How the idea of Immortal Soul got into the Church

[Reddogs]

The Bible doesn’t teach that people have immortal souls but many believe it. So how did this teaching enter Christian thinking, where did this corruption originate and how did it spread into the churh. As God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal, they are not in anyway immortal of their own self. Humans were made out of the dust basically theground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being, but not an immortal soul, when God breathed life into him

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul. Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.

Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

Here is one of the best explanation I have come across and every believer should carefully go through it and understand how this deception came into the church from what can only be called pagan Greek thought. 'Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments....

"Despite widespread use of the phrase immortal soul, this terminology is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).
Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced and corrupted by Greek philosophies as it spread through the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among Christian believers.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, "Soul," p. 1037).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments."

Only God has immortality, we wait for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, the soul that sins dies, and that immortality is a gift from God, who alone has immortality and gives the gift to the righteous at His second coming. But of their own self man does not have it..

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

 

[Reddogs]

Now some people say what about the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16, well lets take look at it.
Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First off, we have to determine to see if this is a parable; lets examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1
Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

So yes, there was a group of people or multitude present and we see..
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Jesus spoke only in parables to the multitudes, only when with His disciples did He unveil the meaning..
Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

It was hard enough for them to understand what He was saying but if you look the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16 Jesus tells the following parables..
The parable of the Lost Sheep
The parable of the Lost Coin
The parable of the Lost Son
The parable of the Shrewd Manager
and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

If you look, the parable of the Shrewd Manager begins exactly like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man...
Luke 16:1
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luke 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Many people read their Bible and its clear that when we die our physical body returns to dust, but then bring in the false idea that has spread and they also say that our 'soul' goes to heaven without our body. They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are 'reunited' with our physical bodies and they become glorified.

Well let's look at the facts given. The 'rich man' in the parable was buried as we see in verse 22, yet the very next verse says he had eyes to look up with. In verse 24 its says the buried 'rich man' had a tongue. The parable also says Lazarus has a finger and Abraham has a bosom. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul, not according to Jesus. Jesus said, if one looks, that a spirit does not have flesh and bones..

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I think we should believe what Christ declares rather than false ideas spread from pagan origin.

Christ says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abrahams bosom:

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Is Jesus in 'Abrahams bosom', of course not. Now in the parable it says a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation. Does that make sense, of course not. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually was to teach a moral point as the others, not how we die.

 

[GWH]

The Bible doesn’t teach that people have immortal souls but many believe it. So how did this teaching enter Christian thinking, where did this corruption originate and how did it spread into the churh. As God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal, they are not in anyway immortal of their own self. Humans were made out of the dust basically theground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being, but not an immortal soul, when God breathed life into him

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul. Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.

Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

Here is one of the best explanation I have come across and every believer should carefully go through it and understand how this deception came into the church from what can only be called pagan Greek thought. 'Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments....

"Despite widespread use of the phrase immortal soul, this terminology is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).
Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced and corrupted by Greek philosophies as it spread through the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among Christian believers.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, "Soul," p. 1037).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments."

Only God has immortality, we wait for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, the soul that sins dies, and that immortality is a gift from God, who alone has immortality and gives the gift to the righteous at His second coming. But of their own self man does not have it..

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Souls are mortal until they die and become immortal when they are resurrected on Judgment Day.
At the Judgment unsaved immortal souls will be consigned to destruction in hell after justice is achieved
(per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14), while saved immortal souls
will spend eternity in heaven (John 3:16, etc.). Halleluyay!

 

[tablet123]

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

The immortal soul in humans can still be cast in to hell if not saved.

God did not want them to eat from the tree of life after they sinned for they would stay in that state forever affecting their offspring with the same condition then there could not be salvation.

People are made of soul, spirit, and flesh, and they do not overlap, and are 3 separate components.

The spirit is our connection to God.

The flesh is our way.

And the soul makes the decision between the two.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man.

1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

All spirits go back to God who gave them regardless of how the person behaved on earth and whether saved or not.

The spirit cannot be corrupted so the spirit of the wicked goes back to God.

No person retains their spirit and it is not part of them when they die physically.

The spirit only applies when we are in the flesh.

The spirit is our connection to God.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The flesh is corrupt and will go back to dust.

So what part of people will be saved.

It is the soul that will be saved.

They are not going to have a glorified body and no part of them will be in heaven for how were they saved.

Something has to transfer to heaven that is part of us.

It is the soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

God breathed in man the breath of life and he became a living soul.

The soul is immortal in humans whether saved or not.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The souls in hell testify that the soul is immortal while in the human body.

If the spirit goes back to God and the flesh goes back to dust then what part of the wicked goes to hell and the lake of fire but it is the soul.

God breathed in to Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul an immortal soul.

The soul lives forever and will live forever either will God or not.

