Loss of salvation???

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You see OSAS in this verse where exactly - where does it say someone cannot walk away or that justification is forever?
If you don't mind, you raise some interesting thoughts and questions and I would like to respond to them myself.

Romans 8:33
Admittedly, the verse by itself doesn't necessitate endurance or permanence. But it resides in a context where that is the overall concept. Think of it this way: all of reality is like a house: physical things are on the bottom floor, whereas spiritual things are on the top floor. Humans, animals, planets, stars, trees, mountains, chemistry, physics, and history are all on the bottom floor. Angels, demons, Satan, and heaven are on the top floor. The entire house represents everything that is real. But nothing in the house, whether it is on the top floor or the bottom floor, is permanent. Everything is transitory.

God exists outside the house to the extent that he is self-existent and cannot "go out of existence." Paul argues that if God, who exists outside of time, space, and circumstances, justifies someone, then nothing in all of our reality can thwart his effort or will. Nothing in this reality can defeat God's will for us. This would include our will since we exist inside this reality. But Let's put that aside for now and assume that my will can still dictate my fate.

Paul argues for permanence and endurance earlier in the chapter. For the sake of his argument, Paul narrows the focus to "those who are in Christ Jesus." When Paul makes assertions about those “in Christ” in Romans 8, he is indeed speaking in a way that is categorically true, but with a very specific meaning of “categorical.” When Paul says stuff like:
  • “There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus”
  • “The Spirit of God dwells in you”
  • “You are sons and heirs”
  • “Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus”
he is not describing:
  • how believers feel,
  • how they perform,
  • or how they perceive themselves.
He is describing what is true by virtue of belonging to the category “in Christ.” This is a status truth, not a situational truth. That being the case, Paul has placed us in a good position to understand what Paul says in Romans 8:10-11. It is categorically true that the Spirit will give life to the mortal bodies of all those who are "in Christ,"

Same question.

Romans 8:28-30
Here, Paul draws a straight, unbroken line between being foreknown and glorified, affirming his belief that all those "in Christ", without exception, will experience eternal life in the coming age.

The term "foreknown" has the same meaning as "to know" in the covenant sense. Those who were in covenant with Christ will not fail to be glorified.

. . . predestination?
God preordains who will be saved and who will be judged.

Will you also explain how and why we're now glorified in light of verses like Rom8:17 and in light of Rom8:28 that puts this into the context of God's prothesis - God's advance plan / divine purpose?
You said it yourself. We are saved according to God's advance plan / divine purpose.

Some are critical of Calvinism, accusing it of being fatalistic. That is the weakness of Calvinism and a fair critique. Fatalism says that our fate is not determined by our free will choices and so it doesn't matter what we do. In the end it is always the same.

The missing piece of the foreordination picture is the idea that God not only foreordains people he foreordains their personal stories. When people talk about foreordination, they usually imagine God determining who will be saved. But Scripture’s vision is far richer and more personal. God does not merely foreordain destinations; He foreordains narratives. In other words: God does not simply foreordain that you will be His. He foreordains how you will become His.
This is the difference between a bare decree and a crafted life.

Fatalism says:
“The end is fixed, and nothing you do matters.”

Biblical predestination says something entirely different:
?The end is fixed because God is writing a story in which your actions, choices, prayers, and faith genuinely matter.”

Fatalism erases agency. Predestination establishes agency by giving it a place in a divinely crafted narrative.

This is the crucial distinction.
 
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If you have the time, you might explain why "own things" makes better sense of the text than "own people." Given the larger context of John's gospel, which has many inclusive statements to bring the Gentiles under Christ, it seems reasonable that John was comparing Jesus' people to others.
John is full of double entendre.

In just previous context is the kosmos made through Him.

The neuter can be inclusive of such things and it can also be inclusive of His people/nation and then John goes into individual men. His mission was first to Israel.

I understand. The aorist would be paraphrased, "whenever they were born, they were born . . . of God"
Again, I wouldn't go backward with the aorist because I see the exousia to become as looking forward - assuming they are to become God's children...they are born from God.

I suppose we could also experiment with some sense of past - IOW:
  • Men receive Jesus - believe into Jesus > Jesus gives them exousia > God births them > becoming God's sons is something related to their cooperative relationship and growth with Him but I'd expect 'huios' instead of 'teknon' so I'd have to dig in again and haven't dealt with this for some time.
Same question. Who is doing the giving, Jesus or God?
Jesus gives the exousia.
Okay, But I can't wrap my mind around the idea that I am given the freedom to birth myself? Did I misunderstand?
It's an odd one, which is why I brought it up.

We obviously don't birth ourself so no need to take it to absurdity.

I think the wrestling is in the above order of things, which BTW I don't see taking us into some Reformed birth before believe concepts.
 
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John is full of double entendre.

In just previous context is the kosmos made through Him.

The neuter can be inclusive of such things and it can also be inclusive of His people/nation and then John goes into individual men. His mission was first to Israel.


Again, I wouldn't go backward with the aorist because I see the exousia to become as looking forward - assuming they are to become God's children...they are born from God.

I suppose we could also experiment with some sense of past - IOW:
  • Men receive Jesus - believe into Jesus > Jesus gives them exousia > God births them > becoming God's sons is something related to their cooperative relationship and growth with Him but I'd expect 'huios' instead of 'teknon' so I'd have to dig in again and haven't dealt with this for some time.

Jesus gives the exousia.

It's an odd one, which is why I brought it up.

We obviously don't birth ourself so no need to take it to absurdity.

I think the wrestling is in the above order of things, which BTW I don't see taking us into some Reformed birth before believe concepts.
Yeah, but I am very satisfied with the conversation. Not that we need to agree all the time, but we respect each other. Thanks for that. :)
 
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Do you realize one can play games with exegesis when others have not developed the needed skill to check you?
I suppose you're correct - someone could.

