Loss of salvation???

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Yes. ;) Only His saints/those who are born of God will persevere (Psalm 37:28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) and only God infallibly knows who they are.
You're sounding a bit reformed.

Some are of God and they will NOT want to persevere.

For different reasons.
Here are some that are found in scripture:

TRIBULATION LUKE 8:13
SINNING 1 JOHN 3:9
GOING BACK TO THE LAW HEBREWS 6
ABANDONING THE FAITH 1 TIM 4:1
GOING BACK TO THE WORLD 2 PETER 2:20....
NOT OBEYING GOD JOHN3:36 PROBABLY THE SAME AS SINNING
NOT FOLLOWING JESUS MATTHEW 7:24.....

There are probably more but that's all I could think of right now.


And, if you want to say that they WERE NEVER SAVED....

you are certainly creating a big problem for everyone.
IF that is the case...
how could any of us know we are saved??

If those leaving were NEVER SAVED,,,but they THINK they were....
what assurance do we have?

Oh the conflicts and problems when theology is not biblical.
 
The context of the letter does not change what I posted on Hebrews 6:4-6. In regard to Hebrews 2:3, this rhetorical question implies that there is no other means of escape from divine judgment if one neglects the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. In regard to
Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Now although the letter is addressed to "holy brethren" you can always find make believers mixed in with the group. Hence, evil heart of unbelief, departed from the living God. *Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6:4-6 in my post that you pinned but I will cover once again what you bolded. In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
You do hate those IF's.

You said:

Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are,

(demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.


Yes, mailmandan...
it is WHOSE HOUSE WE ARE

IF

WE HOLD FAST....

The IF above does not require any future tense to be demonstrated.
We are the house IF we hold fast.

We already are the house...
IF
we hold fast.

Holding fast in the condition required to REMAIN God's house...
to REMAIN partakes of Christ.


Paragraphs to explain that pesky little word...
IF

They are partakers NOW...this is the part you do not like.....
IF they REAMAIN.

Always an English lesson instead of a soteriological lesson.
BECAUSE
You cannot get around what it means in plain English.



 
The when is in Col3:4. Is this really your question, or in the context of the discussion are the verb tenses your question?
Col3:1 begins with one of those IF clauses, and the context of Put On the New Self is cross referenced with Eph4:30's context of New Life in Christ.

Eph4:30 "you were sealed" is aorist indicative passive, and the Strong's Greek suggests a connotation of concealment in the sealing.

If the present imperative active is to not grieve the Holy Spirit, in whom we are sealed (aorist indicative passive), why then would it be anything other than an assumption if we conclude a consequence of an unsealing if we do? Seeing that we are sealed for the day of redemption, that is, to be revealed when He appears.
 
You're sounding a bit reformed.
As I said a bit earlier, ultimately the Reformed and the Free-Grace all share some concept of Faith Alone that ends up being essentially monergistic in the "being saved" part of salvation. Whether it's called Perseverance or Eternal Security, the way some speak of it, it's difficult at times to see why they think they disagree with each other so vehemently.
 
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As I said a bit earlier, ultimately the Reformed and the Free-Grace all share some concept of Faith Alone that ends up being essentially monergistic in the "being saved" part of salvation. Whether it's called Perseverance or Eternal Security, the way some speak of it, it's difficult at times to see why they think they disagree with each other so vehemently.
Is there no distinction their arguments of limited atonement?
 
YOU are making Paul contradict himself.

YOU are unable to support your position and prefer to remove yourself from the conversation.

You sure do give up easily!

Difficult to prove OSAS when it's not in the NT.
You, saying that I am making Paul contradict himself doesn't make it True. FYI giving up, what I am giving up? I have supported it you don't agree. I am not here to make you agree. When did I ever say anything about OSAS? You have a hidden objective and looking to be confrontational. You're a legend in your own mind. You don't even know if I support OSAS or do not. nowhere in this thread did I say I agree or disagree. My comments have to do with those who think they follow the whole LAW as I believe you think you do and others here.
 
You're sounding a bit reformed.

Some are of God and they will NOT want to persevere.

