Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

I don't see your point because I didn't argue from a set of propositions. I simply asserted an idea without proof, inviting others to examine the evidence themselves.

If all you mean is that you disagree with my assertion, then I accept that. My beliefs don't require you to believe me.

Your charge against me, that I change the meaning of NT words, is inaccurate. Rather, in order to disabuse someone of a bad interpretation, I spend the time to share what the author meant by his words.

Regarding your observation about Paul's exhortation to do good works, we must be careful that we don't conclude more than what he intended. When Paul says, "we are created unto good works", what does he expect us to conclude from that?

Someone might say, "Paul wants us to do good works and therefore 'X' where 'X' is purported to be a valid inference from Paul's statement. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

If we think deeper about the salvation experience and the markers associated with salvation, one can rightfully conclude that good works are NOT necessarily an indicator of the inner man (as Paul calls it). Maybe they are; maybe they're not.

God judges the heart, and so good works are salvific, if and only if they are expressions of the proper inwardness. If a man is doing good works as the means to seek glory from other men, his works are not markers of the proper inwardness. They are good for their own sake, but they mean nothing with regard to salvation. But if a man's good works are the outward expressions of a righteous intent, then they are markers of a good heart. Romans 2:9-10

This is a copy and paste from my post no. 10,745.

Let's let God do the heart judging.
Let's just DO what Jesus and Paul taught....


It is your opinion, if I've understood, that one could do good works but for the wrong reason.
Is there scripture about this?

I just try to do my best as every Christian does.
I don't stop to think about the REASON I'm doing something nice before I do it to make sure
I'm doing it for the right reason.

The whole idea is a bit, let's say, confusing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post 10,745


what IS important is what JESUS taught.

And HE taught that good works are necessary.
You must have skipped over Matthew 5 and 7 and 25.

Paul taught the same.....he actually taught what Jesus taught.
Amazing.

What is sad is that those such as yourself do not want to know THE TRUTH....
but only what is comforting to them.

Jesus said that before you decide to follow Him...you better count the cost.

Looks like the cost is just too high for some folk that think they are following Him.

Perhaps you could post some scripture which states that good works are not necessary?
Doubt you'll find any because it doesn't exist.


In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.


Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.


Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.


They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.


He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


Let all that you do be done in love.


For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Still don't believe that we're to do good works?

Plenty more where the above came from.
It's called the NT.
It teaches what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works.

 

[mailmandan]

Its sad that people think what they do could earn them the right to stand in front of God forgiven.. All we can do is pray God works through them as he will the jews..

Now wait for the carpet-bombing.

 

[kinda]

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Now wait for the carpet-bombing.

I am not worried about it. The pharisees crucified christ because he told them their works are not enough.. these people are no different

 

[Mem]

Now wait for the carpet-bombing.

They might as well get in line to gain 70 virgins as long as they preaching focus on their self.
There is nothing of the self, no way, no how, in the good works that we are created for.

There're delusions of grandeur involved if anyone thinks anyone is looking at them and saying, "oh look, isn't that glorious how he is keeping the sabbath? And isn't it so wonderful how he never murders anyone?"

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I am not worried about it. The pharisees crucified christ because he told them their works are not enough.. these people are no different

Thats not actually in our Bibles.

The Pharasees said Jesus sinned because He didn't keep their man-made sabbath and because He claimed to be equal to God. Jesus never broke the Sabbath in the 4th commandment and He is God. So both accusations were false John 8:46-47 Heb4:14 1 Peter 2:21-22

Sadly, this same pattern is happening again- man has made their own man-sabbath changing the day of God's Sabbath Exo20:10 Dan7:25 and making man-made laws around them called blue laws.

 

[JayWalker]

Now wait for the carpet-bombing.

Sometimes the carpet has been naughty. That video looks like fake AI generated stuff

It's funny to hear people claim God has not ORDAINED Christians to walk in good works when His Word specifically says we are:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then they continually advocating for walking after the flesh in sin and claim those doing such are still in right standing with the Lord even as they walk in rebellion against Him.

 

[Mem]

Then they continually advocating for walking after the flesh in sin and claim those doing such are still in right standing with the Lord even as they walk in rebellion against Him.

Fancy story. Tell us again the story about those claiming that they're perfect in following the law, without the use of any loopholes.

 

[JayWalker]

Fancy story. Tell us again the story about those claiming that they're perfect in following the law, without the use of any loopholes.

You do error not knowing the scriptures or God's definition of perfection under the New Covenant.

This error is quite common among those following the false doctrines of reformed theology that falsely teach that God put sin in every little baby when they were being created in the womb which they use as an excuse to hold on to their precious sin as they misunderstand the Gospel having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof not knowing how to abide IN Christ or how to submit to the Holy Spirit based on God's Word.

Here's a few scriptures that befuddle these people:

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying
again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

*We should grow beyond the foundational teachings of the Gospel and grow in to a mature
Christian who does not walk after dead works and instead walks after the New Man which is
created in righteousness and true holiness (see Ephesians 4:22-24, Romans 13:14, Colossians 3:10)

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man
perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 3:10
Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Those who cannot cease from living in sin are "cursed children" (2 Peter 2:14)

2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

 

[Mem]

You do error not knowing the scriptures or God's definition of perfection under the New Covenant.

