Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

You knotted mind brought it up. I don't have to submit to any of your demands.

BTW,,,
How is this a DEMAND??:


i said:
"So now it would be up to YOU to proclaim that Jesus is God."


That is not a demand.
You need to brush up on your English.

 

[Mem]

I have no demands of you mem.
You're just some member on a forum...
why would I demand anything from you?


Here's post 10,931:



Jesus gets sole billing as Lord. There's no sitting on any throne without Him.



See:

I said JESUS IS GOD

YOU said JESUS IS Lord.


YOU changed what I stated.

Then the final statement from YOU is that MY mind is knotted??

You like to argue instead of discuss.

You're a waste to God and man.

You made it about you. It's all about you saying, "You changed what I stated." You can't see past your nose that it's not all about you.

 

[GWH]

OK
I read it.
The above sounds slightly like modulism....
but it might just be the wording.

I think we can agree.
How's this:
The three are the same in nature....
but different in Person.

All 3 are God and have always existed...
but have different functions, as you've correctly posted.
But even though they have different function...they work in conjunction with each othe
which is why we can say that the Holy Spirit dwells in us....
and also Jesus dwells in us
Galatians 2:20

My explanation differs from modalism by saying that the one God relates to believers three ways or as three Persons simultaneously,
I find the insight regarding the three prepositions that indicate these ways to be quite biblical and helpful for discerning the differences not very well distinguished by the conjunction "and", as in "God the Father and the Son and the HS", although they do indeed work in conjunction with each other.

I am comfortable with this Scriptural understanding/harmonization and recommend using it when wanting to explain the divine Triunity to those who think the Trinity is a troublesome doctrine.

 

[Roger316]

Please post my quote stating that a house built on the teachings of JESUS will not survive.

Please explain what you THINK my view is and HOW it requires a 3rd option.

Here are the 2 options:
1. We ACT on the words of Jesus and are safe from the storm.
2. We DO NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and are not safe from the storm.

ACTING means DOING.
DOING what we HEAR Jesus teaching.
No 3rd option necessary.
No loopholes.

Think of it this way. The house is fully built before the storm. His parable says nothing about:

• a man who abandons the project
• a man who partially builds
• a man who builds well and then tears it down
• a man who switches foundations halfway

He gives only two completed houses. He doesn't give a half-built house scenario. Instead, He uses

• two completed houses
• two hidden foundations
• one final test

The entire force of the parable is: You cannot tell the difference between the saved and the unsaved by looking at the house. Only the foundation matters, and the storm reveals it.

So what does this say about loss of salvation? It implies the opposite.

The parable assumes:

• A true foundation endures the storm
• A false foundation collapses
• No switching foundations mid‑construction
• No losing what was truly built on rock

The wise man’s house never collapses. The foolish man’s house was never secure.

This aligns with the broader biblical pattern:

• True faith endures
• False faith is exposed
• The final judgment reveals what was always true

The parable is about final vindication, not mid‑life apostasy.





In the context of Matthew, the storm is divine judgment—the ultimate testing of a life. Jesus is closing His sermon with an eschatological warning.

The rock is obedience to the way of life Jesus just laid out in the Sermon on the Mount—a life shaped from the inside out by the kingdom.

 

[Roger316]

Please post my quote stating that a house built on the teachings of JESUS will not survive.


Please explain what you THINK my view is and HOW it requires a 3rd option.


Here are the 2 options:


1. We ACT on the words of Jesus and are safe from the storm.



2. We DO NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and are not safe from the storm.


ACTING means DOING.
DOING what we HEAR Jesus teaching.


No 3rd option necessary.

No loopholes.

To “act on” Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is not to perform a series of moral tasks but to let His vision of the kingdom become the deep structure of your life. Jesus is describing the kind of person who has been reshaped from the inside out—someone whose trust, desires, relationships, and instincts have been reoriented around the Father’s character and the values of the kingdom. Acting on His words means receiving His teaching as the governing pattern of your life: trusting the Father rather than anxiety, pursuing reconciliation rather than anger, loving enemies rather than retaliating, giving and praying in secret rather than performing for approval, and seeking God’s kingdom rather than self‑advancement. These are not isolated commands but a unified way of being.

