I wasn't speaking to you.
YOU correctly exegeted Hebrews 6:6
The other poster did not.
I don't understand why the rampage.
Loss of salvation???
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YOU correctly exegeted Hebrews 6:6
The other poster did not.
I don't understand why the rampage.
Not confusing you with anyone else.
In post no. 8822 you stated this:
"But since Freedom of the Will is inviolable, God's grace goes no further."
This means that our free will cannot be violated.
Correct?
Then, in the same post no. 8822 you stated this:
" God’s grace does not merely awaken the possibility of faith; it accomplishes the entire saving work from beginning to end. "
This means that God does EVERYTHING...HE accomplishes the ENTIRE work from beginning to end.
The two statements would seem to conflict.
If we have free will,,,,,how will God accomplish everything to the end?
What if I do not wish to remain saved?
Do I have free will or not?
You have not explained a 3rd box.
There IS NO 3rd box.
You either believe God does all the work of salvation,,,as you've stated in post no. 8822, which makes you a monergist
or you believe in cooperating with God in walking with Him so as to achieve final salvation...the saving of our sou.
This is known as synergism.
1 Peter 1:8-9
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
IF there is a 3rd option,,,I would be very interested to know it.
Maybe I haven't heard of it.
Maybe I don't really know what being born again means.
Would you care to explain it?
Yes, it's like a terrible breakup or divorce, the grief and trauma caused by the end of a relationship is far greater than never having been in a relationship at all.
If disobedience is NOT permissible....
then it meams obedience IS a equirement for salvation.
Think it over.
Plain English.
I do agree that we must have a change of heart in order to obey.
I might have misspoken....
It sounded like you were saying that we have to get faith FIRST
and then become born again.
No time to go check (you can if you wish).
It's the Holy Spirit that gives us the help to obey.
Roger, i've posted Matthew 7.24 many times.
It supports my understanding of the NT.
My understanding of the NT is that we MUST obey God in order to be saved.
Matthew 7:24-27
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."
Let's go through the entire passage.
Jesus is describing two types of persons:
1 is a wise person.
This wise person 24-25 ACTS on the words of Jesus. IOW,,, he DOES what Jesus teaches. I do believe that Jesus taught obedience to Him. If we love Him we will obey Him. John 14:15
The winds blew but the house stood because it was built on THE ROCK.
We are safe is we ACT on the words of Jesus...if we follow His teachings.
1 is a foolish person.
The foolish person DOES NOT ACT on the words of Jesus. He does NOT DO what Jesus teaches.
If we do not obey the wrath of God remains on us. John 3:36
The wind blew and the house FELL.
The house fell.
It was destroyed.
Matthew 7:26-27 can also work as a stand alone passage.
Matthew 7:24-25 REINFORCES 26-27.
So I'm happy to post it all.
You did not explain why.
You said that we are not required to obey God for salvation.
See just above.
We should be very careful when we speak about salvation of souls.
Some are calvinist and don't know it.
It depends on your belief system...
not your definiton of what type of Christian you are.
This is what I stated:
"I'll just say this:
IF the Holy Spirit is indwelling and dedicated to doing God's will...
then I certainly hope that you give full responsibility to the Holy Spirit when a person sins."
I stated this because YOU said that it's always the Holy Spirit that makes us do God's will or words to that effect.
(sounds like no free will)
So,,,do you understand my statement regarding giving full responsibility to the Holy Spirit?
I think you glossed over it.
It's important and has to do with the free will you claim ot believe.
Please go over it again and give a reply
Everyone sins is not a reply.
Where is that stated in the NT?
Where are we told to do our own studying to come up with our own theology?
NOWHERE.
What we are told is to be united:
John 17:21
21That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
1 Corinthians 1:10
10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Ephesians 4:1-5
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Christianity was not meant to splinter into many divisions.
Intersting.
Then why don't we all believe the same?
We can MAKE scripture say what we want it to say.
The OSAS believers do this all the time.
Yes sir.
I will try to understand context.
I'll give it my all.
In the meantime,,,you might want to reply to my scripture instead of just posting your ideas.
