Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[DavidLamb]

The reality is that it does not matter. We must work on the basis that all mankind can be saved. Why? Because we do not know who is predestined and who is not.

1 Corinthians 7:15 & 16
"But if the unbeliever leaves, let him go. The believing brother or sister is not bound in such cases. God has called you to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"

According to Romans 8:29, predestination is according to foreknowledge? What does that mean? To me, God knows those who will accept Christ should they hear the gospel. Do I know who those people are? Sometimes I've had a knowing in my spirit. But I will not choose who to witness to on that basis. I could easily be wrong.​

Yes I agree with that. The idea of only preaching the gospel to those we are certain are among the elect is a non-starter, because, as you say, we don't know, but God does.

 

[GWH]

Yes I agree with that. The idea of only preaching the gospel to those we are certain are among the elect is a non-starter, because, as you say, we don't know, but God does.

Preaching GW is a non-starter because it is not necessary and thus silly per TULIP.

 

[DavidLamb]

Preaching GW is a non-starter because it is not necessary and thus silly per TULIP.

Not so. Those who believe in the Doctrines of Grace have been at the forefront of missionary work. We only have to think of missionaries such as William Carey, Andrew Fuller, David Brainerd, and John G. Paton, or preachers such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards and Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones to see this. Such people believed God's word when it says:

(1Co 1:21 NKJV) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[CS1]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:5-6, NRSV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:8-10, NRSV)

“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29, NRSV)

“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

“You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)

I do not agree when one is save d they desire to take any credit for their salvation. The confusion that is created to cause doubt of one being saved, staying saved , or losing salvation has taken many down the road of unbiblical statements and false narratives.

Jesus said in the Parable of "the Sower" (Matt 13)what happens. No one would have received the word of God if it was not sown first.
God Has chosen the Preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the power of God for salvation. Romans 1:16.

This must be preached so those can hear to be saved. You can't have Romans 10:9-11 without Verse 1:16

 

[lrs68]

Calvinism, Tulip is the Gospel of God

Actually, those merely describe the condition of the lost. It truly has no bearing on the Gospel of Christ and what God accomplished upon the Cross.

 

[Jon777]

I agree. But the god of calvinism DOES. Every command he gives is a deceptive work of condemnation, asking brick without straw. He only commands it to further condemn people who are bound by their "sin nature" and cannot believe and repent

I do not find “cannot believe”, but I see a couple of “will not believe”.

Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: (Luk 22:67 KJV)
Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. (Joh 4:48 KJV)

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:19-24, RSV)

From the Synod of Dort
The Sources of Unbelief and of Faith
The cause or blame for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is not at all in God, but in humanity. Faith in Jesus Christ, however, and salvation through him is a free gift of God. As Scripture says, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is a gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). Likewise: “It has been freely given to you to believe in Christ” (Phil. 1:29).
God’s Eternal Decree
The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decree. For “all his works are known to God from eternity” (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the elect and inclines them to believe, but by a just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us God’s act—unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just—of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decree of election and reprobation revealed in God’s Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.
Unbelief, a Human Responsibility
However, that many who have been called through the gospel do not repent or believe in Christ but perish in unbelief is not because the sacrifice of Christ offered on the cross is deficient or insufficient, but because they themselves are at fault.
Faith God’s Gift
But all who genuinely believe and are delivered and saved by Christ’s death from their sins and from destruction receive this favor solely from God’s grace—which God owes to no one—given to them in Christ from eternity.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually, those merely describe the condition of the lost. It truly has no bearing on the Gospel of Christ and what God accomplished upon the Cross.

Im explaing i a thread, that Calvinism is the Gospel and why. It gives scripture reasons.

 

[Jon777]

Under the slogan, God wants to save every human without exception; I've often wondered about the millions of people inhabiting the America's in the 1st Century AD? If Jesus came to save them and go to the cross for them, how is it explained that the gospel was not sent to them so they could believe? Of course, the Mormons believe Jesus Christ appeared to people in the Americas in the 1st century AD. Are they universalists, or Arminians?

 

[brightfame52]

I do not find “cannot believe”, but I see a couple of “will not believe”.

Its scriptural Jn 12:39

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Jon777]

Actually, those merely describe the condition of the lost. It truly has no bearing on the Gospel of Christ and what God accomplished upon the Cross.

What did God accomplish at the cross?