This is why Jesus ends with the image of a foundation rather than a list of rules. A foundation is not something you do once; it is something your whole life rests on. Acting on His words means building your identity, your choices, and your hopes on the reality He reveals—letting His teaching shape who you are at the core. The wise builder is not the flawless performer but the person whose life is genuinely aligned with Jesus’ way, whose inner world has been re‑anchored in the kingdom. When the storm of judgment comes, it is not the quantity of deeds that matters but the quality of the foundation—whether the life was truly rooted in Jesus’ teaching or merely decorated with religious admiration.

 

[Toknow]

My explanation differs from modalism by saying that the one God relates to believers three ways or as three Persons simultaneously,
I find the insight regarding the three prepositions that indicate these ways to be quite biblical and helpful for discerning the differences not very well distinguished by the conjunction "and", as in "God the Father and the Son and the HS", although they do indeed work in conjunction with each other.

I am comfortable with this Scriptural understanding/harmonization and recommend using it when wanting to explain the divine Triunity to those who think the Trinity is a troublesome doctrine.

It's only troublesome to those that do not want to accept it.
It doesn't even need to be understood....just accepted.

It's the GOD RELATES TO PERSONS IN THìREE WAYS that sounds a little off...but I know what you mean.
When I was teaching the trinity to yound kids (about 11 to 13) I'd give the example that the Tinity is like a man
that is a brother, a husband, a father.

I'm sure that you understand that this is modulism which is heretical.
In fact, I found that whatever example I used it would fall into some kind of heresy.
But with kids it's necessary.

I think you're a good studier of scriputre G...
I wish everyone did this.

 

[Roger316]

Missed this.

I've posted many verses that teach that we are to do good works.
NONE of them require stopping to analiyze why we are doing them.

Why do you call them "good"? If you don't know why you are doing them, then how do you know they are good?

 

[Toknow]

Think of it this way. The house is fully built before the storm. His parable says nothing about:

• a man who abandons the project
• a man who partially builds
• a man who builds well and then tears it down
• a man who switches foundations halfway

He gives only two completed houses. He doesn't give a half-built house scenario. Instead, He uses

HOW are the houses completed?

JESUS said that one person ACTS
and one person does NOT ACT.

The houses are built on HOW ONE ACTS OR DOES NOT ACT.

• two completed houses
• two hidden foundations
• one final test

The entire force of the parable is: You cannot tell the difference between the saved and the unsaved by looking at the house. Only the foundation matters, and the storm reveals it.

Do you see the word SAVED anywhere in Matthew 7?

Please point it out.

So what does this say about loss of salvation? It implies the opposite.

The parable assumes:

• A true foundation endures the storm
• A false foundation collapses
• No switching foundations mid‑construction
• No losing what was truly built on rock

Did I say it was about loss of salvation?
Strike two.

It has to do with obedience.
Those who DO NOT OBEY are never saved.

Our salvation depends on OBEYING GOD.

The wise man’s house never collapses. The foolish man’s house was never secure.

This aligns with the broader biblical pattern:

• True faith endures
• False faith is exposed
• The final judgment reveals what was always true

The parable is about final vindication, not mid‑life apostasy.

Where is anything in Matthew 7 referring to enduring?

Where is FALSE FAITH spoken of?

As usual...
you add to scriputre.
you change what Jesus is teaching.

You bring your own ideology to the NT instead of receiving from it.
You practice eisegesis.

You put the cart before the horse,,,

In the context of Matthew, the storm is divine judgment—the ultimate testing of a life. Jesus is closing His sermon with an eschatological warning.

The rock is obedience to the way of life Jesus just laid out in the Sermon on the Mount—a life shaped from the inside out by the kingdom.

What does a life shaped from the inside out look like?

To me it looks like obedience to God.


A simple YES we need to obey God would be nice...

 

[Toknow]

Why do you call them "good"? If you don't know why you are doing them, then how do you know they are good?