For different reasons.
Here are some that are found in scripture:

TRIBULATION LUKE 8:13
SINNING 1 JOHN 3:9
GOING BACK TO THE LAW HEBREWS 6
ABANDONING THE FAITH 1 TIM 4:1
GOING BACK TO THE WORLD 2 PETER 2:20....
NOT OBEYING GOD JOHN3:36 PROBABLY THE SAME AS SINNING
NOT FOLLOWING JESUS MATTHEW 7:24.....

There are probably more but that's all I could think of right now.

And, if you want to say that they WERE NEVER SAVED....

you are certainly creating a big problem for everyone.
IF that is the case...
how could any of us know we are saved??

If those leaving were NEVER SAVED,,,but they THINK they were....
what assurance do we have?

Oh the conflicts and problems when theology is not biblical.
In regard to Luke 8:13, the seed fell into rocky soil, which resulted in a shallow, temporary belief that had no root, produceed no fruit and withered away. Salvation never took root so there was no loss of salvation. In CONTRAST with the 4th soil, where the seed fell on good ground which represents those who heard the word with an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance (Luke 8:15).

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Now according to you, there are those who are born of God that practice sin and lose their salvation? Is that what you claim in contradiction to John?

I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6. Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In regard to 1 Timothy 4:1, departing from the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines is done by some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, yet nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Roman Catholicism is a good example of such a departure. I find it interesting that forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods is mentioned.

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*
Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being partakers of the divine nature.

In regard to John 3:36, the one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (NASB) So, what does John mean by does not obey? The KJV says believeth not. The HCSB translation reads - the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. Bingo! To obey the Son here in (John 3:36) is to choose to believe in the Son, just as John 3:18 reads - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In regard to Matthew 7:24, those who do not follow Jesus were never saved. In context, Jesus is discussing false prophets and contrasting good trees that bear good fruit with bad trees that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Only genuine believers have assurance of salvation. (1 John 5:11-13)
 
As I said a bit earlier, ultimately the Reformed and the Free-Grace all share some concept of Faith Alone that ends up being essentially monergistic in the "being saved" part of salvation. Whether it's called Perseverance or Eternal Security, the way some speak of it, it's difficult at times to see why they think they disagree with each other so vehemently.
Great point....
never thought of this.
Monergism in both systems.
 
More rules for thee but not for me.
;)

Not gossip btw.
Well Jeff,,,it's not me you have to please.
It's God that you must please.

Jesus does require a change of heart...
a transformation.

A convrsion.

This happens by repenting.
Many don't even know what it means to repent.
 
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More rules for thee but not for me.
;)

Not gossip btw.
You just added NOT GOSSIP BY THE WAY.

What would YOU call it when persons speak about someone sans their presence...
or as we like to say colloquially "behind their back".

It's good to know what words mean.
So we don't engage in improper behavior.
 
You, saying that I am making Paul contradict himself doesn't make it True. FYI giving up, what I am giving up? I have supported it you don't agree. I am not here to make you agree. When did I ever say anything about OSAS? You have a hidden objective and looking to be confrontational. You're a legend in your own mind. You don't even know if I support OSAS or do not. nowhere in this thread did I say I agree or disagree. My comments have to do with those who think they follow the whole LAW as I believe you think you do and others here.
What IS the Law?

Are YOU Jewish?
 
You, saying that I am making Paul contradict himself doesn't make it True. FYI giving up, what I am giving up? I have supported it you don't agree. I am not here to make you agree. When did I ever say anything about OSAS? You have a hidden objective and looking to be confrontational. You're a legend in your own mind. You don't even know if I support OSAS or do not. nowhere in this thread did I say I agree or disagree. My comments have to do with those who think they follow the whole LAW as I believe you think you do and others here.
And,,,it's rather childish to post the above
INSTEAD OF
just replying to my post to you explaining why what you're teaching is not biblical.
 
In regard to Luke 8:13, the seed fell into rocky soil, which resulted in a shallow, temporary belief that had no root, produceed no fruit and withered away. Salvation never took root so there was no loss of salvation. In CONTRAST with the 4th soil, where the seed fell on good ground which represents those who heard the word with an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance (Luke 8:15).

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Now according to you, there are those who are born of God that practice sin and lose their salvation? Is that what you claim in contradiction to John?

I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6. Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In regard to 1 Timothy 4:1, departing from the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines is done by some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, yet nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Roman Catholicism is a good example of such a departure. I find it interesting that forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods is mentioned.

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*
Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being partakers of the divine nature.

