Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

The point is, a tested faith will endure to the end, but one does not need to wait until the end to find out.

I do not agree.

see above post.

The reason YOU believe this is because of perseverance of the saints
or, as some call it, OSAS.

OSAS is not biblical and so we cannot know if we'll still be saved on our death bed.

If you care to discuss,,,
you'll have to post some scripture.


For instance
Peter taught that we will receive our salvation at the end of our life:


1 Peter 1:7-9
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Verse 9 The outcome of our faith will be salvation.
Faith is required for salvation....
throughout our entire life.


And we must hold firm till the end:


Colossians 1:20-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

 

[Toknow]

Either you are born again or not. There is no in-between state. We are born again of an imperishable seed

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.…

Your inheritance is being held for you in heaven.
You do not have it yet.
Because the possibility exists that you may NOT endure to the end...as the NT teaches that we must.


Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.



As per the same Peter which you have just quoted.


1 Peter 1:7-9
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Verse 9 The outcome of our faith will be salvation.
Faith is required for salvation....
throughout our entire life.


And we must hold firm till the end:


Colossians 1:20-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

Verse 23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Please advise WHAT IS the imperishable seed?
Is it the word of God,,,as you've stated...
or is it your salvation?


1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
24 For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

If God's word can fail, those who are born again can die spiritually. How that works out in experience varies from person to person. One thing is for sure, God gets us all to the finish line, one way or another.

 

[Toknow]

Do you seriously not understand what God said? I'm unsurprised.

The problem, NightTwister, is that you do what some on these threads do....
You do not pay attention to the topic at hand but just make silly comments.

The reply to what was asked of you cannot be:
"DO YOU SERIOUSLY NOT UJNDERSTAND WHAT GOD SAID? I'M SURPRISED."


Why don't you take the word of God seriously?
Go back and read the question the other member asked and give a REAL reply.

Or
No reply would be better than a silly one.

 

[Journey_man]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

There are many scriptures which declare that those who seem to lose their salvation, were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven... And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

Matthew 13:20-21 "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while..."

John 6:64-66 "But there are some of you who do not believe... And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.' After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Likewise the scriptures support the idea that a saved person can not lose their salvation, because remaining saved is not dependant on the person, but it's God who keeps them saved.

In John 10:27-29 Jesus states that His sheep will never perish and no one can snatch them out of His hand or the Father's hand, ensuring security through divine protection.

In Philippians 1:6 Paul expresses confidence that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".
Romans 8:29-30 This passage describes a chain of salvation where all whom God foreknew and predestined, He also justified and "glorified," leaving no room for a failure in the process.

Ephesians 1:13-14 Believers are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," which serves as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance until the day of redemption.

John 6:37-40 Jesus pledges that "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," indicating a promise to keep believers.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Believers are "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation" that is imperishable and kept in heaven.

Hebrews 7:25 Jesus "is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them".

John 5:24 Those who hear and believe "have eternal life, and do not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

Salvation is a work of God from beginning to end, based on His sovereign election rather than human merit.

 

[Toknow]

There are many scriptures which declare that those who seem to lose their salvation, were never saved to begin with.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven... And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"
Matthew 13:20-21 "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while..."
John 6:64-66 "But there are some of you who do not believe... And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.' After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Likewise the scriptures support the idea that a saved person can not lose their salvation, because remaining saved is not dependant on the person, but it's God who keeps them saved.
In John 10:27-29 Jesus states that His sheep will never perish and no one can snatch them out of His hand or the Father's hand, ensuring security through divine protection.
In Philippians 1:6 Paul expresses confidence that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".
Romans 8:29-30 This passage describes a chain of salvation where all whom God foreknew and predestined, He also justified and "glorified," leaving no room for a failure in the process.
Ephesians 1:13-14 Believers are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," which serves as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance until the day of redemption.
John 6:37-40 Jesus pledges that "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," indicating a promise to keep believers.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Believers are "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation" that is imperishable and kept in heaven.
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus "is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them".
John 5:24 Those who hear and believe "have eternal life, and do not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

Salvation is a work of God from beginning to end, based on His sovereign election rather than human merit.

The OP is no longer here.

And I'd LOVE to see some verses that state we cannot lose our salvation.

The ones above are not valid.

If you pick one or two we could discuss.
But I doubt you will.

 

[Toknow]

There are many scriptures which declare that those who seem to lose their salvation, were never saved to begin with.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven... And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"
Matthew 13:20-21 "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while..."
John 6:64-66 "But there are some of you who do not believe... And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.' After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Likewise the scriptures support the idea that a saved person can not lose their salvation, because remaining saved is not dependant on the person, but it's God who keeps them saved.
In John 10:27-29 Jesus states that His sheep will never perish and no one can snatch them out of His hand or the Father's hand, ensuring security through divine protection.
In Philippians 1:6 Paul expresses confidence that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".
Romans 8:29-30 This passage describes a chain of salvation where all whom God foreknew and predestined, He also justified and "glorified," leaving no room for a failure in the process.
Ephesians 1:13-14 Believers are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," which serves as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance until the day of redemption.
John 6:37-40 Jesus pledges that "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," indicating a promise to keep believers.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Believers are "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation" that is imperishable and kept in heaven.
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus "is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them".
John 5:24 Those who hear and believe "have eternal life, and do not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

Salvation is a work of God from beginning to end, based on His sovereign election rather than human merit.

