Loss of salvation???

[CS1]

It's meaningless to try and rationalize with those who are not at all rational.

MM

truer words never spoken. You are right.

 

[Kroogz]

Excellent!!

Thank you, you have more patience than me.

Yep. We have a "scholar" that is a sophomore(smart moron) in this area. And he is showing it.

 

[Genez]

If you fall away from grace....
you no longer have God's grace.
You are no longer saved.

Must go.

No grace?
No longer saved from evil...
But, not, from Hell.

You are way too one dimensional in your understanding of salvation and grace.

 

[Toknow]

I don't see the conflict.

Go ahead, I am willing to listen.

Yes, I am. Perhaps we should look at Deuteronomy together. In summary, Moses first challenges Israel to circumcise their hearts, which Israel was unable to do. Then He prophesied that God would circumcise their hearts in the coming years so that they will finally obey him.

Paul makes this clear in Galatians and Romans, Gos circumscises our hearts,

I partially agree. However, have a look at Jeremiah 31:31 ff

Good morning Roger
I wanted to come back to this to just say the following:

Regarding the creation of conflict in scripture....

I find that if we are unable to harmonize scripture/reconcile it with itself....
we will find that there are many conflicts in the NT.


I'll give you 2:

1. The doctrine of predestination and free will.

There are some verses in the NT that do indeed sound as if predestination is present.
But then there are other verses that state that man has free will to choose God.

2. The teaching of OSAS does seem to appear in the NT.
But then there are other veses that clearly state that salvation has conditions and that it could, indeed, be lost.


So...

Unless we want to admit that there are conflicts in the NT...
and there cannot be or it would be worthless....

We have to then harmonize every verse and make sure that we understand what it's teaching...
and not just what it SEEMS to be teaching.

All those verses I listed teach that it's possible to lose our salvation under certain circumstances.

So.. was Paul causing conflict...or do we not understand some of his teachings.

I vote for number two and endeavor to take all of the NT into consideration.


For instance, an example:

Jesus said that nothing can remove us from the hand of God.

Jesus said that if we do not act on His words, our house will fall.

So which is it?

How to reconcile?

Surely there must be a way......

Let's check:

If one does not act on the words of Jesus....he will fail (his house will fall).
This seems certain and I'm unable to explain it away.

Nothing or no one can REMOVE us from the hand of God.
Sounds like I no longer have free will here...how about if I want to jump out of the hand of God?
The NT teaches that man has free will.

Voila! We have our solution.
Nothing and no one can remove us from the hand of God....
but we could choose to remove ourselves from God's hand.

Perfect harmonization.
OSAS is not a biblical doctrine.....
as per Jesus.

 

[Toknow]

Yep. We have a "scholar" that is a sophomore(smart moron) in this area. And he is showing it.

Gossipping again.

Your Christianity is shining through...
as usual.

No transformation.
What does that say?

 

[Toknow]

No grace?
No longer saved from evil...
But, not, from Hell.

You are way too one dimensional in your understanding of salvation and grace.

Genez,
Jesus died on that cross to save you from HELL.

If you do not have God's grace for salvation...as per Ephesians 2:8

You are NOT saved.

The following show that we become LOST again.
The LOST are not going to heaven.

A person can fall away....be cut off....
If you FALL AWAY or are CUT OFF....
you are no longer part of vine.



Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away,
they were saved...
and then fell away.


Romans 11.19-22
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

If we do not continue in God's kindness,,,we could be cut off.



1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Some will fall away.


Matthew 24:10-11
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.


Some will fall away.
And become lost again.

 

[Toknow]

Answering the simpler ones tonight so I can shut down. Thanks for more complete version.

Since I've said a few times that I'm not moving from the verb tense issue yet, do you agree or disagree that the perfect tense verb in itself does not provide one way or another info on eternal assurance?

Do you think it's necessary for us to see eternal security in this verb tense or that we can get it elsewhere IF it's truth?

You know that I believe that there is sufficient evidence in NT writings that make clear that salvation is conditional on continuing faith and obedience to God.

However, this morning i looked into Eph 2:8 in some different bibles (the commentaries).

Here are two:

1 The tense of the verb suggests a completed action with emphasis on its present effect.

Present effect.
The NT always speaks to the PRESENT.
BELIEVE
TRUST
are always in the present,,,which means that change can take place at any time.