If YOU are hungry
and I give you FOOD

Do I need to know why I'm doing it?
Are you thankful for the food or do you ask WHY I'm giving it to you?

What nonsense.

 

[GWH]

It's only troublesome to those that do not want to accept it.
It doesn't even need to be understood....just accepted.

It's the GOD RELATES TO PERSONS IN THìREE WAYS that sounds a little off...but I know what you mean.
When I was teaching the trinity to yound kids (about 11 to 13) I'd give the example that the Tinity is like a man
that is a brother, a husband, a father.

I'm sure that you understand that this is modulism which is heretical.
In fact, I found that whatever example I used it would fall into some kind of heresy.
But with kids it's necessary.

I think you're a good studier of scriputre G...
I wish everyone did this.

It is true that Truth should be accepted, but if folks would attempt to harmonize/connect dots in GW they might be surprised at how much more is indicated than they initially thought. At least, that is what I have learned. Of course, no explanation is perfect, but "brother, husband, father" seems pretty good.

God the Father would be the father, God the Son would be the brother and God the HS would be the... husband?--and we the bride. A little awkward, but close enough. (I am a sufficientist rather than a perfectionist :^)

I bet God wishes everyone would desire/be willing to learn His Word (Matt. 4:4 & 5:6, Eph. 4:11-15).
Good discussing it with you.

 

[Toknow]

To “act on” Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is not to perform a series of moral tasks but to let His vision of the kingdom become the deep structure of your life.

Very good.
Now HOW do we achieve this vision of the kingdom?

By NOT acting on the teachings of Jesus?
By NOT obeying Him?

Jesus is describing the kind of person who has been reshaped from the inside out—someone whose trust, desires, relationships, and instincts have been reoriented around the Father’s character and the values of the kingdom. Acting on His words means receiving His teaching as the governing pattern of your life: trusting the Father rather than anxiety, pursuing reconciliation rather than anger, loving enemies rather than retaliating, giving and praying in secret rather than performing for approval, and seeking God’s kingdom rather than self‑advancement. These are not isolated commands but a unified way of being.

Agreed.

This is why Jesus ends with the image of a foundation rather than a list of rules.

Sir...Jesus has a long list of rules.
Some just do not want to see them.

Loving God
Loving our neighbor
requires a long list of rules.

A foundation is not something you do once; it is something your whole life rests on. Acting on His words means building your identity, your choices, and your hopes on the reality He reveals—letting His teaching shape who you are at the core. The wise builder is not the flawless performer but the person whose life is genuinely aligned with Jesus’ way, whose inner world has been re‑anchored in the kingdom. When the storm of judgment comes, it is not the quantity of deeds that matters but the quality of the foundation—whether the life was truly rooted in Jesus’ teaching or merely decorated with religious admiration.

We will be judged by our deeds....
some miss this part of the NT:


John 5:28-29 Jesus said
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



Romans 2:6
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.




2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.



Revelation 22:12 Jesus said
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.



Matthew 16:27
27For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

 

[Roger316]

HOW are the houses completed?

JESUS said that one person ACTS
and one person does NOT ACT.

The houses are built on HOW ONE ACTS OR DOES NOT ACT.



Do you see the word SAVED anywhere in Matthew 7?

Please point it out.




Did I say it was about loss of salvation?
Strike two.

It has to do with obedience.
Those who DO NOT OBEY are never saved.

Our salvation depends on OBEYING GOD.


Where is anything in Matthew 7 referring to enduring?

Where is FALSE FAITH spoken of?

As usual...
you add to scriputre.
you change what Jesus is teaching.

You bring your own ideology to the NT instead of receiving from it.
You practice eisegesis.

You put the cart before the horse,,,



What does a life shaped from the inside out look like?

To me it looks like obedience to God.


A simple YES we need to obey God would be nice...

Do you see the word SAVED anywhere in Matthew 7?

The parable describes a house that survives a storm. In a sense, the house was "saved" from the storm. The house is fully built before the storm hits. This places both the storm and salvation at the time of the final judgment.

Those who DO NOT OBEY are never saved.

