Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

[lrs68]

There's a half a dozen Doctrines about how one becomes saved. Another half a dozen Doctrines about whether or not your salvation is permanent or can be lost.

But it really doesn't matter how it happens because if you don't have a personal one on one relationship with God He will say that He never knew you. And that is not God forcing the relationship that is you making the decision to know God on a personal level outside of the common Biblical knowledge.

 

[biblestudent78]

“major point often misunderstood.
Do not confuse "EVIL" to mean "sin."
Adam did not eat from the Tree of Good and Sin.
He ate from Good and Evil.”

yeah sin is when you reject the good and do the evil action described by the law which defines sin . Evil is the motivation for the sinful action. It’s never God or good pressing and pulling us to sin.

The whole issue is we were made for the good and truth and not for the conflicted knowledge of good and evil . That’s why it was forbidden were made to heed and listen and learn from God and trust and obey him . Not meant to decide between good and evil , but to accept and follow gods word .

What Adam did made us like this
God had forbidden them to partake of the good and evil because he knew it would cause this state within us

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. ( we sinners might want to always do good but we can’t figure out how to actually do it always because …) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.( Adam caused this conflict of good and evil within man this is what a sinner is like inside )

….. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18-21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The knowledge of good and evil is the reason mankind sins at all and why god had forbidden it to begin with. We were created to listen to and follow after his word trusting him . Having the knowledge of good and evil within us means we now are constantly conflicted between and pulled between good and evil .

when we choose to serve sin we’re serving the evil that is behind the temptation to commit the sin based upon the law of sin created by the forbidden knowledge of good and evil within us


man isn’t made to decide for ourselves and be pulled between good and evil , that’s fallen man’s state. A state of being ruled by sin. Man was created to dwell with and trust God and simply whatever he told us was true we’re meant to just hear it and believe and act upon it but now we have a constant struggle between good and evil . Sinful action is motivated by the knowledge of evil within us.



“Jesus died for the sins of the world.”Jesus could not die for evil.”

So you’re saying sin isn’t evil ? I’m not really understanding your point .

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”( knowledge of evil )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thses people who were constantly imagining and doing evil were all sinning against God. Jesus died to remove the death sentance required for thier sins. I’m not understanding your point at all
“Those who follow EVIL will reject the message of salvation.”

We’ve all who have lived long at all have followed evil at some point is my position. And that’s why Jesus had to come teaching the true knowledge of God rather than the good and evil knowledge the law describes.

just as it’s always been there’s still a conflict for Christian’s and we’re instructed

“Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This however is not for a non believer but only for those who believe the gospel. Then they are empowered ( see Roman’s chapter 6 ) to overcome the temptations of evil and the dominion of sin over them because it’s rooted within thier minds and hearts through the forbidden knowledge

A difference without a distinction. While all sin is considered evil because it opposes God’s nature, the New Testament suggests degrees of severity. For instance, Jesus mentions "greater sins", and writers like John distinguish between "sin that leads to death" and sin that does not. This implies that while every sin is a moral evil, some acts are more "evil" in their consequences or malicious intent than others. Sins are usually thought of as moral failure. Evil in intended moral failure. ie choosing to commit sins that potentially or actually negatively impact others. When slavery considered "evil" because it led to the abuse of God's Children.

 

[Genez]

He saved (preserved) some of his dinner for supper.
He saved (rescued) the drowning girl from the river .
She saved (deposited for safe-keeping) money in the bank.
She saved (revived) the patient using CPR.

To save: to preserve someone or something from loss; or to deliver someone or something from a loss.

Salvation: preservation from or deliverance from loss.

Would these definitions apply to sOzein (to save) and sOtEria (salvation) everywhere they occur in scripture?

Does the word inherently imply that the preservation or deliverance must be permanent for it to be a true preservation or deliverance?

Why are you using what amounts to code words for most people?
Sozo means salvation.

So you learned a Greek word. Nice.

Do you think others are impressed?
Only you are. With yourself.

Unless you define it every time you use it?
You will lose people, not save them.

Stop it.