In regard to John 3:36, the one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (NASB) So, what does John mean by does not obey? The KJV says believeth not. The HCSB translation reads - the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. Bingo! To obey the Son here in (John 3:36) is to choose to believe in the Son, just as John 3:18 reads - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In regard to Matthew 7:24, those who do not follow Jesus were never saved. In context, Jesus is discussing false prophets and contrasting good trees that bear good fruit with bad trees that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Only genuine believers have assurance of salvation. (1 John 5:11-13)
I might reply to all later...
for the upteenth time.

But...
HOW do YOU know you're saved if you keep posting about these make believe believers?

If you think those that fall away were never really saved....
how do you know that YOU are not in that camp and are not really saved?

Your theology makes all of us have NO ASSURANCE AT ALL about our salvation.

At least, with mainline Christian theology, we can know that we're saved because we meet
THE CONDITION.
 
You do hate those IF's.

You said:

Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are,

(demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.


Yes, mailmandan...
it is WHOSE HOUSE WE ARE

IF

WE HOLD FAST....

The IF above does not require any future tense to be demonstrated.
We are the house IF we hold fast.

We already are the house...
IF
we hold fast.

Holding fast in the condition required to REMAIN God's house...
to REMAIN partakes of Christ.

Paragraphs to explain that pesky little word...
IF

They are partakers NOW...this is the part you do not like.....
IF they REAMAIN.

Always an English lesson instead of a soteriological lesson.
BECAUSE
You cannot get around what it means in plain English.
I don't hate IF's. Hebrews 3:6 - but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. So, IF is a confirmation that we are His house.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Again, IF is a confirmation that we have become partakers of Christ. I don't hate the word REMAIN and BTW the word REMAIN is not found here. You are applying your own personal eisegesis to the text.
 
I might reply to all later...
for the upteenth time.

But...
HOW do YOU know you're saved if you keep posting about these make believe believers?

If you think those that fall away were never really saved....
how do you know that YOU are not in that camp and are not really saved?

Your theology makes all of us have NO ASSURANCE AT ALL about our salvation.

At least, with mainline Christian theology, we can know that we're saved because we meet
THE CONDITION.
Certain conditions are simply a confirmation. Our absolute assurance of salvation is found only in Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:11-13)
 
And,,,it's rather childish to post the above
INSTEAD OF
just replying to my post to you explaining why what you're teaching is not biblical.
Your right :) nice talking to you I learned so much!!! I would bow down but my knees don't do that well .
 
So you DO NOT believe man has free will?
It is free with regard to other men, but not with regard to God. I go back to Deuteronomy, where Moses draws a comparison between Israel before God circumcises her heart and afterward. Before God circumcises her heart, she is disobedient, rebellious, and suffers the curses. After he circumcises her heart, she will become obedient and receive the blessings.
You believe God chooses who will be saved and saves them by making them persevere?
God chooses whom to save and he gives them a faith that will persevere.
Do I need to post scripture that supports the doctrine of man's free will
or have we misunderstood each other?
There are no scriptures that speak about man's freedom because man's freedom is understood to be a fact. But there are scriptures that speak about the privation of man's will, what you call "sin nature". In that condition, it is impossible to please God. That being the case, it is impossible to be saved through faith. Left to himself, a man will always fall away from the faith. By contrast, those whom God is saving are blessed with a transformed will, a circumcised heart, a heart indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to the Apostles, these will never fall away.

Let's talk about Romans 8
 
We will persevere?
So then @mailmandan is correct in his interpretation of Hebrews 6

You made several statement to him...here's one:

, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (3:14) hear his voice, His succoring when tempted though deceitfulness of sin. Harden not your hearts through unbelief, being disobedient.


So is OSAS true or not?
This slogan is too confusing to answer concisely. In your view, a person is saved the moment he or she confesses faith. If that is true, then obviously OSAS is not true. But if Salvation is granted to those whom God chooses, then ONCE Chosen Always Chosen.
Are we supposed to hold fast to our confidence?
Yes, I agree.
And steadfast till THE END?
Yes, most certainly
Are we told NOT to harden our hearts?
Through unbelief and disobeience?
We would need to review the context. God tells Israel not to harden her heart, but it wasn't as if she had a choice. Right? She was still in Adam, with a sin nature. How would it make sense to say that our will is enforced independently of our nature?