Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[Roger316]

You do understand that verses need to be understood in context right along with using following the grammatical sentence structure/verbiage so that it is understood how the writer intended it to be understood?

Yes, I do. And I realize the danger inherent in quoting verses out of context.

At the same time, the phrases I highlighted with italics are clear enough to answer your question.

 

[Roger316]

This verse alone destroys the concept of regeneration before the cross along with Total depravity.


Hebrews 9:15
For this reason, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the FIRST covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. And the next verse proves that they had to wait for the death of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. [17] For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Without the death of Jesus, there is no regeneration.

Therefore, those who were declared righteous in the old covenant, were declared righteous without ever being regenerated.

Their faith happened without regeneration.

Total depravity is an absolute falsehood created to support a false system.

I don't see regeneration or Total Depravity mentioned in Hebrews 9:15-17

 

[brightfame52]

I was answering the other Member and discussing the Verses he already presented. Therefore, this post is inaccurate from you.

It still wasn't scriptural, and all posts go public and anyone can respond to them

 

[memberofthebride]

Must be awesome to be perfect like you.

one day I will be if I can endure until the end, today I am not,
but I am focused on His will not mine.

night, you made that comment because I am not part of this worlds christianity.
I am at odds with the majority on this site and they rarely agree among themselves.
all I am attempting to do is see if there are a few that the Father will open their mind.
There are some basic truths the Many can't see.
Do you agree with Christ? He said it is The Many He does not know.
I am not part of the many -- that is a fact, I believe you will agree to.

 

[NightTwister]

one day I will be if I can endure until the end, today I am not,
but I am focused on His will not mine.

So you admit that sometimes you do not obey Him.

 

[Roger316]

It still wasn't scriptural, and all posts go public and anyone can respond to them

You still didn't offer scripture to support your claim that is post was false.

 

[memberofthebride]

So you admit that sometimes you do not obey Him.

I am a human being with my human nature still intact and will be over joyed when it is gone.

With out The Father's Spirit in me --- there would have been many problems in my life, I have wondered if i would still be alive. doubtful

Sin is very pleasurable at times and I use to enjoy it alot.

night, do you understand when the spirit is put in a person, at that point both human nature and divine nature is in us and that is a war?

 

[brightfame52]

You still didn't offer scripture to support your claim that is post was false.

The post didnt offer scripture that it was true

 

[rogerg]

You still didn't offer scripture to support your claim that is post was false.

The whole of Rom 9 is about God's salvation plan- it is all one unbroken continuous declaration from start to end - not about the leadership of the nation of Israel. It becomes obvious when the chapter is actually read and understood.

[Rom 9:23-33 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[brightfame52]

The whole of Rom 9 is about God's salvation plan- it is all one unbroken continuation declaration from start to end - not about the leadership of the nation of Israel. It becomes obvious when the chapter is actually read and understood.

[Rom 9:23-33 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Great post but they wont believe a word of it. Its like you didnt type one word

 

[rogerg]

Great post but they wont believe a word of it. Its like you didnt type one word

Thanks, and yeah, I know, because if they were able to understand it, they already would have understood it, but like you say, it's
like it isn't even there.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

The ones who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness do not "see the message of the cross as foolishness"​

Thats all of us as natural men 1 Cor 2:14. the Gospel is spiritually hidden to the Lost and they will spiritually believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

yeah ... you believe the god of this world (satan) is more powerful than the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.

In your understanding satan is so much more powerful than God ... smh.

The gospel is the power of God to only one group of people, the saved 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross/gospel is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

In the original saved has the definite article, specifying definitly to whom it is the Cross is the power of God to !

below are Greek texts copied from Bible Hub ... please point out "the definite article" before the word "saved" [Greek = σῳζομένοις (sōzomenois), which means "being saved"] ... thanks.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Nestle 1904

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστίν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστίν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition

ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν​

1 Corinthians 1:18 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks, and yeah, I know, because if they were able to understand it, they already would have understood it, but like you say, it's
like it isn't even there.