You do not seem to like scriputre...
context or not.
Sorry,,,this popped up when I replied to another member.
Did you ever hear this?:
TIS BETTER TO HAVE LOVED AND LOST
TO NEVER HAVE LOVED AT ALL.
Man is made for LOVE.
We are drawn to it like a moth to a flame.
Being without love is very lonely.
You had one misconception re forfeiture of salvation.
Indeed, there are many passages in scripture that attest to the fact that we can fall away from our salvation.
Those in Hebrews 6.6 most certain did and this cannot be denied.
In that case,,,since they were returning to God but in a different manner of serving Him (through the Law), once they left it would certainly be most difficult to every be able to gather them back into the fold.
If you can show that they did NOT fall away,,,
it would be very interesting indeed..since it's so clearly stated.
So you could attempt to correct my misconception.
I think that's what we're here for.
So to bind and loose means to either get or lose rewards??
I'd go study that some more.
Someone on this very thread knows what it means.
You could check him out too...you might trust him more than a newcomer.
So there's no heaven or hell?
Just stripes?
So we'll either get few stripes or many stripes.
The master was not in charge of sending one to heaven or hell...he could only use "stripes".
God can judge a soul for all eternity.
Jesus taught about heaven and hell.
He is God and He will not be handing out stripes.
Matthew 10:28
28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:46
46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 20:15
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Note that it's Jesus stating the above.
He's not speaking about rewards or stripes.
There are only two choices after death:
heaven
hell
The above is stating that Jesus expects us to bear fruit.
A fruitless life is a life apart from God.
If we do not bear fruit,,,God will cut us off from the vine.
John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
Yes sir.
Even what little he has will be taken away.
Yes sir.
Those that do not have will be cast into the outer darkness where God IS NOT PRESENT.
Thanks for supporting my understanding of scripture with your own verses.
Is there scripture for this?
Did you say hell is beneath the earth?
Do you know where heaven is?
I have a 5 year old that keeps asking where it is.
No. Really.
I had to break down and tell her it's in the North of England.
It used to be heavenly-like...
not so sure it is anymore.
No. This is loss of salvation. Outer darkness is judgment, not loss of reward.
That sure sounds more judgement than mere loss of reward.
Most generally see this as permanent too. Where are you getting that it is only until the Millennial age ends?
🕊
Disobedience is inevitable. We are evil, and we are sinners.
The idea that obedience is mandated doesn't necessarily mean that obedience is a condition of salvation.
Theologians debate what they call the "Ordo Salutis." The question is, "What comes first in salvation?" Going by Ephesians 1:13-14, it would seem that believing the gospel is the initial step in the process of salvation. But Paul is describing what he calls "spiritual blessings God gives to those who are "in Christ" or "in him" to bring about his main purpose: His glory.
Belief in God—or even belief in the message of the gospel by itself—is not what ultimately brings glory to God. Paul’s point is sharper and more surprising: God glorifies Himself when He acts on behalf of those who believe. The glory comes not from the human response but from the divine generosity that follows it. In Ephesians 1, Paul argues that God brings glory to His own name when He grants a community of believers their promised inheritance and seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise. The Spirit is God’s own down payment, the first installment of the future inheritance, and the unmistakable sign that God Himself is the one securing their destiny. In other words, God is glorified not merely because people believe, but because He lavishly blesses those believers with the Spirit, guaranteeing that His saving purpose will reach its intended end.
Therefore, salvation doesn't begin with belief, it begins with being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
At times, perhaps. But that isn’t the primary work of the Holy Spirit. His central role is enlightenment. The Spirit doesn’t make us “gooder,” as if His main task were moral polishing. Instead, He makes us wiser. He opens our eyes to see what we could never perceive on our own. He softens our hearts so that God’s truth is no longer threatening but beautiful. He helps us see reality the way God sees it, and He cultivates in us a genuine love for the truth. In short, the Spirit’s work is not merely to improve our behavior but to transform our perception—so that wisdom, discernment, and love for God’s ways become the natural fruit of a renewed heart.