Your misunderstanding of scripture is most severe.

 

[Journey_man]

The OP is no longer here.

And I'd LOVE to see some verses that state we cannot lose our salvation.

The ones above are not valid.

If you pick one or two we could discuss.
But I doubt you will.

Can I ask why dismissed the verses I cited as invalid. It's one thing to sweep them aside, but it's another to do it without a reason.

 

[Journey_man]

Your misunderstanding of scripture is most severe.

Again, are you able to support your accusation, with any scriptures or are you merely expressing your private view and opinions which are only based on your feelings or emotions.

 

[studier]

In the mean while

Loss of salvation???​

I know RBT teaching when I see it and the first time I read one of your posts I saw him in you. And I know his Angelic Conflict doctrine when I read it, and it is different than Barnhouse.

I also know his and others' teaching re: connecting divine discipline of God's sons to the sin unto death. I asked you a few questions about 1John5 some posts ago and you breezed right past them, just like you breezed right past discussions after you thought your question about the Eph2:8 verb tense would settle eternal security for us.

Now you're going to ignore questions about a very simple question I asked you about 1Cor3:11-15 in response to your posting it as theoretically proving loss of rewards instead of loss of salvation.

You're no more self-taught than I was a few decades ago, before I learned to read and analyze Scripture for myself. I'm still learning as is anyone who is still actually dealing with our Text. So, if you're going to proof-text me, let's get into the Scripture instead of pasting it like it's argument over.

If you're not able to discuss Scriptures you post, then why post them? There are some students of the Text here well able to discuss them to some depth. What else are we here for? Let's learn something.

 

[NightTwister]

The question is not "why", the question is "how".

Are you really reading the question?

Seriously, be honest.

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. -- Romans 8:16-17 ESV

 

[Toknow]

Can I ask why dismissed the verses I cited as invalid. It's one thing to sweep them aside, but it's another to do it without a reason.

Here's why Journey man:

Because they do not mean what you THINK they mean.

However, replying to all of them means I'd have to sit here for quite a long time.

I DID request that you choose one or two and post them and we'll discuss.

Do you not care to do this?

 

[Toknow]

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. -- Romans 8:16-17 ESV

Sure.

But HOW did you get to be a child of God?

 

[Toknow]

Again, are you able to support your accusation, with any scriptures or are you merely expressing your private view and opinions which are only based on your feelings or emotions.

Everything I state I back up with scripture.

Makind a statement,,,which is mostly what those on here do...
is just OPINION.

The only emotion I have is frustration at dealing with some that make silly comments instead of
addressing what the NT teaches and the topic at hand.

So,, pick 1 or 2 verses on your long list and we'll go through them.

thanks.

I'm even letting YOU pick them.

 

[Toknow]

Because God says so.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." -- 1 John 5:13 ESV

See.
"because God says so".

No reply to the other member's question.

 

[TrustandObey]

Do you seriously not understand what God said? I'm unsurprised.

Stop with the pretense and just answer the question.

I suspect your answer would be feelings.

 

[mailmandan]

Either you are born again or not. There is no in-between state. We are born again of an imperishable seed

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.…

Verse 23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

If God's word can fail, those who are born again can die spiritually. How that works out in experience varies from person to person. One thing is for sure, God gets us all to the finish line, one way or another.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Philippians 1:6 -being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

 

[Roger316]

THIS is what you stated in post no. 9214

"Peter, Paul, and James answer that question. God tests our faith and if we endure, then we know it won't ever fail."

You said IF WE ENDURE it won't ever fail.

HOW could you know that?

EVER is a long time.

You could be tested today and you might pass the test.

How do you know you'll pass the test 5 years from now?

YOU DO NOT.

Perhaps I was confusing to you. Let me try again. When the apostles talk about the “testing” of faith (James 1, 1 Peter 1, Romans 5), they’re not imagining a pop quiz or a cosmic obstacle course. They’re drawing on a very concrete, very ancient world of materials testing—the kind of testing that reveals what something really is by exposing it to stress.

Peter uses Metallurgy as a metaphor for the test, refining gold and silver. The heat reveals the impurities; what survives the fire is the real metal. What burns away was never part of the metal's true nature. Peter explicitly uses this: “Your faith—more precious than gold tested by fire…”

• A pot looks finished when it’s shaped and dried.
• But only the kiln reveals whether it’s strong or brittle.
• A pot that cracks in the kiln was never sound to begin with.

Early Christians used this metaphor constantly. A pot that survives the fire is proven—not improved, not made more real, but shown to be what it truly was.

Just as a test of a pot is a destructive test that proves the pot is strong, a test of faith is a destructive test that proves a person's faith is durable.

You understand? The “testing of faith” in Scripture functions like a destructive test in engineering: a test so severe that it pushes the material (or the faith) to its absolute limit. And once that limit is reached, the outcome is definitive. Either it fails then, or it will not fail at all.

