Loss of salvation???

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But growing in grace surely cannot mean that we grow or increase grace. As I said, grace is God's underserved favour. I would see most of the verses you quoted as being linked to what I quoted from Ephesians 2 about us being saved by grace for works. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply.
we need the grace of perseverance every day and fresh graces every day

how do we get them?

mt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

apart from Christ?

NOTHING!

phil 4:13

Union with Christ?

ALL THINGS!


thks
 
why was this man lost? mt 25:24-30

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

thks
He showed by his actions (or lack of action) that he was not a represenative of a saved person As Paul says to the Ephesian Christians:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 
we need the grace of perseverance every day and fresh graces every day

how do we get them?

mt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

apart from Christ?

NOTHING!

phil 4:13

Union with Christ?

ALL THINGS!


thks
Perseverance, and the grace we need every day, comes from God. We don't grow grace by our good works. Rather, we need God's grace to be able to do good works. If grace came through works, it wouldn't be grace.
 
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Perseverance, and the grace we need every day, comes from God. We don't grow grace by our good works. Rather, we need God's grace to be able to do good works. If grace came through works, it wouldn't be grace.
I like what you said. I remember the best definition of what God's grace is I ever heard by a well-known speaker in the body of Christ. He said; "Grace is the smeared on, Applied presence of God Almighty for you to perform a function or task. You need a grace to be whatever you are be it a parent, a student, a police officer, a grocery checker, a firefighter, whatever it is, God grants you a little bit of Himself to empower you to function."
 
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Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!
This is a loaded question and one that has been hotly disputed for a great many years. I had family members who believed in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine. The bible teaches that the ONLY unpardonable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Not to be confused with also the point at which someone can backslide and ignore the Holy Spirit, to where God hands you over to the Devil to be disciplined. I've heard pastors weep because they had to "turn someone out.". That's never a good day at all. There's also the idea that if someone completely "falls away," then they probably were never truly "saved" to begin with. I feel that it is never worth the point of argument for argument's sake. Rather the point being to do whatever we can to restore our brothers and sisters, or work to see them restored back when they do stray. I am so grateful for that from my dear brothers and sisters in Christ who came after me when I ran away from the faith and came back. God fully restored me. It all comes back to the LOVE we have for one another in Christ. It is never for the "pointing of the finger." or fault finding. The world sees that and uses it to keep away from us.
 
He showed by his actions (or lack of action) that he was not a represenative of a saved person As Paul says to the Ephesian Christians:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
eph 2 refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us and our works.

there are many parts in the process of salvation any one can be called salvation

is the virtue of patience a work?

why the need of patience & not faith alone?

Lk 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.

Romans 5:3-5

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Timothy 3:10
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Titus 2:2
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

James 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

2 Peter 1:6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (rev 12:17)

thks
 
Perseverance, and the grace we need every day, comes from God. We don't grow grace by our good works. Rather, we need God's grace to be able to do good works. If grace came through works, it wouldn't be grace.
you confuse the initial grace which we cannot earn with an increase of grace that we already have and can increase!

Holy Apostolic council of Trent: with the teaching authority of Jesus Christ! Binding all Christians Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21


Justification:

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

CANON 26 If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well [Page 48] doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Amen?
 
Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation?
No because Salvation is by Grace a work of Christ that cant be undone Ecc 3:14

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
you confuse the initial grace which we cannot earn with an increase of grace that we already have and can increase!
God must give grace throughout the believers life to preserve them from scandalous sins
 
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No because Salvation is by Grace a work of Christ that cant be undone Ecc 3:14

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

God must give grace throughout the believers life to preserve them from scandalous sins

(((Union)))

By the grace of justification received by faith and baptism we have union with God thru Christ, in the communion of saints, empowered by grace and life in the spirit to attain to eternal salvation on glory!

1) we do not have eternal salvation

Mk 10:30 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 rev 2:10

2) we have the grace of justification

3) grace can be increased by good works

mt 7:7 mt 7:14 mt 26:41
2 pet 3:18

4) grace can be lost by deadly sin

Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
2 cor 4:7
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1

thks
 
eph 2 refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us and our works.

there are many parts in the process of salvation any one can be called salvation

is the virtue of patience a work?

why the need of patience & not faith alone?

