


Some will fall away.

 

[studier]

I'm talking about regeneration as that is the context, being made alive in Christ. If you consider that is the total salvation package? I don't know what to say anymore.

Why don't you show the context by quoting the context of Eph2:8-9 you wish us to look at and explain what you mean as you take us through what you'd like us to consider?

 

[Toknow]

What can be lost again?
Not salvation.

Yet, we can fail to become an overcomer, and suffer a loss of reward.
You can't lose salvation from Hell.
But you can sure as hell lose the rewards that God so much wanted to bless your with for eternity!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

1 Cor 3:11-15

Sometimes I wonder why God has us meet people like you...

Genez....
Do you believe in purgatory?

 

[sawdust]

If you know calvinist theology,
why do you keep saying that God does everything.

And you've never stated what SANCTIFICATION means.

You obviously haven't read enough of my posts if you think that. I constantly say the onus to believe is on us.

Sanctification is being transformed to the full stature of Christ or being made Christ like. It is developing a character as outlined in the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Roger316]

it continues into the future IF we want it to.

In Ephesians chapter 1, Paul argues that we were saved by Grace. As we have been discussing, He means that God has not only saved the Ephesians, but the salvation will continue into the future. He illustrates this fact through the inheritance metaphor.

In summary

• God promised an inheritance.
• God gave the Spirit as the arrabōn.
• Therefore, God has obligated Himself to complete what He began.
• The Spirit is the living proof that the promise is already in motion.

Since our salvation is guaranteed by God through a legally binding agreement, there is nothing that can stop us from being granted our full inheritance: our glorification.

I keep asking if our free will is taken away at salvation.

Our will is not taken away, it is transformed.

Moses uses the phrase “circumcision of the heart” to describe an inner work of God that removes stubbornness and opens a person to love and obey Him. In Deuteronomy, he contrasts an uncircumcised heart with a stiff neck—a biblical image for pride, resistance, and refusal to yield to God’s instruction. Removing the “foreskin” of the heart means cutting away that hardness so the heart becomes responsive, humble, and willing to follow God’s ways. Moses also compares an uncircumcised heart to unplowed, fallow soil—ground too hard for seed to take root—so heart‑circumcision is God’s call to break up that hardness so His word can be planted and bear fruit.

How Moses frames the idea​

Moses speaks of heart‑circumcision in two complementary ways:

• A command: “Circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer” (Deut. 10:16). This calls Israel to repent of stubbornness and yield to God.
• A promise: “The LORD your God will circumcise your heart… so that you will love the LORD your God” (Deut. 30:6). This reveals that only God can perform the deep inner change required for true obedience.

Moses’ metaphor becomes the foundation for later prophets and for Paul:

• Jeremiah echoes it by urging Israel to break up their hard soil and remove the “foreskin” of their hearts.
• Paul picks it up to explain that true belonging to God is marked by the Spirit’s work in the heart, not merely external rituals.

Jesus parable of the sower reminds us of Jeremiah's point, except that instead of Israel tilling their own soil, God tills the soil for them.

Moses’ call for circumcision of the heart and Jesus’ parable of the sower are two sides of the same truth: God must deal with the inner condition of the human heart for His word to take root and bear fruit.

Do we have to WANT to continue to be saved?

The Point is, we will want to continue to be saved because God has circumcised our hearts.

If so,,, do WE have any input into our salvation?

What do you mean by input? what form would input take?

And, let me add:
If the statement THEY WERE NEVER REALLY SAVED is correct....

then
it means we can never be sure of our salvation.
That statement CAUSES one to be unable to be assured.

HOW would any of us know whether or not we are really saved?
There would be no way!

Any one of us could be in the NEVER REALLY SAVED camp.

The proof of our faith is like purified gold.

 

[Toknow]

What can be lost again?
Not salvation.

Yet, we can fail to become an overcomer, and suffer a loss of reward.
You can't lose salvation from Hell.
But you can sure as hell lose the rewards that God so much wanted to bless your with for eternity!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

1 Cor 3:11-15

Sometimes I wonder why God has us meet people like you...

