Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

Here's the start. The remaining verses up through the end of the chapter are a continuation of that

[Mat 10:1, 5-7 KJV]
1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. ...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What!

You're stating Jesus sending out the 12 to support your view that CONDITIONAL verses are for comforting believers?

No roger.

You must take the verses posted and explain how THEY are not causing a condition but are only comforting believers.


Here is the original post.... no. 8900

click to expand....

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The New Testament writers do not agree with you.


Here's what John, an Apostle taught:

1 John 1:6
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;


1 John 3:10
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


Here's what Paul taught:

Ephesians 4:1
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called



1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
The spirit cannot live with the flesh.



Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God.

Nope, they do not disagree; they confirm.
Those verses were given as edification to the saved, because only the saved, as saved, will be able to truly satisfy them.
An attempt to satisfy those by the unsaved will not bring salvation to them, as only Christ, as Savior, is able to save.

 

[rogerg]

What!

You're stating Jesus sending out the 12 to support your view that CONDITIONAL verses are for comforting believers?

No roger.

You must take the verses YOU posted and explain how THEY are not causing a condition but are only comforting believers.

Comforting? I never said comforting, where did you get that from? I said EDIFICATION - TEACHING.
Again, you didn't read what I posted

 

[rogerg]

There is no such person as a TRUE believer.
One is a believer or he is not.

There is, and no, they're not. Some receive their faith from/through Christ. Not all do. Those who do, have been made into true believers, the others, not. Do you see the "to them" below? The "to them" makes those who receive true faith through Christ, a unique sub-set, otherwise, Peter would have stated "to them that have obtained faith", period.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 

[Qt]

The bigger question is why do you always add claims to my posts that I didn’t make?

When I said having a couple drinks isn’t bad for everyone, I was talking about moderation, not advocating drunkenness.

When I said the Bible is a book and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, I was referring to the physical object, the paper and ink, not dismissing its message.

When I said I use AI as a tool, that is all I meant. I never said AI has the Holy Spirit.

Maybe try to respond to what I actually say in the future and not the conclusions you’re adding to it.

So the Bible is not inspired by God?

And no I am not adding to what you say. It is what you are saying whether you realize it or not.

 

[Toknow]

No. No free will - as least not as salvation is concerned. The unsaved are spiritually dead in sin, and just as a
physically dead person can't make physical choices, neither can a spiritually dead person make spiritual choices.
That is a function of having been given spiritual life and only God can give that - but then spiritual life is salvation.

[Eph 2:1, 4-5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

So you DO wish to discuss reformed theology?
OK

You're stating about that man cannot make choices.
Your verse Eph 2:1-4,5 means nothing unless you can explain better.

You're stating the doctrine of total depravity....
it states that man is so depraved/lost in sin, that he in UNABLE to search for God.

This is not true.
Man can search/seek for God,
and find Him.

There are many verses that confirm this:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

​

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

Acts 17:27​

That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Luke 12:31​

Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

Man is able to seek God​

and find Him.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

So the Bible is not inspired by God?

And no I am not adding to what you say. It is what you are saying whether you realize it or not.

Again.l, responding to something I didn’t say. I said the Bible is a book, ink on paper. Is it not? Did I say anything about it not being inspired by God? Please quote where I said anything like that. And the idea that you realize what I’m saying but I don’t is ignorant.

If I say “the sun is bright”, I feel you would reply with, “ so the sun isn’t hot?”

 

[Toknow]

That's rather an antisemetic view which I abhor.

You're entitled.
What would You say is the reason for the SONS OF THE KINGDOM to be kicked out?
Can a son be kicked out of heaven?

Jesus rose and ascended to heaven. Did anybody else?

I don't know what you mean by this.

Sheol and Hades are the same place, where everyone will be "gathered to their people". Sheol in the OT, Hades in the NT.

This is my understanding of sheoul.


Sheol, abode of the dead in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament). The term can be interpreted to mean either the literal place in which dead people are placed (i.e., in the ground) or the ancient world's concept of the afterlife as a subterranean “land of gloom and deep darkness” (Book of Job 10:21).
It's a jewish term and I can only state what I've learned that it means.


