One does not have to read John Calvin to adhere to this system, it is was for a time quite ubiquitous in books, podcast, churches etc.,
Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe
- Thread starter Jon777
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One does not have to read John Calvin to adhere to this system, it is was for a time quite ubiquitous in books, podcast, churches etc.,
I think you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion from my comments. I am not affirming Total Depravity. I do not believe that mankind is so corrupted by sin that he is incapable of believing in God. My point was about the will, not about an absolute inability. Scripture teaches that people resist God because they refuse Him, not because they lack the natural capacity to believe.
Unbelief is not a failure of the mind; it is a refusal of the will.
Scripture teaches that humanity *knew* God but suppressed that truth in order to embrace something else (Romans 1:18–21). The problem is never an inability to recognize truth but an unwillingness to receive it. The unbeliever can genuinely say, “I understand what the gospel claims, and I see who Jesus is — but I will not bow to Him.” The obstacle is not intellectual incapacity but moral resistance. Unbelief is a choice of the will, not a deficiency of evidence.
The Bible teaches that the fundamental human problem is not intellectual but moral. The issue is not that people lack information in the mind, but that they lack inclination in the heart. Scripture speaks of a *new heart*, a *circumcised heart*, a *heart of flesh*, a *heart to know the Lord* — never a new brain. The transformation God promises is a transformation of the will, not the data‑processing center. As Romans 1 shows, humanity *knew* God but **suppressed** that truth. The head saw; the heart refused. Therefore, salvation requires a regenerated heart, not merely a persuaded mind.
No — I’m not affirming the Calvinist order of salvation. I’m saying unbelief is a willful refusal, not an ontological inability. The heart must be transformed in the sense that the will must turn toward God, but that does not require a pre‑salvation ‘activation’ or a two‑stage salvation. I reject the idea that regeneration precedes faith as a separate, non‑saving event.
I really appreciate your openness here. It’s actually refreshing to hear someone say, “I didn’t grow up with these categories, so I went and studied them for myself.” That kind of humility and curiosity is a gift in conversations like this.
What matters most is exactly what you said — holding fast to the gospel of Yeshua. The historical debates (Calvin, Arminius, Augustine, etc.) can help us understand how believers have wrestled with Scripture, but they’re not the center of our faith.
Your willingness to learn, rather than react, is a great example for the rest of us. Thank you for bringing that spirit into the conversation.
The problem for your hypothesis is to demonstrate where this moral inability to respond positively to the Good News is inherent at birth ...... but when scripture speaks about those people who are perishing it is not that they were born that way but in their lives they have made decisions and their hearts became hardened to truth so that they come to the point where they suppress the truth in unrighteous.
You do understand that in ancient cultures the heart of man was the seat of man and it included both the heart and the mind.
In fact, the very word "metanoia" when understood correctly according the Greek language is a turning the mind away from one belief towards another belief.
You read in Romans One everyone is born a truth suppresser when in fact Paul is not asserting anything of the sort and actually quite the opposite.
It does not state everyone is born a truth suppesser... that is being read into the text.
The contrast is those who live by faith to those who REFUSE to believe.
Next!
Non reformed people do not believe people save themselves, but unfortunately that is the false accusation required to protect TULIP.
She in fact responded positively to Christ Jesus, she placed her faith in HIM and He saved her.
Nowhere is it stated He gave her the faith/heart/life to respond positively which is a requirement in your soteriology.
Hopefully you can see from my recent posts that I’m not defending Total Depravity. What I am saying is that Scripture clearly teaches this: the root of unbelief is a refusal to believe what is true, and the remedy is God’s act of transforming the human heart.
This is what makes Romans 9 so profound. When we ask, “Why doesn’t God save everyone?” the usual answer is, “Because not everyone responds positively to the gospel.” But Scripture also shows that God is fully able to soften a person’s heart so that they do respond.
That means the real objection Paul is addressing is deeper:
“If God can change the heart, then why didn’t He soften Israel’s heart so they would embrace the gospel?”
Romans 9 is Paul’s Spirit‑inspired answer to that very question.
You have not made a case that the heart is transformed prior to belief but you are assuming it into the text btw.... along with the fact that God many times tells people to have a change of heart.