So that those reading along do not misunderstand the teachings of the NT.

You are not properly teaching NT theology/soteriology.

Do you believe in purgatory?

 

[studier]

You seem to like that notion?

I try to go with some of the flow to speak to people where they are. I do have a handle on the perfect paraphrastic as taught by scholars of the Greek language, and I ask repeatedly to be provided with links to anything that would show how I'm wrong about the language.

I like what Scripture actually says. My request to God on day one was to please teach me the Truth. I'm still learning, and you?

 

[Toknow]

You obviously haven't read enough of my posts if you think that. I constantly say the onus to believe is on us.

Sanctification is being transformed to the full stature of Christ or being made Christ like. It is developing a character as outlined in the fruit of the Spirit.

Perfect.

Now, let's say you decide to stop obeying Jesus,,,,as it seems some here have plainly stated that obedience is not really necessary.
And they wouldn't be debating this topic.

Someone here said we could return to THE WORLD and still be saved.

Is this true?

If we are saved....
and then return to the world....
what happens to our sanctification?
Our salvation?

Are we saved anyway even though we stop following Jesus?

And you believe we are required to do nothing....
see what Paul teaches:


Galatians 6:1-5
1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

5For each one will bear his own load.

 

[studier]

Well.. start giving ones with meaning and see if it produces anything better?

Jesus did not fail to win over the Pharisees because of weak exegesis.

Recognizing what the real problem is saves one from unneeded wear and tear.

Again, doesn't really answer anything about the verb question that you started.

 

[Roger316]

No, not really. Which AI did you use?

I was using the Bing browser. I did it to save time.

2. Does it imply a "Forever" or "Lasting" State?
Precisely speaking, the Greek Perfect tense does not grammatically encode the future. It is a "snapshot" of the present reality resulting from the past. Whether that state continues forever or can be lost is a question of theology and context, not a function of the verb tense itself.

• Temporal Boundary: The Perfect tense guarantees the state up to and including the present moment. It does not, by its own power, project that state into the infinite future.
• Reversibility: The grammar is silent on whether the state is irrevocable. For example, in John 9:25, the man says, "I was blind, now I see" (using a similar logic of changed states). The fact that he "now sees" describes his current condition, but the grammar itself doesn't prove he could never go blind again; it only confirms his current sight is a result of a prior healing.

I agree. If I led you to believe otherwise, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I am not relying on Greek Grammar to support my contention that the process of salvation extends from Justification to Glorification. My argument is based on Paul's use of arrabōn in Ephesians 1
What does your AI say about Pauls use of the term arrabōn in Ephesians 1?

 

[Roger316]

I've explained the meaning of the tense extensively and repeatedly GeneZ. You may be tuning into the "game" at a late point in the discussion and drawing a false conclusion.

What's helpful to our understanding is that the perfect tense does not give assurance to the believer beyond the point the perfect tense was used to speak of their then current state.

Eternal Security does not come from that verb.

Let's see what @Roger316 would like to agree or disagree with.

I agree with you here. I hesitate to make grammatical arguments because of the inherent danger of taking a single word out of context. Good call in my opinion. Thanks for the reminder.

Sincerely,

 

[Toknow]

In Ephesians chapter 1, Paul argues that we were saved by Grace. As we have been discussing, He means that God has not only saved the Ephesians, but the salvation will continue into the future. He illustrates this fact through the inheritance metaphor.

In summary

• God promised an inheritance.
• God gave the Spirit as the arrabōn.
• Therefore, God has obligated Himself to complete what He began.
• The Spirit is the living proof that the promise is already in motion.

Since our salvation is guaranteed by God through a legally binding agreement, there is nothing that can stop us from being granted our full inheritance: our glorification.

Our will is not taken away, it is transformed.