Sheol, abode of the dead in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament). The term can be interpreted to mean either the literal place in which dead people are placed (i.e., in the ground) or the ancient world’s concept of the afterlife as a subterranean “land of gloom and deep darkness” (Book of Job 10:21). Due to this ambiguity, some versions of the Bible translate Sheol as “the grave” or “the pit,” while other editions treat the word as meaning the abode of the dead.

Characteristics​

The writers of the Hebrew Bible mention Sheol 66 times. Taken as references to the Hebrew underworld, these instances make for a vague and at times inconsistent description. According to Psalms 6:5, people in Sheol remember nothing—not even God—and yet in 1 Samuel 28, the spirit of Samuel can capably advise Saul. However, there are characteristics of Sheol on which all the Bible’s authors seem to agree: the place physically exists below the surface of the earth, all humanity is bound for it, and it is dark and joyless.


This simple if grim conceptualization of life after death became more complicated during the Second Temple period (516 bce–70 ce). In addition to the promise of an eventual resurrection, some Hebrew scholars at the time came to believe that Sheol is divided into multiple compartments and that everyone who goes to Sheol will be assigned to a particular section based on moral worthiness. According to the noncanonical Book of Enoch, there are four such chambers: one chamber with a bright spring of water, where the righteous happily await the Day of Judgment; one in which the moderately moral can look forward to their own reward; one in which victims of murder wait for justice to be done; and one to punish the wicked—which prefigured the Jewish idea of Gehenna, a hell in which the wicked are tormented with fire.
source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/sheol

 

[Roger316]

My perspective is working just fine.
Thanks for your help however.


Doesn't matter what you claim Roger.

It matters to me. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to speak for you or put words in your mouth.

Your statements are reformed in nature.

My statements come from the Bible. If my statements align with those of the reformers, it is coincidental.

That makes you a calvinist....whether you like to be called one or not.

My statements are my own.

Romans 9:14 is ALWAYS used by Calvinists.
And you used it.

Again, it's a coincidence. It's Paul's explicit statement about God's choice. That is why I quoted it.

YOU believe God does it all.

I never said that God does it all. Not in the way you mean it. Paul argues that the will of man does not enter into God's choice whom to save BECAUSE God is a creator. In other words, God creates it all.

Which is why I post SCRIPTURE.

You post verses taken out of context.

That's a pretty funny statement.
The interpretations were good....
but what they did with them was bad.

Often, even scholars and theologians don't realize they are carrying a heavy bag of Philosophical "givens" from their culture. And they read their Bible through those lenses. You seem to be stuck in your own philosophical framework.

THE MAN WHO WILLS just means that we will not be saved by our works but by our faith in God.

You are adding to what Paul said.

I cannot spend time on here trying to translate what you say.

Then stop translating what I say. I asked you several times to stop trying to place me into a box.

Monergism is a calvinist idea.

I don't believe in either one. Don't label me with a label that I deny, and then fault me for believing something that I deny. That's not how it works.

It states that God does everything.
YOU post like a monergist.

I didn't say that God does everything.

Andl you're pulling my chain all along.
Don't think I haven't noticed.

You are pulling your own chain. You were the first to mention Calvinism. I never brought it up.

If you don't care to explain THE THIRD WAY,,,,
which does not exist...
fine.
But don't hold it over my head as if I'M the one that is required to DO SOMETHING in order to get YOU
to explain it.

I'm not holding anything over your head. You have accepted a particular philosophical set of assumptions and your choice of verses and your discussion is defending those assumptions. Even if you decide to disagree with me, you will never understand me until you are willing to provisionally suspend your point of view in order to give my view a fair hearing. Until then, why should I bother to present it to you?

I really DO NOT CARE about a third way that is in your mind.

My point exactly.

 

[rogerg]

You're stating the doctrine of total depravity....
it states that man is so depraved/lost in sin, that he in UNABLE to search for God.

dead in sin, and it was taken from scripture.

In Mat 6:33, He is teaching His disciples. Once again, you did not view the verse in its complete context.

Regarding Heb 11:6 - no one, by nature, seeks after God, unless, that is, true faith has first been given to them:

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I'm not going to spend time and effort to go through your interpretation of all of the verses you provided above but
this should suffice for you to be able to get the idea - basically that you don't research sufficiently enough.

This isn't working for either of us, so, at least for this topic, continuing with it would be fruitless. Therefore, I bid you adieu.