The parable describes the building of a house, which illustrates the building of a life. The building of a life is not about keeping all the rules, it's about learning wisdom from the rules and living according to that wisdom. The parable isn't illustrating obedience in the narrow "rule-keeping" sense.

The parable illustrates a man who builds on a foundation. A foundation is not something you "do;" it is something you build on. To act on what Jesus taught is to become a wise builder. Accordingly, the action illustrated by the parable is applying the wisdom of what Jesus taught to our lives.

 

[Roger316]

If YOU are hungry
and I give you FOOD

Do I need to know why I'm doing it?
Are you thankful for the food or do you ask WHY I'm giving it to you?

What nonsense.

Do I need to know why I'm doing it?

Yes, we need to know why we do what we do. Having pure motives is a common theme in the New Testament.

Do I need to know why you are giving me food? No. I don't really care. But I should. Remember when Jesus fed the 5,000? He was critical of the crowd because they sought him for his ability to feed them rather than for what he was teaching.

 

[Mem]

Do I need to know why I'm doing it?

Yes, we need to know why we do what we do. Having pure motives is a common theme in the New Testament.

Do I need to know why you are giving me food? No. I don't really care. But I should. Remember when Jesus fed the 5,000? He was critical of the crowd because they sought him for his ability to feed them rather than for what he was teaching.

A good example of following the Lord's leading rather than taking on any sort of 'blanket' approach. He may direct us to give one food while overlooking another. His leading will prove fruitful while going on our own would bring no yield.

The sin of the spies is a case in point. They didn't go in when God told them to go in, and when they decided to go in on their own, the results for them were disastrous.

 

[studier]

Re: Faith-Obedience – Faith which is Obedience – Obedience which is Faith

The argument that Heb3 does not tell us this truth, was dropped without being proven.

Some research showing Heb3 does teach us Faith-Obedience:

NKJ Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

• The underlined phrase is important. It tells us what this unbelief is and does.
• It establishes how we’re going to understand the next several verses that will be book-ended as a summary of various terminology with the same word “unbelief”
• Some instruct that this language does not equate belief with obedience. Typically this follows a faith alone theology that must separate faith from obedience or there is no faith alone as they see it.

Research:

• When I translate this infinitive clause “in departing from the living God,” my simple version would be to translate it as the NKJ does. So, the evil, heart [of] unbelief (which can also be translated “evil, unbelieving heart”) is IN the departing. The departure is not a result of the heart condition – it’s not the heart causing the departure - the departure IS the heart condition.
• Resources:
  • 1. Votaw — The Use of the Infinitive in Biblical Greek(1896), pp. 54–55
    • Classifies the construction as giving content or substance.
      • The withdrawal from God is the content or substance of the unbelieving heart – the withdrawal is the unbelief
  • 2. A.T. Robertson — A Grammar of the Greek New Testament(1914), pp. 1067–1068
    • Explains the construction as showing what the idea consists of.
      • The withdrawal is what unbelief consists of.
  • 3. BDF — Blass–Debrunner–Funk: A Greek Grammar of the NT(1961), §404
    • Glosses the phrase as “in the form of an accomplished apostasy.”
      • The withdrawal is the form of the unbelief
  • 4. Moulton–Turner — A Grammar of NT Greek, Vol. 3: Syntax(1963), p. 146
    • Identifies the construction as epexegetical (explanatory).
      • The withdrawal explains unbelief
  • 5. Moulton — A Grammar of NT Greek, Vol. 1: Prolegomena(1906), pp. 178, 193
    • The evil heart [of] unbelief is normal Greek moral language describing inner posture – a heart withdrawing from God
• Basic literal translation and these scholarly resources tell us:
  • The withdraw from God is unbelief – unbelief is withdrawal from God
  • There is no separation of the 2 concepts
  • The evil unbelieving heart is IN the departure from the living God

As Hebrews3 continues, it equates this unbelief/departure to:

