Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[2Christ]

The last thing that Lord Jesus did was to introduce the new covenant. It is the covenant of grace, not of law. There is no grace and no mercy in the law. There is no in between. Either you are living according to the law or you are living by grace.

Lord Jesus shed His blood in order to secure the new covenant for us. That's how much it cost Him. I know not so many understand this, but it is an insult to think that obeying the law is enough to please God.

The New Covenant introduces a new Law. It is the law of the Spirit of life. It is not a law in the sense of written instructions. It is the principle of being led by the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit. All the Law of Moses did was condemn sinners. It was intended to lead us to Christ.

People seem to imagine that people like me are trying to get out of being righteous. Far from it. I realised that there is nothing good in me a very long time ago. I realised that I did not have to kill my enemy in order not to offend God. I just had to hate him. That was as good as murdering him. I have never made an idol to worship, but the word of God tells me that greed is idolatry.

The law is outward observance. God requires an inner conformity to His righteousness that I could never achieve of myself. Being led by the Spirit is far more demanding than ticking boxes that tell me how well I've conformed to the Law. This was especially true when I was a new Christian. It seemed that everything I wanted in life was against God's will for me. Yet according to the law I was doing all that was required.

The law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. If we are born again, the Law has done its job.

Jesus never had to speak of grace as a separate doctrine because He was grace incarnate. Why can't you see this? Do you think Paul invented something new? You keep turning the discussion away from what Jesus Himself taught and back to interpretations about the law and grace.

I agree that God wants more than outward obedience. Jesus taught exactly that. He said that anger is the root of murder, lust is the root of adultery, and that God looks at the heart. But notice what Jesus did: He did not abolish the commandments. He took them deeper.

When Jesus said that hatred is like murder and lust is like adultery, He was not replacing the commandments. He was showing their true spiritual meaning. You say the Law only condemned sinners, yet Jesus said:"If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17 ASV) And when asked about the greatest commandments, He answered with love for God and love for neighbour. He then said: On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (Matthew 22:40 ASV)

The law was not removed. It hangs upon love. Are we allowed to remove these simple commandments on our own when jesus said to keep them? You speak of being led by the Spirit. I agree. But where does the Spirit lead us? Into obedience to God, not away from it. Jesus said:"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 ASV), personally ,how could I not listen to him when he said;
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me." (John 14:21 ASV)

The New Covenant is not God lowering His standard. It is God writing His law on the heart so that His people desire to obey Him from within instead of merely obeying outwardly. if the Spirit is leading us, would the Spirit lead us to worship other gods, make idols, dishonor parents, murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, or break the commandments God spoke with His own voice? Of course not.

The difference between us is not whether God wants the heart. We both agree He does. The difference is that I believe what Jesus taught that true obedience begins in the heart and then appears in our actions. The commandments were never the enemy. Sin was the enemy. Grace does not free us from obeying God. Grace frees us from our sins so that we can through Love obey Him.

GOD said from a voice in heaven that was heard by Jesus disciples;

And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him!” (Luke 9:35)

 

[2Christ]

What do you do with Jesus telling Peter to stop eating according to the Law?

that is a good question I will be honest I am not certain, If you are referring to Peter's vision in Acts 10, Peter himself explained its meaning: "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28 ASV). The vision was given to prepare Peter to receive Gentiles, not to teach that unclean animals had become food. what do you think personally?

 

[Proximus]

"Hearing" means grasping the meaning of what was said and accepting it.
Like when someone tells someone something they needed to know.
Followed with a response..."I hear you."

Like a parent giving a child a stern warning about a certain behavior to be stopped.
Then asking...... "Do you hear me?!!!"

Our faith is what we learned of the Word and believed it is true.

As you may see it is more complex than that because a lot of the various people who to the Word, and hear it, and yet they draw various, not rarely even contradicting opinions, or views, let alone those who were called totally erratic by the early christian church. And so faith is much than "simple" idea. Certainly, you can stay on the very simple level of comprehension, but those who are more interested in the truth, have an option of searching for the authentic, not for only the very simple stuff that they were fed in their tradition under the name of the faith, and which they never truly saw if that was authentic or not, provided they were given some citations, but how coherent, or rightly collacted they usually do not know.