 

[mailmandan]

the SONS OF THE KINGDOM means the Jews.
The Jews are the ones to whom the promise was given.
But they did not accept Jesus as Messiah.
This speaks to Romans 9...but it's really a lot to get into.

It would be nice if @studier would comment on Matthew 8:10-12.

In context, Matthew 8:10-12 outlines a key point about the inclusive nature of the kingdom of heaven and the importance of faith over lineage. Jesus states that while many from east and west will be invited to join Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom, many Jews the "sons of the kingdom" will be excluded and cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This emphasizes that it is not just being of Jewish lineage that guarantees entry into the kingdom, but rather faith in Jesus that determines one's place.

In contrast, other passages such as John 1:12, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:13-14 affirm that believers in Christ--whether Jew or Gentile-are the true sons and heirs of God, secured by faith and sealed by the Spirit. The difference lies in context: Matthew 8:12 addresses a Jewish expectation, while the epistles address the spiritual reality for all believers.

 

[Roger316]

This is silly. Put forth your view of the 3rd option which may well be from Crabtree and support it from Scripture.

I assume you believe that God created all things. Or do you? John 1:3

Let me ask another question. Do you believe that God suspends the principle of cause and effect when he performs a miracle? Or Perhaps, In Scripture, miracles are God acting as the First Cause in a way that surpasses ordinary secondary causes, not a moment where causality disappears.

 

[Roger316]

No one can read the NT and come to the conclusion that God CHOOSES some for salvation and some for destruction.

That is what Paul explicitly says. It isn't up for interpretation.

 

[Toknow]

No, we don't.

So we could just stop at justification....

have no transformation in our lives....

we could just keep on living as before.....

and still be saved?

Coudl you post some scripture for this?

Jesus said that if we do not bear fruit,,,
we will be cut off.



John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


It sounds to me that if we are not sanctified...
we will also lose our justification.

 

[Toknow]

And not only that, but it is also stating there is an inheritance accompanying it, which it is for, and only for, those of 1 Pe 1:4 - those for whom it had been reserved.

[1Pe 1:4 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

You'll have to show WHO 1 Peter 1:4 is speaking about.

I have no idea.

I just know that those saved AT THE END OF THEIR LIFE will receive their salvation.

Posting a verse that says that we will receive an inheritance...doesn't say much.
WHO will receive the inheritance?

 

[Toknow]

Comforting? I never said comforting, where did you get that from? I said EDIFICATION - TEACHING.
Again, you didn't read what I posted

I read enough to know that you are MISAPPLYING scripture.

Please show how Jesus,l sending out the 12 APOSTLES, in Matthew 10
is for our EDIFICATION.

Thanks.

Remember we're discussing loss of salvation.
How Matthew 10 has anything to do with it,,,I hope you will explain.

 

[Toknow]

There is, and no, they're not. Some receive their faith from/through Christ. Not all do. Those who do, have been made into true believers, the others, not. Do you see the "to them" below? The "to them" makes those who receive true faith through Christ, a unique sub-set, otherwise, Peter would have stated "to them that have obtained faith", period.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

As far as I can see....
2 Peter 1:1 states HAVE OBTAINED A PRECIOUS FAITH.

I don't see the words TRUE FAITH there.

Maybe you can explain the difference
between a BELIEVER
and a TRUE BELIEVER.

 

[Toknow]

It matters to me. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to speak for you or put words in your mouth.

My statements come from the Bible. If my statements align with those of the reformers, it is coincidental.


My statements are my own.

Again, it's a coincidence. It's Paul's explicit statement about God's choice. That is why I quoted it.

I never said that God does it all. Not in the way you mean it. Paul argues that the will of man does not enter into God's choice whom to save BECAUSE God is a creator. In other words, God creates it all.

You post verses taken out of context.

You don't post any...
so I won't reply.

Just to say that if you think I take verses OUT OF CONTEXT...
don't you think it would be a GOOD IDEA to correct me?

But, alas, you never do.

Often, even scholars and theologians don't realize they are carrying a heavy bag of Philosophical "givens" from their culture. And they read their Bible through those lenses. You seem to be stuck in your own philosophical framework.

YOU....OTOH,,,,have a very open mind, I'm sure.

You are adding to what Paul said.

PLEASE show me where.