This error is quite common among those following the false doctrines of reformed theology that falsely teach that God put sin in every little baby when they were being created in the womb which they use as an excuse to hold on to their precious sin as they misunderstand the Gospel having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof not knowing how to abide IN Christ or how to submit to the Holy Spirit based on God's Word.

Here's a few scriptures that befuddle these people:

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying
again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

*We should grow beyond the foundational teachings of the Gospel and grow in to a mature
Christian who does not walk after dead works and instead walks after the New Man which is
created in righteousness and true holiness (see Ephesians 4:22-24, Romans 13:14, Colossians 3:10)

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man
perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 3:10
Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Those who cannot cease from living in sin are "cursed children" (2 Peter 2:14)

2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

That's talking about you. It's all about you.

 

[Roger316]

I see so you're claiming one can live in sin, living after the flesh - and they are still in right standing with the Lord?

Obviously not. I said nothing like that. All I said was that your second premise is false. It is not true that "walking after bad works causes one to be unsaved." Why? Because those who are saved would never walk after bad works. It is not true by definition.

If someone is walking after bad works, they are not saved and they never were saved.

Did you not know that grace does not cover us when we are living in sin?

Sure, everyone knows that. What's your point?

 

[Mem]

Sure, everyone knows that. What's your point?

He's living with a girlfriend and has a thread arguing that they're married in God's eyes. Yet, if he were to die, then she's on her own. She can't assume his name and therefore his social security standing, so he isn't really giving (all of) his life for her then, is he? I mean, it's only the dangling parts that count, right?

 

[Mem]

I mean, how can anyone preach works, but then...?

 

[Roger316]

This is a copy and paste from my post no. 10,745.

Let's let God do the heart judging.
Let's just DO what Jesus and Paul taught....

It is your opinion, if I've understood, that one could do good works but for the wrong reason.
Is there scripture about this?

Absolutely — the Bible is surprisingly candid about people doing the right things for the wrong reasons. A few passages stand out as almost tailor‑made for this theme.

A classic example is Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

This is one of the clearest cases. Ananias and Sapphira appeared to be doing a generous, charitable act — donating proceeds from a land sale — but their motive was self‑glorification and deception. Luke writes that they “kept back part of the money for themselves” while pretending to give the full amount. Their sin wasn’t stinginess; it was hypocrisy.

 

[JayWalker]

That's talking about you. It's all about you.

You were aware that I'm not the one who wrote the Bible right?

All I said was that your second premise is false.

Which is where you went off in to the ditch

It is not true that "walking after bad works causes one to be unsaved

OK so you do actually claim one can live in sin and still be in right standing with the Lord.

You can't have it both ways and ride the fence here

Because those who are saved would never walk after bad works.

But you claim we're all sinners right?


OK so you do actually claim one can live in sin and still be in right standing with the Lord.

You can't have it both ways and ride the fence here

He's living with a girlfriend

It's WIFE not girlfriend

I mean, how can anyone preach works, but then...?

Are you claiming when one submits their lives to the Lord and are being led by the Holy Spirit the result is not good works?

 

[Mem]

You were aware that I'm not the one who wrote the Bible right?

This is probably why you don't understand it so well. You're reading it as if you wrote it.

 

[Mem]

It's WIFE not girlfriend

If the law doesn't recognize her as your wife, then she'll be left without her husband's estate when you die.

 

[Mem]

Are you claiming when one submits their lives to thew Lord and are being led by the Holy Spirit the result is not good works?

See my first comment about who wrote what.

 

[legion]

When has that ever happened? I think it's a fiction. And the Bible is written as though that does not happen. And again, that passage tells us the true don't leave. That those who do were not true to begin with. So there is no place for the true to leave. They don't. Don't you suppose that agrees with their desire? Who that has known the love of God would ever walk away from it? We don't.

Even so . . . free will is not the ability to change your nature, and nowhere did God say He would ever unregenerate you, return you to a flesh being.

Much love!

It is completly possible. God himself makes this known in Exodus 32:33 quotes God saying, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book

I agree it may be 1 in a million, however the bible has no impiracle statement. As I have mentioned before, this question of OSAS still exists because there is no solid answer. I will also note that it would be unlikely.

I believe things like this are left to us as a matter of faith, and to cause us to look deeper into the Bible.

While many of you alls comments are strong in support of OSAS, there is only inferences. I am not defending the issue, I am pointing out, it is not in stone.

Why would Paul reference this subject as a race... in a race you can loose. So we are asked to run it to win...

Peace.

 

[legion]

If the person was never saved to begin with....
and they walk away....
how do you know that YOU are saved?

Proponents of THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH don't seem to realize that they are actually
removing all security from salvation.

Give it some thought...

My commentary is about a person who THINKS they are saved... it's about a truly saved individual.