 

[timf]

Those in Hades / Sheol are said to have perception and memory. These attributes would have to exist in the soul as they are active after death. However, the gift of God is eternal life, why would this "gift" be given to the unsaved. I see the unsaved after judgment and any punishment thrown into the lake of fire for the second death.

 

[homwardbound]

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

therefore, reckon thyself dead to sin Romans 6:12, yet read from verse 1 please and through the whole chapter

God renews you the person for your Soul tube alive with Father God through risen Son for you to stand in belief trust. God makes each alive in God's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24. God's Spirit and Truth does the new work through you. You no longer do the work.
The work is done for you in Son to you, given to anyone in sincere beleif to God loves them above all else. thank you as said from Son it is done. Therefore what be your response? Mine Thank you
John 19:30. what is done, what got done? Are we to still be under Law Phil 3:11-20
2 Cor 5:17-21 is done. If I you or anyone else is trying to do what is done, That can be good or bad! Able to learn from.
This depends on whether or not anyone under Law comes to see they can not do Law perfectly ever. Then decides to trust God Father in risen Son for them to learn how to stand as said in Col 1:21-22 as is done by God for us all to stand in belief and not be moved Col 1:23
To see Phil 1:6, in trust God will get it done for us through us. To see Romans 14:1-4 also
God does just love all, that has been done for us all since even the fall of Adam and Eve. Today we have the second Adam who never failed and is for us to be received from God Father to us to just love in the same love and mercy of Son first. thank you John 13:34

 

[Adstar]

The Bible doesn’t teach that people have immortal souls but many believe it. So how did this teaching enter Christian thinking, where did this corruption originate and how did it spread into the churh. As God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal, they are not in anyway immortal of their own self. Humans were made out of the dust basically theground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being, but not an immortal soul, when God breathed life into him

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul. Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.

Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

Here is one of the best explanation I have come across and every believer should carefully go through it and understand how this deception came into the church from what can only be called pagan Greek thought. 'Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments....

"Despite widespread use of the phrase immortal soul, this terminology is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).
Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced and corrupted by Greek philosophies as it spread through the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among Christian believers.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, "Soul," p. 1037).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments."

Only God has immortality, we wait for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, the soul that sins dies, and that immortality is a gift from God, who alone has immortality and gives the gift to the righteous at His second coming. But of their own self man does not have it..

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

So you then should believe people will not be cast into the lake of fire and be in torment their forever and ever, if you are consistent in your belief that we shall not be immortal..

Also you should believe that we who are saved will be with the LORD Jesus forever and ever after the reasurection. Again because you believe no human being can be immortal..

So when do the saved cease to exist? and when do the damned cease to exist?

 

[GWH]

Souls are mortal until they die and become immortal when they are resurrected on Judgment Day.
At the Judgment unsaved immortal souls will be consigned to destruction in hell after justice is achieved
(per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14), while saved immortal souls
will spend eternity in heaven (John 3:16, etc.). Halleluyay!

The idea of immortal souls got into church doctrine per Gen. 3:22,
and the idea that evil immortal souls are not eternal per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.

 

[Reddogs]

So you then should believe people will not be cast into the lake of fire and be in torment their forever and ever, if you are consistent in your belief that we shall not be immortal..

Also you should believe that we who are saved will be with the LORD Jesus forever and ever after the reasurection. Again because you believe no human being can be immortal..

So when do the saved cease to exist? and when do the damned cease to exist?

Answer one question, do the wicked get eternal life or the saints?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Answer one question, do the wicked get eternal life or the saints?

The "life" the wicked will get is not life in Jesus. It's conscious eternal torment - forever apart from God, just like they wanted.


🕊

 

[Reddogs]

The "life" the wicked will get is not life in Jesus. It's conscious eternal torment - forever apart from God, just like they wanted.


🕊

So does God hang them out in 'conscious eternal torment' as the saints watch for eternity their friends, families, loved ones be tortured...

 

[TMS]

The "life" the wicked will get is not life in Jesus. It's conscious eternal torment - forever apart from God, just like they wanted.


🕊

Do people have life in and of themselves, OR are they given life from God???

Are we immortal???

No only God is immortal.

How do people that are seperated from God maintain life. How do they have life for eternity?

The answer that fits this false teaching is that God continues to give life to people so that they can suffer. That makes God a monster.

The God I worship does not prolong suffering for eternity.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Eze 18:32 KJV For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

If the wicked are alive for ever they also have eternal life and do not perish.
Joh 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Blade]

Very interesting for sure... praise GOD for the Internet huh..

 

[rewriter]

Let us consider the logic applied here. In the limited number of Hebrew root-words we have knowledge and understanding of, there are none that can be translated as "immortal soul", therefore the concept did not exist. Now there are known Hebraic terms that we are not certain just how to translate, and there are terms that seem to imply immortal souls among other terms in related languages that do not have clear parallels in the Hebrew that we possess. Now there are scattered phrases that could imply eternal life for human souls, but since they do not clearly state it, they cannot be referencing it.