I seem to have read somewhere, maybe in Revelation...and in Deuteronomy if memory serves...
that we should NOT add to scripture.

I try to do what the NT tells me to do.
Not that I always succeed.

Then stop translating what I say. I asked you several times to stop trying to place me into a box.

Why don't you CLIMB OUT OF THE BOX?

Looks like you might enjoy being in there.

I don't believe in either one. Don't label me with a label that I deny, and then fault me for believing something that I deny. That's not how it works.

Still waiting on that 3rd option.

Which does't exist.

Pelagius had another option.
But I truly doubt you mean that one.

I didn't say that God does everything.

You are pulling your own chain. You were the first to mention Calvinism. I never brought it up.

I'm not holding anything over your head. You have accepted a particular philosophical set of assumptions and your choice of verses and your discussion is defending those assumptions. Even if you decide to disagree with me, you will never understand me until you are willing to provisionally suspend your point of view in order to give my view a fair hearing. Until then, why should I bother to present it to you?

My point exactly.

Roger, you do not have a point of view that I have never heard.
And I truly doubt you will ever post one.

There's not much to understand here.

Besides the fact that you're not willing to state anything of substance.

You do like to talk however.

 

[Toknow]

That is what Paul explicitly says. It isn't up for interpretation.

No Roger.
That is NOT what Paul says.
As usual....
No scripture.

It's up to YOU to prove Paul taught that God chooses who will be saved.

Not up to me to prove it for you.

Will wait for some scripture.

And please try something a little innovative...
you know NOT Romans and Esau and Jacob.

It's soooo old.

 

[Magenta]

Hey Magenta - great to see you're back - missed your input and Rufus's too (amongst others). Hope you'll be hanging around for a while

Thank you!

 

[FlyingDove]

'Positional' is standard Reformed and Free-Grace fare, not held by all traditions. As Paul continues in 1Cor6 he'll make clear that there is a future to remain aware of and what we do in the body is important and a matter of obedience. The 'positional' doctrine is part of the OSAS doctrine - a concept of legal status that cannot be removed nor walked away from.

In 1Cor1:2 we once again have a perfect tense verb that in itself says they were sanctified in the past and at the time of writing are sanctified, but after this it tells us nothing about remaining sanctified.

Positional sanctification isn't a Reformed invention. It's simply the NT’s past tense sanctification category. Paul uses both the aorist (1 Cor 6:11) & the perfect tense (1 Cor 1:2) to describe a completed identity with ongoing results. That's grammar, not denominational bias.

1 Corinthians doesn't deny positional sanctification; it assumes it. Paul's entire argument is: You are sanctified, now live consistently with that identity.

You're collapsing identity & obedience into one category, but Paul keeps them distinct. The perfect tense in 1 Cor 1:2 explicitly affirms a continuing state, not a temporary one. You're reading your system into the text instead of letting the text define the categories.

SANCTIFICATION - Strong's Greek: 38. ἁγιασμός (hagiasmos) -- Sanctification, holiness, consecration
Lexical Summary hagiasmos: Sanctification, holiness, consecration

HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 38 hagiasmós (a masculine noun derived from 40 /hágios, "holy") – sanctification (the process of advancing in holiness); use of the believer being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness (similarity of nature). See 40 /hagios ("holy").

Topical Lexicon Meaning and Concept
Strong’s Greek 38 (ἁγιασμός) speaks of sanctification—a state of consecration brought about by God that issues in practical holiness of life. It embraces both the decisive setting-apart that occurs at conversion and the ongoing transformation that conforms believers to the image of Christ.


CHRIST EMBODIES & SECURES EVERY STAGE OF SALVATION
Sanctification and Salvation’s Order Romans 6:19 and Romans 6:22 link sanctification to freedom from sin’s dominion.
Justification declares the believer righteous; sanctification makes that righteousness visible in conduct, anticipating glorification. 1 Corinthians 1:30 sets sanctification alongside righteousness and redemption, showing that Christ Himself embodies and secures every stage of salvation.

Summary: Strong’s 38 anchors the New Testament vision of a people set apart by God, progressively transformed by the Spirit, and destined for flawless holiness at Christ’s appearing. Sanctification is God’s will, Christ’s achievement, the Spirit’s work, the believer’s pursuit, the church’s mission, and the believer’s destiny.