I noticed that Jesus compared a house built on sand to one built on rock. I also noticed that the house built on a rock never fell down.
In your view, it must be possible for a house built on rock to fall down, right? Doesn't that idea contradict Jesus' point?
What would you like me to explain?
Let me clarify something, because we may be mixing two related but distinct ideas:
(1) obeying God in the general, moral sense, and
(2) obeying Jesus’ words as His disciples.
We certainly ought to do both, which is why it’s easy to blur them together. But in Matthew 7, Jesus isn’t talking about generic moral obedience to God, as if He were giving a lesson in ethics. He’s talking about responding to Him—hearing His teaching, trusting His authority, and shaping one’s life around His words. The issue isn’t moral performance; it’s discipleship. The wise builder is the one who receives Jesus’ teaching as the foundation of life, not merely someone who behaves well.
On the contrary, it makes no sense to call someone a Calvinist if they have never read or studied Calvin. It's like saying a person is a believer and student of Confucius, but has never read Confucius or can't even quote a single one of his sayings. You make an empty claim.
Can't we simply discuss the scriptures and not put each other in a box?
I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are making here.
No, I don't.
Try to pay attention to what I actually say and avoid reading my words through your filters.
As I explained above, Salvation is not a moral issue. God doesn't wait until we become good people in order to save us. He saves us while we are still evil.
This may sound heretical, but all deceased go to the GRAVE, known as Sheol/Hades, often translated as "hell" and confused with the Lake of Fire. Both the saved and the unsaved go there, known as "gathered to your people". The difference is that as the parable of the rich man has illustrated, the saved go to Abraham's side, the unsaved go to the rich man's side.
Doesn't God welcome his lost prodigal son with open arms? The son himself thinks he has lost his sonship, yet the father still accepts him, despite his older brother's objection. His punishment is the loss of his inheritance, which he has squandered. He's not cut off.
That "utter darkness" is not hell. I believe that when Jesus returns and reigns with the saints, the profitable servants, the unprofitable servants will BE ruled by a rod of iron. If they were to remain dead with the unsaved during the millennium, who are Jesus and the saints supposed to rule?
I reviewed post #8822. That was your post, not mine.
Just to be clear, I am unable to find the post so I can't read my own statements in context. I would agree that God accomplishes the Entire work from beginning to end.
The conflict is resolved when we understand the nature of God with respect to what kind of being he is.
As Paul said, our will has nothing to do with our salvation. Romans 9:16
This question has no meaning to me.
Sure, you have freedom of will. But our will has nothing to do with our being saved.
There is a third category. But I’m holding it back for the moment, because it only makes sense once someone is willing to loosen their grip on their current framework. It’s natural to stay inside the theological “box” that has served you well—most of us do—until that box no longer fits the evidence or the questions we’re wrestling with. When a person begins to sense that their existing categories aren’t accounting for all the data, that’s when an alternative can finally be seen for what it is.
Let's talk about the scriptures.
You remind me of Alfredo from La traviata - "Amor è palpito dell´universo intero," - "Love is the heartbeat of the whole universe". Yeah, I can only imagine. It's a funny coincidence that in Princess Charming, a romantic novel I've been reading, the Casavona-esque male lead quoted this line verbatim. We're made for worship, though, for the lost connection with God, I can give you that.
It goes without saying. But you can see it can't you?
Christianity has splintered into many divisions. Certainly. But not the Bible, which remains our true and best source of what Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles taught. Unless you want to claim that the church has the authority to tell you what to believe, or how to act, then I take us back to what Jesus said about obeying his teaching.
And since each person is going to be held responsible for what they believe and how they act, then each person must read and understand the Bible for themselves. Our minister, pastor, or priest can't help us in the final judgment.
If you do not know the answer to such a basic Biblical question, I suggest you not so feely offer your opinion on this subject.
A very good point.
Was the sow really washed or did the sow only "appear" to be washed when it returned to the mire?
No, it cannot be lost. No sin, either by numbers or severity, is greater than the forgiveness that is imparted in/by Christ once given.