They are not interested in truth. Just their opinions.
The passages in Ezekiel and similar texts are answering a different question. Ezekiel is addressing this: What causes people who once stubbornly refused to believe to suddenly believe? What changed? What turns a partially hardened Israel into a fully softened Israel?
His answer is that the decisive cause is God’s own action — the giving of a new heart, the removal of the heart of stone, the circumcision of the heart. Ezekiel is explaining the source of Israel’s future repentance, not the order of salvation in an individual.
But since you are saying that refusal is the only possible response unless one is sanctified first you are in fact making it an inability.
And is noted you have deflected and not responded to my rebuttal of why sanctification cannot precede justification.
Ezekiel 18: 30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
This does nothing to support your doctrine. actually it is the opposite once again.
Ultimately Ezekiel is about Israel and have nothing to do with anyone being regenerated before they believe.
Ezekiel's 2 is part prophecy and is only to and about Israel falling away from God and being scattered among the nations and then God bringing them back physically into their homeland. This occured in 70 AD.
Then Ezekiel says AFTER God brings them back physically into their homeland they will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah and be saved.
Being SAVED is the only way a person can be given a new heart, not some "theory of regeneration before faith " which has been invented.
As well, Hebrews 8:10 VERIFIES Ezekiel's prophecy.
The "new heart" is referring to God's covenant of SALVATION, not some strange "activation before faith theory."
God's covenant is not to regenerate, it is to SAVE. And the only way that a person is saved is through faith in Christ.
As I understand it, we both agree that a transformed heart leads to belief. You deny that all of humanity needs a heart transplant. Some do, some don't. Right?
Undoubtedly, God tells some people to change their hearts, but I wonder if that is even possible. How should we understand these commands?
We are not constitutionally capable of transforming our own hearts. Scripture commands us to *turn*, *repent*, *circumcise our hearts*, and *make ourselves a new heart*, but those commands expose our **responsibility**, not our **ability**. When the Bible speaks of the heart actually being changed — softened, renewed, cleansed, made alive — it always attributes that work to God alone. The human will can refuse or respond, but it cannot regenerate itself.
The Bible makes a sharp distinction between what the human heart is commanded to do and what it is capable of doing. We are told to repent, to turn, to circumcise our hearts — commands that reveal our moral responsibility. But whenever Scripture describes the heart actually being transformed, softened, renewed, or made alive, the subject is always God. Only He can remove the heart of stone, give a heart of flesh, and write His law within. We can choose, resist, or seek, but we cannot **re‑create** ourselves. Heart‑transformation is God’s work, not human self‑engineering.
In my view, not only does God bid me fly, he gives me wings.
The question is still valid. Is God commanding something that is impossible to perform? Can I give myself a new heart and a new spirit? I don't see how that is possible.
I see you were talking with the guy who thinks he is groovy. He is a liar. These people have CDS
and it does not matter what you say, they will just keep coming after you for your Biblical beliefs
which oppose their opinions. I tell the truth about them out of my love and respect for the Word
of God. Their love of the Word stops at their opinions. Like with heishere? She does not believe
God is required in the process of coming to believe at all. Scripture says, the world cannot receive
the spirit of truth. Her view is, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit
to or obey God. Her view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things
of God. She says he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God.
She says he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Her view is, it can. Scripture
says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. Her view is, he is not. Scripture says
the gospel is hid. She says the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. She says everyone hears.
Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. She of course disagrees. The
flesh in her theology chooses to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures say it cannot, to bring forth
fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. She calls this, man having
a will that is free. No matter how you look at it, her theological stance on this issue directly contradicts
and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates, and she is not likely to change it any time soon
because to bring her view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring her whole house
of cards down. and demolish her vain self-exalting stance. She cannot have that. She is far too attached
to it. One could even say she was in love with it. She certainly loves it more than the Truth of Scripture.
Her opinion is so important to her she prefers to blaspheme God than admit the Truth of Scripture and
she applauds those who do likewise.
Placing one's faith in Christ Jesus gives a transformed heart, no one is sanctified or justified prior to belief.
You have not shown this from scripture it is quite clear that the women had a heart so that she was able to place her faith in Christ Jesus.
Again you have demonstrated this heart condition is present at birth.