'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood, (Acts 20:28, YLT)

Jesus our Lord “who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.” (Rom 4:25, YLT)

At the cross, the elect had their offences paid for and at the cross the elect were declared righteous.

“…and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,” (Rev 5:9, YLT)

Christ did not pay for the sins of the entire world, but those “out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

Or as the Weymouth reads it:

And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation, (Rev 5:9, Weymouth)

The word “some” does not mean few, but “a number of persons or things, greater or less, but indeterminate.” 1828 Webster’s

 

[Hakawaka]

Yeah but that presupposes he was supernaturally made alive, thats the source of coming to his senses. God made him alive. Just like the other examples, the Sheep was found by the shepherd and the lost coin was found, the lost son was found. Is found Vs 24,32 are in the passive voice. You should know a person cannot liven themselves from the dead

The whole point of the parable is to show Jesus mission to save sinners, not to give credit to the ones being saved.

I'll grant you that, excellent point on sheep being found by the shepherd!

 

[brightfame52]

I'll grant you that, excellent point on sheep being found by the shepherd!

So its the same principal with all 3 lost objects. Famines are sent by God Lk 15:14 Ps 105:16

Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.

God ordered the Famine to bring the lost son to want !

 

[rogerg]

And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation, (Rev 5:9, Weymouth)

And not to get off topic (well, maybe just a little), but those whom God purchased out of every tribe and language and people and nation are the elect - the redeemed of God (not only those of the elect earthly Jews), who comprise the 144,000 of The Revelation because they, and they alone, learn the new song, no one else can learn it.

[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

[Rev 5:9 -10 KJV]
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[brightfame52]

And not to get off topic (well, maybe just a little), but those whom God purchased out of every tribe and language and people and nation are the elect - the redeemed of God (not only those of the elect earthly Jews), who comprise the 144,000 of The Revelation because they, and they alone, learn the new song, no one else can learn it.

[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

[Rev 5:9 -10 KJV]
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So would you say the 144000 is the Church, the Body of Christ ? Wouldn't that be the congregation of the Saints ?

 

[rogerg]

So would you say the 144000 is the Church, the Body of Christ ? Wouldn't that be the congregation of the Saints ?

Yes, I would say that.

 

[HeIsHere]

Under the slogan, God wants to save every human without exception; I've often wondered about the millions of people inhabiting the America's in the 1st Century AD? If Jesus came to save them and go to the cross for them, how is it explained that the gospel was not sent to them so they could believe? Of course, the Mormons believe Jesus Christ appeared to people in the Americas in the 1st century AD. Are they universalists, or Arminians?

Perhaps we do not use our finite minds to answer questions that only the infinite can answer.

The non-TULIPs are the humble ones, we accept some things are unknowable on this side of eternity.

 

[GWH]

Not so. Those who believe in the Doctrines of Grace have been at the forefront of missionary work. We only have to think of missionaries such as William Carey, Andrew Fuller, David Brainerd, and John G. Paton, or preachers such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards and Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones to see this. Such people believed God's word when it says:

(1Co 1:21 NKJV) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

MFWers affirm the doctrine of divine grace but view TULIP as heresy per the doctrines of divine omnilove and justness.

 

[HeIsHere]

2 Peter 3:9
(The Calvinist Standard Version)

“The Lord …is patient with Himself to regenerate you, His elect, not wanting any one of you, His elect, to perish, but every one of you, His
elect, to come to repentance.”

(from awesome Soteriology 101)

 

[GWH]

Under the slogan, God wants to save every human without exception; I've often wondered about the millions of people inhabiting the America's in the 1st Century AD? If Jesus came to save them and go to the cross for them, how is it explained that the gospel was not sent to them so they could believe? Of course, the Mormons believe Jesus Christ appeared to people in the Americas in the 1st century AD. Are they universalists, or Arminians?

Souls are judged on the basis of what they have been given. Most folks only have received general revelation (Romans 1:20 etc.).

 

[HeIsHere]

Not so. Those who believe in the Doctrines of Grace have been at the forefront of missionary work. We only have to think of missionaries such as William Carey, Andrew Fuller, David Brainerd, and John G. Paton, or preachers such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards and Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones to see this. Such people believed God's word when it says:

(1Co 1:21 NKJV) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I wonder how anyone can be saved when the Gospel is vague and impersonal.

Cause you know they cannot say Christ Jesus died for you, or God loves you .... if they are going to hold to their Calvinist doctrine that is.