The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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Its what i keep asking.Ok, but can you address the Scriptures I posted not with your own words but with Scripture, because it clearly shows where there is no law there is no sin Rom4:15, sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4 therefore there was a law people were accountable for before Moses, before God codified His commandments because there was sin. We plainly see Gods law was given to people Gen26:5 Exo16:26-28 that people were accountable before it was written/codified personally by God Exo31:18 at Mt Sinai.
You keep using your own words as if they are Scripture, can you actually post the verses instead of your words so we can see what is really stated.
Is it your claim that God killed people because of sin without telling them what sin is?
I have worshiped with Messianic Congregations before and they never tried to guilt or condemn people for not keeping the customs and practices that were instituted by the Mosaic covenant. I have seen people here become so obsessed with this that they tell all non-Sabbatatian believers that they will be damned for not keeping Shabbat. Their "gospel" was rejected in the NT by the Apostles and teachers Jesus sent to take the message of salvation to the nations. I have been in a few cults and like them this group uses NT terminology but the content of their message deviates from the historic truth about Christ and His message of salvation.
Yeah, Sabbath Keepers are 14%'ers. They only rest on 1 day out of 7. The Lord commands that we enter into His rest as long as it is called "today". That's resting for 7 days out of 7. Rest, you see, is a way of life, not merely a religious observance.
"..but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
7herefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."
So what God in a cult when cut off an entire generation for profaning the Sabbath that kept them out of their inheritance and kept them wondering around in the wilderness for 40 years until they eventually died?
Eze 20:15So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.
Was Paul in a cult for warning us not to follow in the same example of disobedience Heb 4:11
I would be careful using the word cult around something God blessed and sanctified and something God blesses the man who keeps Isa56:2 and what God says is doing justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 which is the foundation of His throne Psa89:14 calling good for evil and evil for good is something we are warned about Isa5:20 because doing evil stays that was and doing righteousnes does as well Rev22:11
Sadly most are misunderstanding what the Sabbath represents that God has clearly shown us in His word.
God literally told us its the opposite of why the Israelites rebelled and could not enter their rest. Sad the word of God gets misrepresented when God said it so plainly.
Eze 20:13;Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Eze 20:15So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.
Why we are called today not to not harden our hearts and follow in the same example of rebellion, sin and disobedience Heb 4:6 Heb3:7-19 Heb4:11 You literally added your words over what God said plainly. I would be careful of that, but we have free will.
We should worship God 365/24/7 but many get devotion confused with worship. Jesus related it to obeying the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Commandments Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13
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This is where you need to return to Romans 5.
You'll need to learn this for yourself.
Much love!
But I addressed it- you have not you just keep repeating the same passage that has been address with Scripture.
Right. Like I said I am done with the exchange of smart aleck replies and scripture flinging as if from medieval catapults and the general denial of the blood of Jesus being the actual catalyst of the covenant as described in the New Testament....I think I've made that pretty clear?
I belonged to a Messianic congregation some yrs back and enjoyed it quite a bit. The problems came when the leaders entered into an arguement with an actual Jewish congregation and the atmosphere changed and I moved anyway so that ended that. (unrelated to the arguement) But no problem on what day a person goes to church and the conviction they have is between them and God.
I am very clear on what is going on here. Very. Clear. I had it brought home to me that this is a spiritual attack against the gospel and like I said, I have not seen one like it here before. The commandments are not the gospel and when someone says they follow Jesus but deny He stated the covenant was in His blood by ignoring it...I can only come to one conclusion.
I actually feel like something has been lifted off of me by the decision to stop responding and I prob should have done that some time back....but of course I cannot tell others what to do but I hope the actual problem of replacing the blood of Christ with commandments hits home with believers if it has not before.
I have been called the devil by someone in this thread for starters and the conviction some have that all who worship on Sunday bare the mark of the beast is beyond anything in my prior knowledge of SDA people but they are not all of that belief. Even so, at least a couple here are.
I have had an education as I am sure others are also at this point and I wish everyone would ignore the instigators and the op but that will not happen. I don't mind answering honest posts or questions here, but otherwise I am done as I said.
Thanks
As if . . .
I've posted plainly stated Scripture. There is no passage that negates it. The Bible is not like that.
Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Sin was not imputed because there was only one commandment given at that time, which could not be violated due to the cherubim and flaming Sword that guarded the way to the garden.
Even so they died because they sinned.
This is clear as can be, with no contradiction.
I'm not planning to continue to repeat myself. It's up to you what you will accept. This is plainly stated Scripture.
Much love!
I know, its the same passage I have addressed https://christianchat.com/threads/t...the-covenant-did-you-know.221336/post-5724311. I am asking you to go to the next step and address the post that addresses this passage with Scripture. Otherwise we keep going in a loop.
I agree. You can have the Law, or you can have the Gospel. You cannot have both. Nor would anyone want both, who understands the Gospel.
Much love!