Do I have it right? And you see any possible errors in your logic, such as "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever"?

 

[legion]

Answer one question, do the wicked get eternal life or the saints?

Everyone will be resurrected, some to life and some to death (hell-the lake of fire...the second death... eternal torment) Every knee shal bow... both in hell and heaven... indicating they are alive in some form.

 

[legion]

Do people have life in and of themselves, OR are they given life from God???

Are we immortal???

No only God is immortal.

How do people that are seperated from God maintain life. How do they have life for eternity?

The answer that fits this false teaching is that God continues to give life to people so that they can suffer. That makes God a monster.

The God I worship does not prolong suffering for eternity.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Eze 18:32 KJV For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

If the wicked are alive for ever they also have eternal life and do not perish.
Joh 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

this whole premise is ridiculous... if I am not going to face eternal punishment, and only be annihilated out of existence then why would I give up all the sinful pleasures as there is nothing to fear... I will be annihilated.

second John 3:15-16is not saying that the non-believer will not have eternal life. There will be people in hell. Eternal Torment, means eternally tormented.,. indicating alive in some form of punishment, usually equated with a compartment in hell.

 

[legion]

Let us consider the logic applied here. In the limited number of Hebrew root-words we have knowledge and understanding of, there are none that can be translated as "immortal soul", therefore the concept did not exist. Now there are known Hebraic terms that we are not certain just how to translate, and there are terms that seem to imply immortal souls among other terms in related languages that do not have clear parallels in the Hebrew that we possess. Now there are scattered phrases that could imply eternal life for human souls, but since they do not clearly state it, they cannot be referencing it.

Do I have it right? And you see any possible errors in your logic, such as "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever"?

Just jumping in here for what it worth... The Sadducees do not believe in a resurrection, but the pharisees did. The New Covenant is in Greek and Greek does have terms for immortal soul.

 

[Cameron143]

Just jumping in here for what it worth... The Sadducees do not believe in a resurrection, but the pharisees did. The New Covenant is in Greek and Greek does have terms for immortal soul.

That's why they were Sad-u-see!

 

[legion]

I believe that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected in an eternal form. [Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.] Here is why...

Biblical language supports eternal conscious punishment: The Greek words for “death” (thanatos) and “destruction” (apollymi) mean separation and ruin throughout Scripture, never cessation or annihilation.

Jesus explicitly taught degrees of punishment in hell: This requires conscious experience. You cannot have “more tolerable” or “less tolerable” nonexistence. Degrees only make sense with consciousness.

The “second death” proves continued existence: If death meant cessation, there would be no need for a “second” death. The term only makes sense if both deaths follow the same pattern: separation, not annihilation.

Historical Christianity unanimously affirmed eternal punishment: From the church fathers closest to the apostles through the Reformers to modern confessions, the traditional view has been held across all major Christian traditions for 2,000 years.

The stakes are infinite: The difference between eternal punishment vs annihilation isn’t just theological. It fundamentally changes evangelistic urgency. If hell is eternal conscious torment, the difference between saved and lost is literally infinite.

The Bible uses several distinct terms our English Bibles translate as “hell”:

Sheol (Hebrew):The general realm of the dead. “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay” (Psalm 16:10). The Hebrew word Strong’s H7585 consistently refers to the place of the dead with conscious existence.

Hades (Greek): The Greek equivalent of Sheol. “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom” (Luke 16:23, NASB). Historical understanding shows both Jewish and early Christian concepts of the afterlife included conscious intermediate states.

Gehenna (Greek): Referring to the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem. “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43).

Lake of Fire: The final destination in Rev.. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14).

Ancient Hebrew concepts of death and the afterlife reveal crucial truths about conscious existence after death.

The Hebrew Concept of Sheol
The word Sheol appears 65 times in the Old Testament Hebrew text, consistently depicting a realm where the dead continue in conscious existence.
Psalm 49:15 shows distinction: “But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me” . The contrast isn’t existence versus nonexistence, but remaining in Sheol versus being received into God’s presence.
Isaiah 14:9-11 depicts Sheol containing conscious beings: “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead… They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we'” . This depicts conscious beings who speak, recognize others, and remember their former state.

Additional Old Testament Evidence

Job 26:5-6 provides insight: “The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants. Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering” . The departed spirits “tremble” in Sheol, demonstrating conscious awareness.
Proverbs 9:18 states, “But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of Sheol” . The “dead are there” as conscious “guests,” not as nonexistent beings.

