Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[pinebeach]

You mean the Gospel

It's not a good thing to try and change what people say. But then you manage to change what the Bible say, so...

 

[JohnDB]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:5-6, NRSV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:8-10, NRSV)

“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29, NRSV)

“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

“You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)

So you ate taking the position that Humans are essentially robots going through pre-programmed movements.

That's not gonna sell well....

Also means that Jesus really didn't need to die a humiliating death.....that effort was a waste....

So the entire premise of God being omnipotent and perfectly efficient is dead....which means God lost his sovereignty....and the whole God thing is undone.

Nahhhhhhh......I don't but it.

 

[pinebeach]

This calls for a joke. Perhaps you have heard this one.

Two lines form at the entrance to heaven.One sign says: “Stand here if you believed in free will.” The other says: “Stand here if you believed in predestination.”

A man walks up, confused, and asks the angel, “Which line should I be in?”The angel says, “You go in the predestination line.”The man protests, “But I chose the free‑will line!”The angel replies, “Exactly.”

It works because the punchline flips the categories: the man’s choice is overridden by the angel’s assignment, which is exactly the kind of paradox people feel when they try to reconcile human agency with divine sovereignty.

I thought this one was cute

 

[rogerg]

Both OT and NT salvation were via faith per Rom. 4, which I knew you would refuse to acknowledge and not want to discuss,
but I posted for the benefit of those who appreciate Scriptures teaching GRFS.
It is interesting/ironic that you posted a verse (Hos. 6:7) teaching the necessary condition of saving faith for salvation.
Thanks; I will add it to the list.

Wrong. Hos 6:7 refers to the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. I included that it is the OC in my post but apparently, you either didn't understand, chose to ignore or didn't read. There were many prerequisites and stipulations for salvation required by the Old Covenant. However, God brought forth the New Covenant because He knew that man would never be able to satisfy them, so in His exceedingly great mercy and grace, He obtained it through Jesus Christ, the Savior and apart from any of man's actions, gives it to His chosen through Christ as a completely free gift. Those who become saved, become so, through the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant - I thought you already knew that. I think your problem is that you either don't know what a Savior is or don't believe that Christ is that Savior, which? Has to be either one or the other.
Regarding Rom 4, you didn't include any verses, so I do not know which you are referring to and I don't feel like guessing. But salvation is through the faith of Christ. Man's faith plays no part in it whatsoever - Christ is the Savior, man is not.

 

[pinebeach]

I should have said that I agree with your question about ignoring human choice. We shouldn't ignore those passages and the true Biblical understanding of God's sovereignty regards human choice as reality.

I don't know if you have ever had this experience, but last night, before I shut off my computer, I thought about something that I wanted to say to you, and in my haste, I kept it too brief. Sorry about that.

I simply wanted to add another data point to our understanding of human choice and how God can work through human choice to accomplish his will. I know that a lot more can be said about that.

There are a few more cases of Asymmetrical Agency we can explore. For instance,

Philippians 2:12–13

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.​

This is Paul’s clearest statement of the paradox I'm pointing to: our working is grounded in God’s working. The command (“work out your salvation”) rests on the cause (“because God is at work in you”). Just as in the Genesis passage, Paul describes two causes for the same action: man is working out his own salvation because God is at work in him. I called this Asymmetrical Agency because God is the primary mover.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you.

No I'm not confused and I think you made some good observations in this post.

Actually, that story of Joseph puts me in mind of Romans 8:28

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose.

The use of the word paradox is appropriate IMO, leaving a kind of open ended conclusion that we cannot really make because it is paradoxical.

I appreciate the exchange. People got on my case because I have left and come back but the way they post is exactly why I have done that. The exchange of ideas is how threads would benefit. There have been numerous threads on this thread topic and a few Calvinists were actually banned because they were so nasty to those who disagree with their TULIP worship. That was a couple of yrs back I think.

 

[pinebeach]

They were not chosen out of Him (as an unbeliever), but in Him.

Good point

 

[pinebeach]

I cannot fathom how a person can apply this verse

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. II Cor. 4:4

to believers who do not conform to Calvinism. This is telling people they are not saved from a position they accept, apparently with a desire to condemn all who do not believe just like they do. No exchange of ideas or actual scripture with any room for examining the possibility that both Calvinists and those who are not, are actually in Christ and seen as righteous in Christ by God who judges righteously and knows all our hearts.

To further illustrate the belief they are 'helping' God judge others, the comment attached to that verse shows a very bad understanding of why a forum in a Christian setting, is not for their personal condemnation of others. If this is what a person actually sees in others, I don't think there is any way that any scripture taken in context can be applied to their reasoning.

That verse pertains to the unsaved. It does not pertain to those who believe in Christ, have been baptized to identify with Him and appear in this forum and are perfectly allowed to disagree. Disagreement is not the problem. Condemnation and misapplicaton of scripture is the problem.