• revolt/rebellion Heb3:15
• provoking [God] to anger, being rebellious, being disobedient Heb3:16
• sinning (and corpses falling in the desert) Heb3:17
• disobeying [God] Heb3:18
• Then, Heb3:19 bookends "unbelief" beginning in Heb3:12 and speaks in summary language:
  • "And so, we see that they were not able to enter through/on account of/because of unbelief."
  • Unbelief summarizes all of the above.
  • Unbelief is the summary word that includes:
    • Disobedience
    • Sin
    • Provoking God
    • Revolt/rebellion
    • An evil heart [of] unbelief which departs from the living God
• So:
  • Unbelief/departure/revolt/rebellion/provocation/sin/disobedience
    • They are all speaking of the same thing – different words but all are unbelief – parts of unbelief
    • They are parallel, mutually interpreting descriptions, mutually defining terms for unbelief

Faith-Obedience

• Different words with the same functional reality of having relationship with God
• They are not separate in the Word
• There is ultimately no such thing as Faith in God without Obedience to God
• The Word will proceed to build upon this foundation with words like faithfulness and love.

 

[Musicmaster]

Is it true that those who hear the trumpet will be saved and those that don't go to hell?

Historic revisionism, by creating ties that don't exist, is popular among the wishful thinkers.

Calvinism had nothing to do with establishing the everlasting salvation of true believers. Paul taught all believers who have faith in his gospel are sealed by Holy Spirit and that the Father gives His Spirit as earnest...meaning He will never forfeit His own Spirit by taking back His salvation once given.

Additionally, what trumpet are you asking about?

MM

 

[Mem]

You're a waste to God and man.

ToKnot slithered this in there. Smooth move.

 

[Musicmaster]

Do I need to know why I'm doing it?

Yes, we need to know why we do what we do. Having pure motives is a common theme in the New Testament.

Do I need to know why you are giving me food? No. I don't really care. But I should. Remember when Jesus fed the 5,000? He was critical of the crowd because they sought him for his ability to feed them rather than for what he was teaching.

Many are guilty of not giving money to people, for example, those standing on the streets with photos of some kid, claiming they're trying to raise money for his funeral costs. There's a video on Youtube of a guy who went around his city with a huge wad of cash, asking those people where the funeral home is located so that he can go there and pay outright for the funeral. The rip-off artists demand he leave them alone, and they ran to jump into a van to drive off to another part of the city and take up their scam once again, only to be found and questioned by the guy again.

Rather than to hand over cash, I now offer to buy them a meal and/or provisions of what they need. In most cases, I'm cussed out, flipped off, chastised in general for not giving them what they want...which in most cases is only enablement for their drug habit or for their professional panhandling careers.

One guy sitting in a wheelchair somewhere in a city I was visiting, allegedly without legs, eventually got up and walked on two fully formed legs to restore circulation...

MM

 

[Roger316]

Very good.
Now HOW do we achieve this vision of the kingdom?

By NOT acting on the teachings of Jesus?
By NOT obeying Him?


Agreed.


Sir...Jesus has a long list of rules.
Some just do not want to see them.

Loving God
Loving our neighbor
requires a long list of rules.



We will be judged by our deeds....
some miss this part of the NT:


John 5:28-29 Jesus said
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



Romans 2:6
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.




2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.



Revelation 22:12 Jesus said
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.



Matthew 16:27
27For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Loving God
Loving our neighbor
requires a long list of rules.

You quoted Romans 2:6-8, and this passage illustrates my point. Paul asserts that we will be judged according to our deeds, and then he establishes the qualification for eternal life based on what a person seeks.

A. Eternal life

1. What he seeks
   1. glory
   2. honor
   3. immortality

B. Wrath and indignation

1. what he seeks
   1. selfishly ambitious
   2. what is false

Here we see the importance of knowing why we do what we do. What are we seeking?

 

[JanineJ07]

Historic revisionism, by creating ties that don't exist, is popular among the wishful thinkers.

Calvinism had nothing to do with establishing the everlasting salvation of true believers. Paul taught all believers who have faith in his gospel are sealed by Holy Spirit and that the Father gives His Spirit as earnest...meaning He will never forfeit His own Spirit by taking back His salvation once given.

Additionally, what trumpet are you asking about?

MM

The last Trumpet/Judgment as the eternal gospel.