 

[Aaron56]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Some salvations are. Some are not.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In your dogma then the status of justified is not a present reality for the believer which makes no sense to be honest, along with the fact that all the blessings which flow from the status of justified are not real either.

In my view the truth sets you free, people who deny eternal security (justified/declared in right standing) based wholly on the work of Christ Jesus deny themselves a deeper, richer understanding and walk with the Lord not based on fear but love and service.

But Jesus and the apostles also preached a lot of dire warnings consistently in thier doctrine to any believer who would listen . Those things aren’t meant to be removed but accepted alongside the rest

If you look it’s always been Gods design grace and instruction first and a resulting promise of the person responds in faith. If we hear and believe him we will respond faithfully

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Some salvations are. Some are not.

How about everlasting life which is salvation from death ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.

” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

If a person receives eternal life at the judgement of God ….. are they saved ? And what salvation other could they have ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A difference without a distinction. While all sin is considered evil because it opposes God’s nature, the New Testament suggests degrees of severity. For instance, Jesus mentions "greater sins", and writers like John distinguish between "sin that leads to death" and sin that does not. This implies that while every sin is a moral evil, some acts are more "evil" in their consequences or malicious intent than others. Sins are usually thought of as moral failure. Evil in intended moral failure. ie choosing to commit sins that potentially or actually negatively impact others. When slavery considered "evil" because it led to the abuse of God's Children.

That’s a well though and presented statement thanks

does this have any impact on the argument ?

hypothetically ,,,,, If we just were to say “ sin is sin “ for a moment and then we applied this as a belief that we actually believed and followed

“If we confess our sins, ( what we’re told to do )


he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ( what he promises to do for us )

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So if for the sake of argument we were to say okay “ of course it’s worse to murder than to tell a little white lie “
But it looks like liars and murderers are both receiving the lake of fire and second death


BUT Christian’s could believe and live life this way …..

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬



we sometimes act like when we do sin and realize we have done something wrong . We pretend it’s no biggy and we don’t actually care that we sinned we use the argument “ I shouldn’t feel guilty for what I did because Jesus died to forgive me already for it “ or some similar reasoning but that’s not the message in truth.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

liars don’t seem as bad as murderers or even adulterers and whoremongers but it looks like they all share the same fate

what if they had the promises of Christ though ? How he promised to faithfully forgive and restore and cleanse the believers who follow his word ? And recognize and confess our sins whether a lie or a theft or even an I’ll timed insult slung in anger or that time we spread that rumor or slandered someone or bore false witness or cheated someone on a deal ect ect ect

In other words we should know and feel when we’ve done something wrong or something isn’t right in our walk with God . If we can sin freely without guilt and the feeling of conviction we aren’t very in tune with Gods word or his spirit . If it bothers us enough to pray sincerely about it we’re probably on the right path of repentance


repentance is ongoing and part of it is when we slip up we have to be sincere and real about what we did even looking into why we did it to snuff out any motives that are causing an issue .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for the question .. I will come back to it.. my garden needs tending.

When my hands still worked , gardening was one of my favorite activities !! God bless those veggies and or flowers perennials or otherwise

 

[GWH]

In your dogma then the status of justified is not a present reality for the believer which makes no sense to be honest, along with the fact that all the blessings which flow from the status of justified are not real either.

In my view the truth sets you free, people who deny eternal security (justified/declared in right standing) based wholly on the work of Christ Jesus deny themselves a deeper, richer understanding and walk with the Lord not based on fear but love and service.

What makes no sense is how what you said replies to the 16 Scriptures I posted.
If you decide to discuss them, please post me again.

 

[JohnDB]

I like that...

"Just because you desire to be wrong doesn't mean that I have to correct you."​

​

.​

I felt inspired when I typed this....like it's so close to a palladrome of some sort.

 

[GWH]

A difference without a distinction. While all sin is considered evil because it opposes God’s nature, the New Testament suggests degrees of severity. For instance, Jesus mentions "greater sins", and writers like John distinguish between "sin that leads to death" and sin that does not. This implies that while every sin is a moral evil, some acts are more "evil" in their consequences or malicious intent than others. Sins are usually thought of as moral failure. Evil in intended moral failure. ie choosing to commit sins that potentially or actually negatively impact others. When slavery considered "evil" because it led to the abuse of God's Children.