Progressive Revelation and 1st century Context

Between the Old Testament close (approximately 400 BC) and the New Testament era, Jewish theology developed clearer understanding of afterlife states. This wasn’t contradiction but clarification through progressive revelation.
By Jesus’s time, most Jews (except Sadducees) believed in conscious afterlife, resurrection, and differentiated eternal destinies. The Pharisees, representing majority religious influence, firmly taught bodily resurrection and eternal judgment. Acts 23:8 summarizes: “For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all” .
When Jesus affirmed resurrection and eternal judgment, He sided with Pharisaic theology against Sadducean naturalism, providing authoritative confirmation.

Gehenna’s Significance

The Greek word “Gehenna” derives from Hebrew “Ge Hinnom,” the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. This valley carried dark historical significance that every 1st century Jew would have immediately recognized.
During Israel’s apostasy, some kings practiced child sacrifice there to pagan gods, particularly Molech (2 Kings 23:10, Jeremiah 7:31, 32:35). King Josiah desecrated the site during his reforms (2 Kings 23:10), turning it into a place forever associated with judgment and divine wrath.
By Jesus’s time, Gehenna served as shorthand for God’s final judgment. When Jesus warned about being cast into Gehenna, His audience understood this meant eternal separation from God in the place of divine judgment, not merely a physical valley.

Old Testament Resurrection Texts

Daniel 12:2: “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt”.
The same Hebrew word (olam) describes both destinies. “Everlasting contempt” requires an object. You can’t hold in contempt something that doesn’t exist.
Isaiah 66:24: “For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched” (NASB). Jesus quotes this in Mark 9:48, connecting Old and New Testament teaching.

The Meaning of “Death” and “Destruction”

The heart of the linguistic debate centers on two Greek words: thanatos (death) and apollymi (destruction). Annihilationists argue these words prove cessation of existence. However, examining how Scripture uses these terms reveals a consistent pattern of separation and ruin, never annihilation.

Thanatos (Death): Separation, Not Cessation

The Greek word thanatos (Strong’s G2288) appears 120 times in the New Testament. Throughout Scripture, death consistently means separation, not cessation.
Paul writes in Ephesians 2:1: “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins” . These people were physically alive but spiritually dead, separated from God. This proves “death” in biblical usage means separation, not nonexistence.
If death meant cessation, Paul’s statement would be nonsensical. You can’t address nonexistent people.
Genesis 2:17 vs. 5:5: God warned Adam he would “surely die” the day he ate forbidden fruit. Yet Adam lived 930 years physically. What died that day? His spiritual relationship with God. Separation occurred immediately. Physical death came later.
Matthew 22:31-32: Jesus argues Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “living” though physically dead centuries earlier, using present tense: “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” . Jesus adds: “He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (NASB). Death didn’t end their existence.

Scripture reveals three types of death (none meaning cessation):

Physical death: Separation of soul from body (James 2:26)
Spiritual death: Separation of person from God (Ephesians 2:1)
Eternal death: Permanent separation from God after judgment (Revelation 20:6, 14)
Physical death separates soul from body. Spiritual death separates humans from God. The “second death” (Revelation 20:14) logically follows this pattern: eternal separation from God, not cessation.

Apollymi (Destruction): Ruin, Not Annihilation

The Greek word apollymi (Strong’s G622) is translated “destroy,” “perish,” or “lose” throughout the New Testament. Examining its usage demonstrates it consistently means ruin or loss, never annihilation.
Luke 15:4: “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?” . “Lost” is apollymi. The sheep wasn’t annihilated, it was separated from the shepherd. The shepherd can find it precisely because it still exists.
Luke 15:24: “For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found” (NASB). Again, apollymi describes the son’s state. He existed throughout his “lost” state. The father could welcome him back because he continued to exist, though ruined and separated.
Luke 19:10: Jesus declares: “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (NASB). If apollymi meant “ceased to exist,” Jesus came to save people who don’t exist, an obvious impossibility.
Matthew 9:17: “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined” . The word “ruined” is apollymi. The wineskins still exist, they’re just destroyed in terms of their purpose and usefulness. This is destruction as functional ruin, not annihilation.
Matthew 10:28: “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” . Consistent with apollymi’s usage elsewhere, this means God can bring both to complete ruin in Gehenna. The phrase “in hell” indicates location where destruction occurs, suggesting ongoing state rather than instant cessation.
Revelation 17-20 connection: The beast goes to “destruction” in 17:8, 11. But 20:10 clarifies this means the lake of fire where beings are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Scripture itself defines “destruction” as eternal conscious torment.

full article : https://christianwakeupcall.com/articles/theology/eternal-punishment-vs-annihilation-bible/

 

[TMS]

this whole premise is ridiculous... if I am not going to face eternal punishment, and only be annihilated out of existence then why would I give up all the sinful pleasures as there is nothing to fear... I will be annihilated

There is a judgement to fear. And also much to loss.