2. HAVE BEEN SAVED: Salvation is here described as a present state resulting from a previous action.
The preceding context indicates that deliverance from sin and spiritual death is in view.
That salvation is not thereby assured but is a future hope.


Again,,,the explanation is that it's a PRESENT state....
from a previous action....
That previous action must CONTINUE to be present in the future.


I understand that you're convo with Qt and Roger goes beyond this...
but I thought I'd post the above for those of us that cannot reach that far.

 

[Toknow]

Just because you are not one doesn't you are either. I made my point very clear. I was accused of making Paul a false prophet. If you did not see that, then you are speaking on something you know nothing about. Thank you.

YOU are making Paul contradict himself.

YOU are unable to support your position and prefer to remove yourself from the conversation.

You sure do give up easily!

Difficult to prove OSAS when it's not in the NT.

 

[studier]

Seeing an opportunity, and taking full advantage of it to share Col 3:3

For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

These are the aorist indicative active and the perfect indicative middle or passive.

Our life is hidden with Christ in God. How or when then, would it be (re)vealed?

The when is in Col3:4. Is this really your question, or in the context of the discussion are the verb tenses your question?

 

[studier]

You know that I believe that there is sufficient evidence in NT writings that make clear that salvation is conditional on continuing faith and obedience to God.

However, this morning i looked into Eph 2:8 in some different bibles (the commentaries).

Here are two:

1 The tense of the verb suggests a completed action with emphasis on its present effect.

Present effect.
The NT always speaks to the PRESENT.
BELIEVE
TRUST
are always in the present,,,which means that change can take place at any time.


2. HAVE BEEN SAVED: Salvation is here described as a present state resulting from a previous action.
The preceding context indicates that deliverance from sin and spiritual death is in view.
That salvation is not thereby assured but is a future hope.


Again,,,the explanation is that it's a PRESENT state....
from a previous action....
That previous action must CONTINUE to be present in the future.


I understand that you're convo with Qt and Roger goes beyond this...
but I thought I'd post the above for those of us that cannot reach that far.

Actually those explanations are what discussion about the Greek perfect tense is about. It speaks of a present condition based upon a past action/event. It can focus on the past action from which the current condition exists, or it can focus of the current condition. The point being that it is silent about the future and is not to be used to say 'forever'.

 

[Roger316]

Good morning Roger
I wanted to come back to this to just say the following:

Regarding the creation of conflict in scripture....

I find that if we are unable to harmonize scripture/reconcile it with itself....
we will find that there are many conflicts in the NT.


I'll give you 2:

1. The doctrine of predestination and free will.

There are some verses in the NT that do indeed sound as if predestination is present.
But then there are other verses that state that man has free will to choose God.

2. The teaching of OSAS does seem to appear in the NT.
But then there are other veses that clearly state that salvation has conditions and that it could, indeed, be lost.


So...

Unless we want to admit that there are conflicts in the NT...
and there cannot be or it would be worthless....

We have to then harmonize every verse and make sure that we understand what it's teaching...
and not just what it SEEMS to be teaching.

All those verses I listed teach that it's possible to lose our salvation under certain circumstances.

So.. was Paul causing conflict...or do we not understand some of his teachings.

I vote for number two and endeavor to take all of the NT into consideration.


For instance, an example:

Jesus said that nothing can remove us from the hand of God.

Jesus said that if we do not act on His words, our house will fall.

So which is it?

How to reconcile?

Surely there must be a way......

Let's check:

If one does not act on the words of Jesus....he will fail (his house will fall).
This seems certain and I'm unable to explain it away.

Nothing or no one can REMOVE us from the hand of God.
Sounds like I no longer have free will here...how about if I want to jump out of the hand of God?
The NT teaches that man has free will.

Voila! We have our solution.
Nothing and no one can remove us from the hand of God....
but we could choose to remove ourselves from God's hand.

Perfect harmonization.
OSAS is not a biblical doctrine.....
as per Jesus.

I was expecting for you to tell me why Peter, Paul and James were NOT claiming that an attested faith will persevere.

I understand your point about freedom of the will, but the solution isn't to assume that our freedom is inviolable. I am not aware of any verse of scripture to support the idea that our will is inviolable.

The Bible teaches circumcision of the heart when God infringes on our hearts on purpose.

 

[Roger316]

God turns our stoney heart to flesh in the New Covenant.
The heart is circumcised.

Circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic.
Baptism is the sign of the New

Must go.

Happy to converse with you.
Too much to know!
'night.

Take care of yourself.

Good Night Thanks

 

[Roger316]

same problem with arrabon in Eph 1.

same conflict if it means what some believe it means.

The Holy Spirit is given as a down payment.
To be redeemed at the end
IF WE PERSEVERE.

And we will persevere. That's Paul's point.

I'll bet we've all had a mortagage.
The down payment guarantees that the house is mine.
IF
I continue to make the mortgage payments till it's paid off.

If I stop making the payments...the house will be lost.

An earnest shows an intention.
A promise.
The intention must be met by both parties.

Paul is speaking about an inheritance,

 

[studier]

I can agree the doctrine of eternal security cannot be built on this verse alone based on the tense of the verb.

So, we have the verb tense alone issue behind us. Thanks for clarifying.

I think what we disagree on is whether there is any part we play in this verse. You seem to see some sort of dependence on us in this verse, I see none. It is for that reason, rather than the tense of the verse, why I say it is forever true and you see it failing under certain conditions. Correct me if I'm hearing you wrong.

We don't have to choose to believe?

 

[Qt]

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.

The context of the letter says different. Starting in chapter 2 it says, How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, in Jesus Christ. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor we the holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling when tempted. (2:18-3:1) For He is faithful over His own house. Whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the expectation firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye, the partakers of the heavenly calling will hear his voice, Take heed, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (3:7-12) Not holding fast to the succoring when we are tempted. So exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin through an evil heart of unbelief. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (3:14) hear his voice, His succoring when tempted though deceitfulness of sin. Harden not your hearts through unbelief, being disobedient. For it is impossible for us who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If we shall fall away, to renew us again unto repentance; seeing They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (6:1-7)

 

[Toknow]

And we will persevere. That's Paul's point.

Paul is speaking about an inheritance,

We will persevere?
So then @mailmandan is correct in his interpretation of Hebrews 6

You made several statement to him...here's one:

, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (3:14) hear his voice, His succoring when tempted though deceitfulness of sin. Harden not your hearts through unbelief, being disobedient.


So is OSAS true or not?
Are we supposed to hold fast to our confidence?
And steadfast till THE END?
Are we told NOT to harden our hearts?
Through unbelief and disobeience?

I do so love clarity.

 

[Toknow]

I was expecting for you to tell me why Peter, Paul and James were NOT claiming that an attested faith will persevere.

I understand your point about freedom of the will, but the solution isn't to assume that our freedom is inviolable. I am not aware of any verse of scripture to support the idea that our will is inviolable.

The Bible teaches circumcision of the heart when God infringes on our hearts on purpose.

So you DO NOT believe man has free will?

You believe God chooses who will be saved and saves them by making them persevere?

Do I need to post scripture that supports the doctrine of man's free will
or have we misunderstood each other?

OR
Could you post some verses that show that man does not have free will.


And we want to discuss THE GREEK!!
We have problems with THE ENGLISH.

 

[mailmandan]

The context of the letter says different. Starting in chapter 2 it says, How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, in Jesus Christ. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor we the holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling when tempted. (2:18-3:1) For He is faithful over His own house. Whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the expectation firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye, the partakers of the heavenly calling will hear his voice, Take heed, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (3:7-12) Not holding fast to the succoring when we are tempted. So exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin through an evil heart of unbelief. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (3:14) hear his voice, His succoring when tempted though deceitfulness of sin. Harden not your hearts through unbelief, being disobedient. For it is impossible for us who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If we shall fall away, to renew us again unto repentance; seeing They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (6:1-7)

The context of the letter does not change what I posted on Hebrews 6:4-6. In regard to Hebrews 2:3, this rhetorical question implies that there is no other means of escape from divine judgment if one neglects the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. In regard to
Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Now although the letter is addressed to "holy brethren" you can always find make believers mixed in with the group. Hence, evil heart of unbelief, departed from the living God. *Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6:4-6 in my post that you pinned but I will cover once again what you bolded. In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

 

[mailmandan]

We will persevere?
So then @mailmandan is correct in his interpretation of Hebrews 6?

Yes. Only His saints/those who are born of God will persevere (Psalm 37:28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) and only God infallibly knows who they are.

 

[mailmandan]

And we will persevere. That's Paul's point.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1:5 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: