Was Mary Sinless?

[bytheblood]

Romans 8 v 15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

I know what the correct answer is, but I was asking Lovette who claims that if you're not saved you don't have a spirit.

 

[Magenta]

I know what the correct answer is, but I was asking Lovette who claims that if you're not saved you don't have a spirit.

I thought you were speaking to sawdust, anyways, my post was not quoting anyone,
just a general response to what I see going on/being discussed on the board...

 

[bytheblood]

Well you don't seem to understand the distinction between the three beings of the holy trinity. As long as the Father is not the Son and the Son not the Father, they shall not be smudged into one "Word".

I believe what 1 Jn. 4:1-3 says, how about you? By that measure, the true Christ must come in the flesh, therefore any theophany in the OT such as a glowing bush could only be God the Father speaking through a medium.

I never said that the Father was the Word or the Holy Spirit, nor the Word the Spirit, nor the Spirit the Word. But they are one. Christ has indeed come, and still is, in the flesh but the Word put on or was born, in the flesh but He existed before creation. In fact all things, all of creation, was created by, through and for Him. " If you had known Me , ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him. Philip saith unto Him, Lord, SHOW US THE FATHER, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet thou hast not known Me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayeth thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:7-9 " For unto us a child is born (Jesus), and unto us a Son is given (the Word): and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty GOD, the everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. I believe what the Bible says. " That all men should honor the Son, EVEN (the same) AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER, He that honors not the Son honors not the Father, which hath sent Him." John 5:23 Since God is a title, not a name, Jesus is worthy to be called God, He is called that in scripture, and it's not robbery. Do you believe scripture? Look it up in Hebrew, Greek or Chaldee.

 

[Caan]

was mary sinless?

No.

 

[Lovette]

I never said that the Father was the Word or the Holy Spirit, nor the Word the Spirit, nor the Spirit the Word. But they are one. Christ has indeed come, and still is, in the flesh but the Word put on or was born, in the flesh but He existed before creation. In fact all things, all of creation, was created by, through and for Him. " If you had known Me , ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him. Philip saith unto Him, Lord, SHOW US THE FATHER, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet thou hast not known Me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayeth thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:7-9 " For unto us a child is born (Jesus), and unto us a Son is given (the Word): and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty GOD, the everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. I believe what the Bible says. " That all men should honor the Son, EVEN (the same) AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER, He that honors not the Son honors not the Father, which hath sent Him." John 5:23 Since God is a title, not a name, Jesus is worthy to be called God, He is called that in scripture, and it's not robbery. Do you believe scripture? Look it up in Hebrew, Greek or Chaldee.

What are you even arguing for? What are you trying to say? Now you're just lecturing, if not ranting, condescendingly. My only point is that OT theophanies are all God the Father speaking through mediums, except prophecies and visions of the messiah such as Isaiah 9:6. I don't see how this is offensive or vexing to you.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6
John 3:6 does not apply to the unbeliever.
The Spirit does not beget a human spirit in an unbeliever.

So what differentiates a moving creature that has life from a corpse?

In Ezekiel, after the hand of the LORD had carried him to a valley of dry bones, the LORD asked the Son of man, can these bones live? Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. And the Son of man said "Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."

Again in the book of Ezekiel, the LORD says prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live and he did as and the breath came into them, and they lived.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

Does the natural minded man hear the wind blow?

 

[Needevidence]

From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

Interesting - any passages you advance regarding atonement & Mary had sin?

 

[Needevidence]

The sin nature is passed from the father, not the mother. This is why Jesus was uniquely the "seed of a woman." Having no earthly father, He inherited no sin nature. It is also a biological miracle that He was male, since we know today that the Y chromosome is passed directly from father to son. Every other man on earth shares Adam’s Y chromosome, but Jesus was the only one to ever bypass that lineage.

any passages to advance your position sin from Father only?

Seed agreed comes from the father – Adam’s seed was from who? And what about Melchizedek?

 

[dkontner]

There is one God and He made everything. He wrote about the it. Of course Mary had sin. That said, she was blessed by the Lord.

 

[sawdust]

Does God, who is Spirit, speak to your soul or spirit?

Speaks to my soul, my spirit translates. We are souls, to speak to my soul is to speak to me.

Luke 1:46
And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord,

 

[TruthDefender]

They can fall from grace.

So what do you think this means?

 

[TruthDefender]

There is one God and He made everything. He wrote about the it. Of course Mary had sin. That said, she was blessed by the Lord.

Welcome new member! Love your pups pic!

 

[Caan]

Wait! Wait!
I understand now,
mary was sinless until the Pope removed her as a co-redemptrix

 

[Genez]

Come on... THINK!

How can this be?

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, ​

and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6​

Why should the Holy Spirit beget a human spirit?
If all unregenerate souls have a human spirit?
It is a spirit uniquely given to us when we are born again.

Here is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but our human spirit.

​

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

OT believers received a human spirit when they believed. Not the indwelling Holy Spirit.

​

Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,​

and the golden bowl is broken;​

before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,​

and the wheel broken at the well,​

and the dust returns to the ground it came from,​

and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7​

The indwelling Holy Spirit came only with the Church age.
All believers throughout time were GIVEN by God a human spirit!

​

And the dust returns to the ground it came from,​

and the spirit returns to God who gave it."​

It is the Word of God.

 

[Genez]

So what do you think this means?

I really do not think you are ready for it...

It's "meat."

 

[Genez]

I know what the correct answer is, but I was asking Lovette who claims that if you're not saved you don't have a spirit.

Why should anyone have a human spirit (to know the things of God with) if he is not yet regenerated?

The unregenerate soul can not know the things of God!

​

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, ​

for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they ​

are spiritually discerned. " 1 Corinthians 2:14​

.....

 

[rewriter]

But not there. Almost counts only in horseshoes.

Nope, almost also counts in handgrenades and nuclear bombs.

 

[rewriter]

If Jesus did not have Mary's DNA?
Jesus could not have been a son of David, as promised to David.
Jesus is the promised "Son of David," the Messiah, who fulfills the Old Testament covenant
that a descendant of David would reign on an everlasting throne (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

It is possible, because...
The woman's ovum does not transfer the sin nature.
The man's sperm does that.

That is why Genesis 3:15 says Jesus would be from the "seed of the woman."

Can you back up that the sin nature is transferred only by the man's sperm with clear scripture? And remember, up to 1 in 10,000 births might not include any sperm, do you think that many people are born sinless?

 

[Genez]

Can you back up that the sin nature is transferred only by the man's sperm with clear scripture? And remember, up to 1 in 10,000 births might not include any sperm, do you think that many people are born sinless?

Jesus was not born without sperm.
The Holy Spirit provided what was needed for fertilization, not cloning.

As far as the man's sperm passing down the sin nature goes?

The woman sinned first.
She was deceived.
She became fallen.
Sin entered the world though Adam! (1 Timothy 2:14)
Because he was not deceived.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Romans 5:12​

Interesting point to be noted from the Greek.

When it says?... "because all sinned."

The Greek reveals that all sinned in a single point in time!
For when Adam sinned? We all sinned.

For the sin nature was guaranteed to be passed down to all through sexual reproduction.
It is in our flesh that the sin nature holds its domain.

​

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. Romans 7:18a​

​

​

grace and peace ............

 

[Genez]

I pray that God would open your eyes as He did Elisha's servant eyes, so you can see beyond the letter.

Elisha had the gift of being a prophet. We are not.

Also, very little Scripture existed in his day compared to all what we have been given for the Church.

Now these things, brothers, I have applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, ​

so that in us you may learn not to go beyond what is written, so that no one of you ​

will become puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6​

That is how church splits and schisms start.