 

[2Christ]

I believe that Jesus was speaking to the Jews about Exodus 20, as they were in covenant to obey that law.

Gentiles were never in that covenant to obey the law (Exodus 24).

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law
and the temple service and the promises.

There can be no doubt that only Israel was given the law and the covenants because Paul just said so.

You must understand that Jesus was only sent to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

Jesus said He was only sent to the Jews.

The gospel was not given to the Gentiles until years later and the Gentiles were grafted into Jesus.

Your argument that Jesus was directly speaking to you is incorrect.

You do not understand the context of the gospels and the traditional church never understood that context

You are correct that the covenants and the Law were first given to Israel. Nobody disputes that. The question is whether Gentiles who come to the God of Israel through Christ are expected to live according to God's ways. You says Jesus was only speaking to Jews. Then why did Jesus repeatedly speak about the salvation of Gentiles? "And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 8:11 ASV)

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd." (John 10:16 ASV) After His resurrection, Jesus did not tell His disciples to keep His teachings among the Jews only:"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20 ASV)
Jesus did not say, "Teach the nations a different set of commandments." He said, "Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you." You say Jesus was not speaking to Gentiles. Yet Jesus Himself commanded that His teachings be taken to all nations.

The apostles understood this. When the Gentiles began turning to God, James declared: "Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God." (Acts 15:19 ASV)

Then he gave them four immediate requirements and added: For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath." (Acts 15:21 ASV) The Gentiles were not being told to ignore God's instructions. They were being given a starting point. Most importantly, Jesus taught that God's standards apply to all people, not only Jews. When speaking of the final judgment, He said:

"And before him shall be gathered all the nations." (Matthew 25:32 ASV)

All nations are judged by Christ. Therefore all nations are accountable to Christ.

if Jesus is Lord of the Gentiles, why would His commandments apply only to Jews? He commanded His disciples to teach all nations to observe what He taught. That means His words are for everyone who follows Him.

Do you follow him?

 

[Soyeong]

Does God write His law on our hearts or do we memorize the Torah?

Yes.

 

[2Christ]

Yes.

?? did Jesus speak of this for gentiles?

 

[Genez]

that is a good question I will be honest I am not certain, If you are referring to Peter's vision in Acts 10, Peter himself explained its meaning: "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28 ASV). The vision was given to prepare Peter to receive Gentiles, not to teach that unclean animals had become food. what do you think personally?

Peter was told to associate with Gentiles."

That meant?
Eating their food as well.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith ​

and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings ​

come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as ​

with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain ​

from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving ​

by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created ​

is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, ​

because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4:1-5​

Unclean food can refer to certain foods that science and medicine had discovered have potential
health problems, but not bad when understood and properly handled.

They did not think in terms of unseen germs and parasites back then.
It had more to do with ceremonial cleanliness.

And, another important point to be noted from the meaning of the Greek:

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected ​

if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

​

That does not mean we are to pray over junk food and God will bless it.
For everything God created?
Pertains to the actual thing God had created, as he had created it.
Not modified.
In other words?
When possible?
Organic food.

Because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

That made the food "ceremonially" clean.
According the God's law...
"Approved of God" to eat.

Keep in mind... man did not even know what germs were yet.
"Clean and unclean" had to do with ceremonial correctness before God.

 

[Genez]

As you may see it is more complex than that because a lot of the various people who to the Word, and hear it, and yet they draw various, not rarely even contradicting opinions, or views, let alone those who were called totally erratic by the early christian church. And so faith is much than "simple" idea. Certainly, you can stay on the very simple level of comprehension, but those who are more interested in the truth, have an option of searching for the authentic, not for only the very simple stuff that they were fed in their tradition under the name of the faith, and which they never truly saw if that was authentic or not, provided they were given some citations, but how coherent, or rightly collacted they usually do not know.

People hear the Word wrong does not mean that the Word is wrong.

"For those who have ears to hear" is by grace!

 

[Genez]

Yes.

His law that pertains to the new creation in Christ.

Not the Law of Moses written to the old creation that we no longer are to be as.

Here is one example....