Moses uses the phrase “circumcision of the heart” to describe an inner work of God that removes stubbornness and opens a person to love and obey Him. In Deuteronomy, he contrasts an uncircumcised heart with a stiff neck—a biblical image for pride, resistance, and refusal to yield to God’s instruction. Removing the “foreskin” of the heart means cutting away that hardness so the heart becomes responsive, humble, and willing to follow God’s ways. Moses also compares an uncircumcised heart to unplowed, fallow soil—ground too hard for seed to take root—so heart‑circumcision is God’s call to break up that hardness so His word can be planted and bear fruit.

How Moses frames the idea​

Moses speaks of heart‑circumcision in two complementary ways:

• A command: “Circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer” (Deut. 10:16). This calls Israel to repent of stubbornness and yield to God.
• A promise: “The LORD your God will circumcise your heart… so that you will love the LORD your God” (Deut. 30:6). This reveals that only God can perform the deep inner change required for true obedience.

Moses’ metaphor becomes the foundation for later prophets and for Paul:

• Jeremiah echoes it by urging Israel to break up their hard soil and remove the “foreskin” of their hearts.
• Paul picks it up to explain that true belonging to God is marked by the Spirit’s work in the heart, not merely external rituals.

Jesus parable of the sower reminds us of Jeremiah's point, except that instead of Israel tilling their own soil, God tills the soil for them.

Moses’ call for circumcision of the heart and Jesus’ parable of the sower are two sides of the same truth: God must deal with the inner condition of the human heart for His word to take root and bear fruit.


The Point is, we will want to continue to be saved because God has circumcised our hearts.

What do you mean by input? what form would input take?

The proof of our faith is like purified gold.

You missed my post no. 8257 on the above subject matter.

IF Eph 2:8 teaches that salvation is assured into the future...
then Paul made conflicting statements throughout his writings.

No more time to post scripture....
but here:
Hebrews 6:4
1 Tim 4:1
2 Cor 11:3
Rev 2:4-5
Hebr 3:12
2 Peter 2:20-22
Romans 11:19-22

Just 1 or 2 of the above would be sufficient to cause conflict...and there are many more.

So I would suggest that Eph 2:8 has to be harmonized with the above.
No Greek necessary.

You're speaking of the Mosaic Covenant.
No heart cutting in the Mosaic Covenant.
If you want to discuss,,,tomorrow. I taught 7 Covenants..No problem for me.
In the Mosaic Covenant the heart is OF STONE...

What do I mean by input?
A relationship takes two.
Even for humans.

This is what I mean by input...just posted it for another member...


Galatians 6:1-5
1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

5For each one will bear his own load.



And any other verse that speaks about salt or works or good deeds, etc.

 

[studier]

Didn't you say you saw faith as a gift based on the structure of the verse? (I may be confusing you with someone else)

No. Some think Eph2:8 says faith is the gift. I think the gift per the grammar is "salvation by grace through faith".

Again, no disrespect, but I'm not moving from the verb tense issue until it's resolved or completely set aside or denied because it doesn't fit a systematic theology.

If you're watching you can now see that AI is in use. So it seems part of this discussion will now involve showing how AI can provide answers to fit certain theologies and needs to be directed specifically to providing input from Greek scholarship apart from theological bias.

This is part of why I offered to paste instruction directly from a popular advanced Greek Grammar earlier and from others if necessary.

 

[Roger316]

When you say "continues into the future" please explain what you mean - beginning at the past event and forever - or beginning at the past event and future from there up to the point of the discussion - or???

I posted something to you recently on this matter and don't think you responded. Maybe one of us missed the other??

I'm still in recovery from the hospital. I am forced to take it more slowly these days. Thanks for your help sorting this out. I'm learning from you. May the Lord richly bless you.

 

[studier]

I agree with you here. I hesitate to make grammatical arguments because of the inherent danger of taking a single word out of context. Good call in my opinion. Thanks for the reminder.

Sincerely,

Thank you for clarifying. Appreciated.

 

[studier]

I'm still in recovery from the hospital. I am forced to take it more slowly these days. Thanks for your help sorting this out. I'm learning from you. May the Lord richly bless you.

Understood and thanks for the info. Prayers for your recovery whatever it may involve.