A test of faith is not a gentle diagnostic. It’s a destructive test — the kind engineers use when they push a material to its breaking point to see whether it will hold or fail. The apostles describe trials this way: pressures so intense that they drive faith to its limit. If a person is going to fall away, that moment of testing is where it happens. And if their faith does not collapse under that kind of strain, then it has been proven — not just temporarily strong, but enduring. A faith that survives the breaking point will not fail later.

 

[Toknow]

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Philippians 1:6 -being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Your verses sure do conflict with the ones that state that salvation could be lost.

Even JESUS stated that it could.

I wonder if there's a solution to all this conflict?



Here is what JESUS taught:


Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

1. They HEAR (in Greek to hear means to understand and even to accept) and receive the word with joy.
THEY RECEIVE THE WORD.
They have accepted God.
They are born again.

2. BUT
they believe only FOR A WHILE.
THEY BELIEVE....they are born again.

BUT ONLY FOR A WHILE.

3. Then, Jesus said, due to temptation
THEY FALL AWAY.


Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


1. The prodigal son has come to life AGAIN.
This means he was
saved
lost
saved again.

2. AGAIN means the son was somewhere,,,
then left...
then was somewhere AGAIN...
he went back to being saved.




John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; d

1. Notice that the branch is IN JESUS.
It is a saved person.
The saved person does not bear fruit.
He (God) takes away the branch.



Jesus taught that it is possible to lose our salvation.

 

[Toknow]

Perhaps I was confusing to you. Let me try again. When the apostles talk about the “testing” of faith (James 1, 1 Peter 1, Romans 5), they’re not imagining a pop quiz or a cosmic obstacle course. They’re drawing on a very concrete, very ancient world of materials testing—the kind of testing that reveals what something really is by exposing it to stress.

Peter uses Metallurgy as a metaphor for the test, refining gold and silver. The heat reveals the impurities; what survives the fire is the real metal. What burns away was never part of the metal's true nature. Peter explicitly uses this: “Your faith—more precious than gold tested by fire…”

• A pot looks finished when it’s shaped and dried.
• But only the kiln reveals whether it’s strong or brittle.
• A pot that cracks in the kiln was never sound to begin with.

Early Christians used this metaphor constantly. A pot that survives the fire is proven—not improved, not made more real, but shown to be what it truly was.

Just as a test of a pot is a destructive test that proves the pot is strong, a test of faith is a destructive test that proves a person's faith is durable.

You understand? The “testing of faith” in Scripture functions like a destructive test in engineering: a test so severe that it pushes the material (or the faith) to its absolute limit. And once that limit is reached, the outcome is definitive. Either it fails then, or it will not fail at all.

A test of faith is not a gentle diagnostic. It’s a destructive test — the kind engineers use when they push a material to its breaking point to see whether it will hold or fail. The apostles describe trials this way: pressures so intense that they drive faith to its limit. If a person is going to fall away, that moment of testing is where it happens. And if their faith does not collapse under that kind of strain, then it has been proven — not just temporarily strong, but enduring. A faith that survives the breaking point will not fail later.

Maybe YOU were discussing testing.

I was discussing enduring to the end and loss of salvation.

And
1 Cor 3.:4......

is referring to the work of Paul and Apollo.
Their missionary work.
The work that requires laying the correct foundation...
for them and those that will come after them.

And the CC uses this passage for support for the dotrine of purgatory.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Toknow]

Perhaps I was confusing to you. Let me try again. When the apostles talk about the “testing” of faith (James 1, 1 Peter 1, Romans 5), they’re not imagining a pop quiz or a cosmic obstacle course. They’re drawing on a very concrete, very ancient world of materials testing—the kind of testing that reveals what something really is by exposing it to stress.

Peter uses Metallurgy as a metaphor for the test, refining gold and silver. The heat reveals the impurities; what survives the fire is the real metal. What burns away was never part of the metal's true nature. Peter explicitly uses this: “Your faith—more precious than gold tested by fire…”

• A pot looks finished when it’s shaped and dried.
• But only the kiln reveals whether it’s strong or brittle.
• A pot that cracks in the kiln was never sound to begin with.

Early Christians used this metaphor constantly. A pot that survives the fire is proven—not improved, not made more real, but shown to be what it truly was.

Just as a test of a pot is a destructive test that proves the pot is strong, a test of faith is a destructive test that proves a person's faith is durable.

You understand? The “testing of faith” in Scripture functions like a destructive test in engineering: a test so severe that it pushes the material (or the faith) to its absolute limit. And once that limit is reached, the outcome is definitive. Either it fails then, or it will not fail at all.

A test of faith is not a gentle diagnostic. It’s a destructive test — the kind engineers use when they push a material to its breaking point to see whether it will hold or fail. The apostles describe trials this way: pressures so intense that they drive faith to its limit. If a person is going to fall away, that moment of testing is where it happens. And if their faith does not collapse under that kind of strain, then it has been proven — not just temporarily strong, but enduring. A faith that survives the breaking point will not fail later.

And you really need to stop being condescending.
YOU do not confuse ME.

You are not capable of confusing me.
It's just that I DO NOT AGREE with you.