Well I appreciated it, and perhaps someone else did but just chooses to remain inactive.

 

[rogerg]

You presented the Verses to begin with and thus being part of chapter 9 I went ahead and showed Paul's entire thought which is his discussion about the Election of the Hebrew peoples and Israel.

See post #449

 

[brightfame52]

yeah ... you believe the god of this world (satan) is more powerful than the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.

Paul establishes total depravity in Rom 1:18 -Rom 3:20 1 st the Gentile world, then the religious jews and then everyone, he is setting the ground work for why all salvation is by grace. So both you and I are being described in Rom 1:18 ff, dont think you less sinful than they.

below are Greek texts copied from Bible Hub .

Im familiar

 

[NightTwister]

I am a human being with my human nature still intact and will be over joyed when it is gone.

With out The Father's Spirit in me --- there would have been many problems in my life, I have wondered if i would still be alive. doubtful

Sin is very pleasurable at times and I use to enjoy it alot.

night, do you understand when the spirit is put in a person, at that point both human nature and divine nature is in us and that is a war?

So what level of obeying Him equates to "enduring to the end?"

 

[GWH]

those that refuse to obey, knowingly, willingly refuse to obey when they get their one opportunity for eternal life Are cast into the Lake of fire and they cease to exist for eternity.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

mercy. no torture for ever, in a split second its over.

but the masses out there, that do not have a clue,, that have been lied to by churches, christian and pagan,
they will all get their one opportunity, some few now and the many later after the 1000 years.

Are you obeying Jesus Christ?? willingly?? or are you exempt because of grace??

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christ is my Master and I obey Him.

If unrepentant sinners in hell cease to exist immediately before justice is attained, God would not be just.

Sinners have an entire lifetime to repent and be saved, unless they become completely calloused before dying.

I already cited relevant Scriptures in post #422.

 

[memberofthebride]

So what level of obeying Him equates to "enduring to the end?"

not sure how to answer.

I will live in this evil world striving to obey until I die or if there is persecution and they take my life or the First resurrection, one way or the other thats the end of this life, the end of having to endure.

I obey the Torah to the degree possible in this world, I follow the wisdom Christ gave us, and I'll give you an example of one I did not follow. I got in a law suit with a client and wanted to prove i was right and went to court. cost me 10's of thousands. later I read when going to court settle on the way -- the judge might put you in jail.
that is one I will always follow from now on,

 

[rogerg]

So what level of obeying Him equates to "enduring to the end?"

And more than that, NightTwister, it seems to me that if someone tries to fulfill the law only to gain some benefit from doing so, they are using obedience for a purpose beyond the law’s true intent. That is a subtle but important distinction. To be sincere and pure, a person must desire to fulfill the law simply for its own sake, not for any advantage that comes from it; otherwise, they fall short.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[Roger316]

The whole of Rom 9 is about God's salvation plan- it is all one unbroken continuous declaration from start to end - not about the leadership of the nation of Israel. It becomes obvious when the chapter is actually read and understood.

[Rom 9:23-33 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It is noteworthy that Paul has finished preaching the Gospel by the end of chapter 5. Beginning in chapter 6, he answers a series of rhetorical questions that address objections to the Gospel his readers will likely face as they return to Rome. Chapter 9 addresses a specific question about God's promise to Israel. We could formulate the question this way. Paul, your gospel can't be true because God promised to circumcise the hearts of all of Israel, and that hasn't taken place.

Short answer:
Paul’s opponents argue, “Your gospel can’t be true, Paul, because God promised to save all Israel — and clearly not all Israelites believe in Jesus.” Paul’s answer cuts deeper than they expect: God’s promise was never grounded in ethnicity but in election. Not all who are descended from Israel belong to the Israel of the promise. God has always defined His people by His own choosing, not by bloodline or national membership. So when God finally saves “all Israel,” it will be the Israel He has chosen, the ones whose hearts He circumcises by His Spirit. The promise stands firm — but it applies to the Israel God creates, not the Israel people assume.