So the gospel allows us to worship other gods, vain His holy name and steal from our neighbors and disobeys God Mat5:19-30 John3:36? Our salvation (the good news) is from sin. Mat 1:21 no one is saved in their sins Heb10:26-30
The law of God is part of the gospel message because it shows we are only worshipping Him! Jesus related our worship to obedience to the commandments of God Mat15:3-14 why its part of the everlasting gospel. Why we are being called out of these false teachings that deceived our first parents that we can disobey God and live, the opposite of what God said.
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth— to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
“saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” (which echo's the 4th commandment Exo20:11)
And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” — Revelation 14:6–12 (NKJV)
Keeping the commandments of God and faith of Jesus is the everlasting gospel because it shows that Jesus has transformed us from the inside out, no longer a slave to sin and the devil but now we serve the LORD Isa56:6 who sets us free from sin and death. This is the everlasting gospel.
Sadly teaching the gospel message where there is no repentance from sin Mat4:17 which is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 James2:11-12 doesn't free us from sin, it holds us hostage Rom6:16 and puts us in a bad spot once Jesus returns 1John2:4 Mat7:21-23
I note that you didn't react to my point about the empty temple and the missing ark. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume that we both agree that the Ark wasn't present in the Second Temple. The image of the Ark of the Covenant located in heaven conveys the idea that God intends to keep his covenant with Israel, namely, "I will be God to you, and you will be a people for me."
Regarding the Second Temple in Jerusalem, Jesus not only foresaw the fall of the Jerusalem temple; He treated it as the decisive turning point in God’s relationship with sacred space. When He warned that “not one stone will be left on another” and declared, “Your house is left to you desolate,” He was announcing more than political catastrophe. He was signaling that the temple had ceased to function as the meeting place between God and humanity. Its sacrificial system, its priesthood, and even its geography had all reached their appointed end. The tearing of the veil at His death dramatizes this shift: the old access point to God is no longer where God intends His people to meet Him. The temple’s destruction becomes the visible confirmation of a theological reality Jesus had already inaugurated.
At the same time, Jesus redirects worship away from a building and toward a new mode of communion with God. In His conversation with the Samaritan woman, He insists that the era of location‑based worship is closing: neither Gerizim nor Jerusalem will define where God is found. Instead, because “God is spirit,” true worshipers will worship “in spirit and truth.” That is not a vague spirituality but a Spirit‑empowered, Christ‑centered way of approaching God that no longer depends on sacred architecture. Jesus Himself becomes the new temple—“destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”—and through His resurrection and the gift of the Spirit, His people become a living temple. In this way, Jesus both predicts the abandonment of the earthly temple and replaces it with a new, universal, Spirit‑filled form of worship that is no longer tied to a physical sanctuary but to His own presence among His people.
Give me a hint.
You need to decide if the covering over the Ark is the Mercy seat or the judgment seat.
The logic of judgment says, “You get what your actions deserve.”
The logic of mercy says, “You receive what God’s compassion provides.”
In Romans 5, Paul’s logic is that judgment operates by strict equivalence, but grace operates by overwhelming excess. One trespass brings condemnation — a single act is enough to expose guilt. But God’s mercy doesn’t answer sin with a one‑for‑one counterbalance. Instead, Paul says, “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” Judgment is proportional; mercy is disproportionate. Judgment matches the offense; grace overflows it.
That’s why Paul can say that “the free gift is not like the trespass.” Judgment flows from one sin to a verdict of guilt, but grace flows from the “many trespasses” to a verdict of righteousness. In other words, sin has a linear logic, but grace has an exponential one. Sin can condemn, but grace can restore, reconcile, and recreate. Paul’s point is not that sin is small — it’s that grace is immeasurably larger. Judgment exposes what we are; mercy transforms who we become.
just adding to this thread here not replying to anyone in particular;
Jesus spoke often about rest, but not the kind people first think of. He was not speaking of sleep or stopping work for a day. He was speaking of the deep rest of the soul, a rest that comes when a person returns to God and walks in His ways.
He said, “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28, ASV). These words are gentle and open. He calls those who are tired, not only in body, but in heart. Many carry burdens of sin, fear, guilt, and the pressure of this world. These things make the soul restless. Christ offers something different.
Then He says, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:29–30, ASV). This may sound strange at first. How can a yoke, which is something placed on someone, bring rest? But Jesus shows that His way is not like the heavy ways of men. His yoke is not oppression, but guidance. It is walking with Him, learning from Him, step by step.
The rest He gives is not found in doing nothing, but in doing what is right with a willing heart. When a person fights against God, there is no peace inside. But when he turns, obeys, and trusts, the struggle inside becomes calm. This is the rest of Christ.
He also showed this in how He lived. He did not chase after the things of the world. He trusted the Father in all things. Even in trouble, He remained at peace. This is the example He gives to those who follow Him.
Jesus warned that many people are always busy, always worried. He said, “Be not anxious for your life” (Matthew 6:25, ASV), and again, “Be not therefore anxious for the morrow” (Matthew 6:34, ASV). Worry takes away rest. It fills the heart with fear. But trust in God brings quietness inside.
There is also a deeper part to His rest. He said, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32, ASV). Freedom and rest go together. When a person is bound by sin, he has no rest. But when he keeps the words of Christ, he becomes free, and his soul finds peace.
And again He said, “If a man keep my word, he shall never see death” (John 8:51, ASV). This shows that His rest is not only for this life, but also for what is to come. It is a rest that begins now and continues into eternal life.
From the beginning, God showed the pattern of rest. After His work, He rested. Not because He was tired, but to show completion and peace. Christ brings that same completion into the heart. When a person comes to Him, the wandering stops, the searching ends, and the heart finds its place.
But this rest is not forced on anyone. Jesus said, “If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching” (John 7:17, ASV). The rest is for those who choose to follow. It is for those who hear His words and do them. Like the wise man who built his house upon the rock (Matthew 7:24–25), they stand firm and are not shaken. That firmness is also part of His rest.
So the rest of Christ is a living rest. It is peace with God, freedom from sin, a quiet heart without fear, and a steady walk in truth. It is not empty or idle. It is full of life, light, and purpose. And it is given freely to all who come to Him and remain in His word.
Jesus spoke often about rest, but not the kind people first think of. He was not speaking of sleep or stopping work for a day. He was speaking of the deep rest of the soul, a rest that comes when a person returns to God and walks in His ways.
He said, “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28, ASV). These words are gentle and open. He calls those who are tired, not only in body, but in heart. Many carry burdens of sin, fear, guilt, and the pressure of this world. These things make the soul restless. Christ offers something different.
Then He says, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:29–30, ASV). This may sound strange at first. How can a yoke, which is something placed on someone, bring rest? But Jesus shows that His way is not like the heavy ways of men. His yoke is not oppression, but guidance. It is walking with Him, learning from Him, step by step.
The rest He gives is not found in doing nothing, but in doing what is right with a willing heart. When a person fights against God, there is no peace inside. But when he turns, obeys, and trusts, the struggle inside becomes calm. This is the rest of Christ.
He also showed this in how He lived. He did not chase after the things of the world. He trusted the Father in all things. Even in trouble, He remained at peace. This is the example He gives to those who follow Him.
Jesus warned that many people are always busy, always worried. He said, “Be not anxious for your life” (Matthew 6:25, ASV), and again, “Be not therefore anxious for the morrow” (Matthew 6:34, ASV). Worry takes away rest. It fills the heart with fear. But trust in God brings quietness inside.
There is also a deeper part to His rest. He said, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32, ASV). Freedom and rest go together. When a person is bound by sin, he has no rest. But when he keeps the words of Christ, he becomes free, and his soul finds peace.
And again He said, “If a man keep my word, he shall never see death” (John 8:51, ASV). This shows that His rest is not only for this life, but also for what is to come. It is a rest that begins now and continues into eternal life.
From the beginning, God showed the pattern of rest. After His work, He rested. Not because He was tired, but to show completion and peace. Christ brings that same completion into the heart. When a person comes to Him, the wandering stops, the searching ends, and the heart finds its place.
But this rest is not forced on anyone. Jesus said, “If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching” (John 7:17, ASV). The rest is for those who choose to follow. It is for those who hear His words and do them. Like the wise man who built his house upon the rock (Matthew 7:24–25), they stand firm and are not shaken. That firmness is also part of His rest.
So the rest of Christ is a living rest. It is peace with God, freedom from sin, a quiet heart without fear, and a steady walk in truth. It is not empty or idle. It is full of life, light, and purpose. And it is given freely to all who come to Him and remain in His word.
Its impossible to reason with someone who uses their words as if its Scripture.
There earthy temple was only a copy of what is in heaven. Heb9:23-24 Heb8:1-5 Where God's ark is Rev11:19 not empty but contained His Testimony Exo31:18 Exo 25:16 Exo 25:21 Exo 40:20 Rev15:5KJV Rev11:19 , the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 under His mercy seat where judgement and mercy will come together soon. Rev 11:18-19 There is no Scripture that says the ark of the covenant is empty - these may be your words, but its not God's and I go by what He said.
If you want to address what is stated with Scripture I will engage otherwise I do not think its a fruitful discussion, but I do wish you well.
I suspect that the underlying question behind @markss statement is what we are seeking from God through our obedience. Typically, worshippers seek God's favor and approval, so we are discussing whether God expects us to seek his approval by resting on Saturday.
Paul, the Apostle, argues that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Since Paul spends a lot of time in many letters to many churches around the world arguing this point, it hardly seems worth the effort to disagree on this point.
You and I seem to agree on this point, except you have elevated the Ten Commandments above Moses, allowing obedience to the Fourth Commandment to override Paul's argument for justification by faith.
Nevertheless, one would be hard-pressed to find a passage of scripture where the Apostles make the exception you are making. When Paul says we are justified by faith apart from the Law, he means apart from the entire law, including the Ten Commandments. There are no exceptions.