Lk 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.

Romans 5:3-5

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Timothy 3:10
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Titus 2:2
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

James 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

2 Peter 1:6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (rev 12:17)

thks
Thanks for replying. Yes, patience is important for the Christian, but the verses that you quote which include the word "patience" refer to people who are already Christians. I cannot think of any bible verse that tells us that patience is needed in order to be saved, to become a Christian. Thanks again.
 
you confuse the initial grace which we cannot earn with an increase of grace that we already have and can increase!

Holy Apostolic council of Trent: with the teaching authority of Jesus Christ! Binding all Christians Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21


Justification:

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

CANON 26 If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well [Page 48] doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Amen?
I wonder if you define grace in the same way that I do - God's undeserved favour. If grace indeed is God's undeserved favour, then He is the only One Who can increase it. As for people who believe, as I do, that we are saved by God's grace alone being anathema according to the Council of Trent, I would rather believe God's word, which makes clear that we are indeed saved by grace:

(Eph 1:6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

(Eph 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.

(Tit 3:7) that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

`Thanks for replying.
 
automatic perseverance?

thks
Not automatic, in the sense of God making us robots. Living the Christian life involves effort, not sitting back and saying to ourselves, "Well, God has promised that we shall persevere, so we don't need to do anything." We only have to think of the way Paul refers to the Christian's life as a race and a fight. Rather than automatic, I would say that perseverance is guaranteed by God.
 
you confuse the initial grace which we cannot earn with an increase of grace that we already have and can increase!

Holy Apostolic council of Trent: with the teaching authority of Jesus Christ! Binding all Christians Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21


Justification:

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

CANON 26 If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well [Page 48] doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Amen?
God ensures persevering grace for all his covenant children He saves Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jer 32:40


And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
 
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Thanks for replying. Yes, patience is important for the Christian, but the verses that you quote which include the word "patience" refer to people who are already Christians. I cannot think of any bible verse that tells us that patience is needed in order to be saved, to become a Christian. Thanks again.
we become christians in justification not eternal salvation

we must persevere to the end and be judged to enter into eternal salvation

thks
 
we become christians in justification not eternal salvation

we must persevere to the end and be judged to enter into eternal salvation

thks
If by our own efforts we had to persevere in order to be saved eternally, why was Jesus able to say:

(Joh 6:47 NKJV) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Yes, we must persevere, but thankfully God enables us to do so:

(Php 1:6) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
 
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I wonder if you define grace in the same way that I do - God's undeserved favour. If grace indeed is God's undeserved favour, then He is the only One Who can increase it. As for people who believe, as I do, that we are saved by God's grace alone being anathema according to the Council of Trent, I would rather believe God's word, which makes clear that we are indeed saved by grace:

(Eph 1:6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

(Eph 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.

(Tit 3:7) that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

`Thanks for replying.
none say or refer to eternal salvation but part of the process of salvation

we still require perseverance!

we must participate
we must pray (works) for God grace to persevere
mt 26:21

thks

btw apostolic councils are binding on all christians mt. 16:18-19 eph 5:24 mt 28:20
 
Not automatic, in the sense of God making us robots. Living the Christian life involves effort, not sitting back and saying to ourselves, "Well, God has promised that we shall persevere, so we don't need to do anything." We only have to think of the way Paul refers to the Christian's life as a race and a fight. Rather than automatic, I would say that perseverance is guaranteed by God.
Paul don't think so!

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

we still have a fallen human nature and are oriented towards sin, but
God provides a remedy for sin in this life, suffering!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

mt 7:7 ask

mt 26:41 watch and pray to avoid sin and temptation

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life...

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

thks
 
God ensures persevering grace for all his covenant children He saves Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jer 32:40


And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
sin is still possible or there would be no warnings against it!

(( will never inherit the kingdom of God or attain to eternal salvation ))

mt 25:30
Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27

rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(what if they walk after the flesh?)


Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

thks