You raise a significant issue. Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1CR 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Apparently, although a new Christian might commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example.

 

[Karlon]

Thus 21st century Christianity is sin all you want but only after you claim to "believe" God's love and sacrifice thus you are "are saved". We have a Holy Get Out Of Hell Card for nodding our head to a 60 second pulpit prayer. There is no need to be converted. No need for life change. No need for taking up your own cross. How convenient.

& we know that's not Christianity!

 

[Karlon]

I too am a great fan of John. For instance: The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God. Thus John says if you have come to the light it is plainly evident by your deeds. If you claim to come to the light but your deeds are exactly equal to those who have no knowledge of Christ, then you have "not come to the light."

19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God. No matter what you "claim" if your life does not practice the truth where it is clearly seen by others, you are not part of the light.

a detailed explanation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Why are you using what amounts to code words for most people?
Sozo means salvation.

So you learned a Greek word. Nice.

Do you think others are impressed?
Only you are. With yourself.

Unless you define it every time you use it?
You will lose people, not save them.

Stop it.

sOzO means “I am saving". sOtEria means “salvation".

If people are spending time arguing about whether biblical “salvation" is instantaneous or permanent, ISTM they should at least be bothered to find our what the words the Holy Spirit used in the original documents actually meant at the time the documents were originally penned. It is unwise ISTM to read back into words in a 2000 year old text meanings that are the end result of 2000 years of theological massaging.

 

[Genez]

sOzO means “I am saving". sOtEria means “salvation".

If people are spending time arguing about whether biblical “salvation" is instantaneous or permanent, ISTM they should at least be bothered to find our what the words the Holy Spirit used in the original documents actually meant at the time the documents were originally penned. It is unwise ISTM to read back into words in a 2000 year old text meanings that are the end result of 2000 years of theological massaging.

Enjoy your cage....

 

[HeIsHere]

What makes no sense is how what you said replies to the 16 Scriptures I posted.
If you decide to discuss them, please post me again.

The point is you did not even apply any hermeneutics on those verses to see if they supported your conclusion, they were just plucked out of context.

Maybe start with one and explain what it means, it is all about the meaning of the passage, right?

 

[HeIsHere]

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Would you agree that this is a reference to the system of sacrifices of the under the old covenant?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Would you agree that this is a reference to the system of sacrifices of the under the old covenant?

Not at all no .

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


( this is a comparison ) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:19-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reference to Moses law is a comparison sayong under Moses law the people were punished for every transgression … how much worse should the punishment. Be when we make Jesus sacrifice unholy by serving sin continually and willfully we’re doing despite towards his grace ect

its definately speaking to those believers it’s been discussing like here earlier in the chapter

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now look at the warning

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

( He refers to Moses law for a comparison as he’s been doing through the book then back to what he’s saying )

“how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

 

[GWH]

The point is you did not even apply any hermeneutics on those verses to see if they supported your conclusion, they were just plucked out of context.

Maybe start with one and explain what it means, it is all about the meaning of the passage, right?

Okay. Here is my explanation of the first of the 16 passages:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Jesus gave instructions to the Twelve before sending them to witness (Matt. 10:5). He warned that they might be arrested and prosecuted for sharing His teachings. (Matt. 10:17-18). He said not to be afraid of those who may kill the body but cannot destroy the soul (Matt. 10:26-28a). Instead, fear God who can destroy souls in hell and acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, because whoever does so until the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22, 28b & 32-33).

Right?
Over...

 

[faithhopecharity101]

Really? "But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—" John 1:12

"Him" in this passage is Jesus. I was born again by accepting Christ. I knew nothing about the Holy Spirit. He was called the Holy Ghost in those days. I knew something about ghosts and they for sure were not holy. So I was confused. It took me a while to understand.

Also, "Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name (Jesus) under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12​

no man is born again without baptism!

mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

the laver of regeneration

thks