 

[rogerg]

I cannot fathom how a person can apply this verse

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. II Cor. 4:4

because they do not believe that Christ alone is the Savior. That He is Savior, is the gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert in biblical Greek, but according to my translation (KJV), it shows it as a non-definite article but I'm open to learning. "the faith" would be a reasonable translation to me, but for it to mean man's faith would not be.

Yeah its in the greek translation

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Faith πίστις is here preceded by the definite article τῆς that can be read :through The Faith"

AI:

, the Greek definite article is a highly versatile tool used by writers to emphasize identity, point back to a previous concept, or turn ordinary words into titles

Now since its genitive of source, Noun Faith finds its source from Noun Person Place or thing. We know the source isn't from the one being saved. Christ may be the source [person] maybe Grace or maybe the doctrine of Faith. we know its a definite source outside of the sinner. BTW Im no greek expert, had some courses in bible college and seminary many years ago.

 

[pinebeach]

because they do not believe that Christ alone is the Savior. That He is Savior, is the gospel.

That makes about as much sense as.....actually it does not make sense.

I have maintained throughout this thread and in fact the entire forum, that Christ alone is the Savior. whatever

I specifically said that verse applies to non believers and my point being why does it seem to be applied to those who disagree with Calvinism? I'm just gonna let you have a snooze regarding your replies which will be in context with the effort you put into them

 

[rogerg]

That verse pertains to the unsaved. It does not pertain to those who believe in Christ,

If someone doesn't believe in Christ as Savior, and as Savior, the one who alone and completely gives salvation, then they don't actually believe in Christ. Should they that believe they can become saved based upon their own actions or choices, then their belief is actually in themselves and not in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

The actual theological definition of election means chosen to a privilege position. Israel were chosen as God's special people, not to salvation. And here God chose Jacob over Esau through whom He would carry on the covenant.

Thats what false teachers have come up with to deny Election Salvation

 

[rogerg]

That makes about as much sense as.....actually it does not make sense.

I have maintained throughout this thread and in fact the entire forum, that Christ alone is the Savior. whatever

I specifically said that verse applies to non believers and my point being why does it seem to be applied to those who disagree with Calvinism? I'm just gonna let you have a snooze regarding your replies which will be in context with the effort you put into them

Not if you think something, anything, outside of Christ is necessary for salvation, including the faith of those whom He saves

 

[brightfame52]

I have maintained throughout this thread and in fact the entire forum, that Christ alone is the Savior. whatever

lol People always say that. Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, SDA and another thousand little religions

 

[brightfame52]

It's not a good thing to try and change what people say.

What do you mean ? I said it, Tulip is the Gospel

 

[rogerg]

Yeah its in the greek translation

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Faith πίστις is here preceded by the definite article τῆς that can be read :through The Faith"

AI:

, the Greek definite article is a highly versatile tool used by writers to emphasize identity, point back to a previous concept, or turn ordinary words into titles

Now since its genitive of source, Noun Faith finds its source from Noun Person Place or thing. We know the source isn't from the one being saved. Christ may be the source [person] maybe Grace or maybe the doctrine of Faith. we know its a definite source outside of the sinner. BTW Im no greek expert, had some courses in bible college and seminary many years ago.

Okay, makes sense to me. That it isn't the faith of the person to be saved, and that it somehow originated from Christ, is the pivotal point of the verse in my opinion. Although, and probably not directly related to the verse, I believe that the faith of Christ - Christ faith - was manifested in/by His allegiance to the Father and in His mission, and by which was salvation brought forth to fruition.

 

[pinebeach]

lol People always say that. Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, SDA and another thousand little religions

Well you seem to know which group best suits you. Listen, I'm putting you a little snooze too because your comments are generated to create an arguement rather than an actual discussion. Perhaps you could learn something from people who
actually discuss.

 

[brightfame52]

. Although, and probably not directly related to the verse, I believe that the faith of Christ - Christ faith - was manifested in/by His allegiance to the Father and in His mission, and by which was salvation brought forth to fruition.

Thats a good feasible understanding, through the faith or faithfulness of Christ ! A friend of mine interprets like that

 

[brightfame52]

Well you seem to know which group best suits you. Listen, I'm putting you a little snooze too because your comments are generated to create an arguement rather than an actual discussion. Perhaps you could learn something from people who
actually discuss.

I may learn from some people.

 

[rogerg]

Yeah its in the greek translation

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Faith πίστις is here preceded by the definite article τῆς that can be read :through The Faith"

AI:

, the Greek definite article is a highly versatile tool used by writers to emphasize identity, point back to a previous concept, or turn ordinary words into titles

Now since its genitive of source, Noun Faith finds its source from Noun Person Place or thing. We know the source isn't from the one being saved. Christ may be the source [person] maybe Grace or maybe the doctrine of Faith. we know its a definite source outside of the sinner. BTW Im no greek expert, had some courses in bible college and seminary many years ago.

I will ponder Eph 2:8 further just to make sure it makes sense to me from all angles - thanks for the explanation.