I've invited your discussion and have provided quotes from Wallace who was a major part of resolving the Greek issues at Dallas. I've also offered to provide more references if I can find them on line. I also offered to send you a book, which would have been Wallace's that I could assist you through so you could learn and see what mistakes were made in your being taught from the grammatical level.

Having seen in your next statement some nonsense about shame, I see no reason to go through the rest of your post.
 
Who's using only grammar?

Sounds like someone who's concerned the microscope shows the problems in the their big picture. There is no big picture apart from the details that it consists of.
Would you agree with this?

The perfect tense may not mean “guaranteed forever”

However, it has also never meant “temporary unless maintained” either.

Greek grammar simply does not settle that question

That conclusion must come from context and theology, not tense alone.
 
I suppose you're correct - someone could.

I've invited your discussion and have provided quotes from Wallace who was a major part of resolving the Greek issues at Dallas. I've also offered to provide more references if I can find them on line. I also offered to send you a book, which would have been Wallace's that I could assist you through so you could learn and see what mistakes were made in your being taught from the grammatical level.

Having seen in your next statement some nonsense about shame, I see no reason to go through the rest of your post.
It did not begin with just Dallas.
 
Would you agree with this?

The perfect tense may not mean “guaranteed forever”

However, it has also never meant “temporary unless maintained” either.

Greek grammar simply does not settle that question

That conclusion must come from context and theology, not tense alone.

That conclusion also had come from a desired outcome.

Need wonder why?
Just look at whom he has teamed up with.
 
Would you agree with this?

The perfect tense may not mean “guaranteed forever”

However, it has also never meant “temporary unless maintained” either.

Greek grammar simply does not settle that question

That conclusion must come from context and theology, not tense alone.
The perfect tense:
  • may does not mean “guaranteed forever”
  • does not say temporary
I know of nothing that proves Greek verb tenses in themselves settle eternal security. see here & here.

The issue of security is debated through defining words, context and other textual issues.

I wouldn't agree with theology because differing theology and security vs. loss go hand in hand.
 
It did not begin with just Dallas.
I covered this to sufficient degree. As best I can tell to the degree I investigated it looks like it began in that late 19th century and Dallas was not the only one affected.
 
Matthew 24:9-13

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations
for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one
another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness
will abound, the love of many will grow cold
. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Who was Jesus speaking to?

To the Church?

Or, to Jews?

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
 
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Matthew 24:9-13

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations
for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one
another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness
will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Who was Jesus speaking to?

To the Church?

Or, to Jews?

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
Why don't you take us through this and explain it to us.

During the process, if you would, please show us how this statement by our Lord is or is not also a general principle about our Father's overall salvation plan and the Faith authored and perfected by our Lord and handed down to His holy ones.
 
All that the Father gives me will come to me,
and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37​

Each believer is a GIFT from the Father to the Son!


"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world.
Yours they were, and you gave them to me". John 17:6​

And... Where does that leave us?


For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (irrevocable) Romans 11:29​


We are an irrevocable gift from the Father to the Son!

Grace and peace!
 
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Why don't you take us through this and explain it to us.

During the process, if you would, please show us how this statement by our Lord is or is not also a general principle about our Father's overall salvation plan and the Faith authored and perfected by our Lord and handed down to His holy ones.

Matthew 24:9-13

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations
for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one
another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness
will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

That does not describe the day and age that we are living in.
It was one of mass chaos and violent betrayal going on.

Keep in mind. Those words spoken? Jesus was speaking to Jews.
The Church age had not yet begun!
For Jews will be reading the Bible when the Tribulation hits the world.

What Jesus said was also meant for future Jews, and was intended for Jews who will be alive during the Great Tribulation!

Those who endure to the end? End of the Tribulation? Will be DELIVERED!
They will enter alive into the Millennium with Jesus sitting on His Throne... in Jerusalem!

Those believers will be the ones who will need to endure for seven years of horrible Tribulation on earth!
 
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That's not what the passage states.

What's not? That Christ isn't the Savior of demons? Christ became a man because it was His purpose to be the Savior of men
not demons. Do you see in 1 Co 12:3 it specifically says, " man".
Guess I'm not following your point.

[1Co 12:3 KJV] 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[Phl 2:7-8 KJV]
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

[Gal 4:4-5 KJV]
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
 
Matthew 24:9-13

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations
for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one
another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness
will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Who was Jesus speaking to?

To the Church?

Or, to Jews?

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
Those in the body of Christ; saints/ Christians. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, we are all one in Him.
 
Those in the body of Christ; saints/ Christians. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, we are all one in Him.


Not all who believed throughout time are Christians.
Adam and Eve were not Christians. Isaiah was not. Moses was not... etc.

Before Pentecost took place?
Jews were Jews and the term, 'in Christ,' did not yet exist.

That is why, Jesus disciples were all said to be Jewish.
Jesus was called a 'rabbi' and taught his Jewish disciples.

Google search it: Jesus was called a 'rabbi' and taught Jewish disciples.

At Pentecost was when the new creation in Christ first appeared.
The Church that day came into being.
At the Rapture the church will have been removed from the earth.

Then....

Jews left on earth, who will then believe?
Will once again be called Jews.
The Church will raptured and will be in heaven
 
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I know of nothing that proves Greek verb tenses in themselves settle eternal security. see here & here.
There is nothing in the Greek verb tenses that even remotely convey loss/forfeit salvation.

Never perish is never perish.

Eternal life is eternal life.

Born of imperishable seed is imperishable seed.

Having a forever advocate is a forever advocate.

No condemnation is no condemnation.

Being Crucified with Christ is as sure as His life, death and resurrection.