​

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ​

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”​

John 13:34-35

Question: "As He loved us?" We are to love one another?

How did Jesus love Peter when Jesus called Peter "Satan?" (Matthew 16:21-23)

We are to be straight with each other in grace and truth.
Not sparing the flesh when feelings may be hurt, when that flesh is protecting evil.

It is not always nicey-nice as some Christians want it to always be.

 

[2Christ]

Peter was told to associate with Gentiles."

That meant?
Eating their food as well.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith ​

and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings ​

come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as ​

with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain ​

from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving ​

by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created ​

is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, ​

because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4:1-5​

Unclean food can refer to certain foods that science and medicine had discovered have potential
health problems, but not bad when understood and properly handled.

They did not think in terms of unseen germs and parasites back then.
It had more to do with ceremonial cleanliness.

And, another important point to be noted from the meaning of the Greek:

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected ​

if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

​

That does not mean we are to pray over junk food and God will bless it.
For everything God created?
Pertains to the actual thing God had created, as he had created it.
Not modified.
In other words?
When possible?
Organic food.

Because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

That made the food "ceremonially" clean.
According the God's law...
"Approved of God" to eat.

Keep in mind... man did not even know what germs were yet.
"Clean and unclean" had to do with ceremonial correctness before God.

thank you Genez, this makes sense.

 

[Inquisitor]

You are correct that the covenants and the Law were first given to Israel.

Jesus arrived to visit His friends!

Zechariah 13:6
And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded
the house of my friends.’

Jesus arrived to visit the house of David.

Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles.

Matthew 15:23-24
But He did not answer her (Gentile woman) a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away,
because she keeps shouting ". But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

At this time the Gentiles were definitely not in the covenant (Exodus 24) to obey the Torah.

The apostles did not associate with the Gentiles at this time.

The apostles asked Jesus to send her away they were not interested in Gentiles.

So when were the Gentiles included into the old covenant to obey the Torah (Exodus 24)?

Then he gave them four immediate requirements and added: For Moses from generations of old hath in every
city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath." (Acts 15:21 ASV)

So what, synagogues preach Moses?

Is that all you have?

That is inference not a formal command from God that Gentiles are under the law and not under grace!

You cannot be under two covenants at the same time if you are a Gentile.

I need the evidence from the scripture that Gentiles were included in Exodus 24.

Your trying to infer that Gentiles are under the law without any formal statement by God in the scripture.

 

[Inquisitor]

"And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 8:11 ASV)

God had a plan regarding the Gentiles but the Gentiles were not included until years after the resurrection.

Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Are you saying that Gentiles that call on the name of the Lord are not saved?

 

[Soyeong]

?? did Jesus speak of this for gentiles?

Indeed. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and then commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20).

 

[Soyeong]

His law that pertains to the new creation in Christ.

Not the Law of Moses written to the old creation that we no longer are to be as.

Here is one example....

​

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ​

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”​

John 13:34-35

Question: "As He loved us?" We are to love one another?

How did Jesus love Peter when Jesus called Peter "Satan?" (Matthew 16:21-23)

We are to be straight with each other in grace and truth.
Not sparing the flesh when feelings may be hurt, when that flesh is protecting evil.

It is not always nicey-nice as some Christians want it to always be.

The old man was the one who lived in sin in transgression of the Law of Moses, not in obedience to it. We are new creations in Christ to do good works and the Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to do good works. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law of Moses as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so the way that he loved us was through his obedience to it, which is also how we are to love one another. "Satan" means "adversary", so it is possible that Jesus was calling Peter an adversary rather than Satan.

 

[Soyeong]

What do you do with Jesus telling Peter to stop eating according to the Law?

Peter notably did not just object by saying that he had never eaten anything that was unclean but also added that he had never eaten anything that was common and God notably only rebuked Peter for referring to what He has made clean as being common but did not rebuke him for referring to what He has made clean as being unclean. So Peter correctly identified the unclean animals as unclean and correctly know that the Law of God prohibits eating them, but he incorrectly identified the clean animals as common and incorrectly declined to eat them in disobedience to God's command to kill and eat. Peter interpreted his vision on three occasions as being in regard to incorrectly identifying Gentiles without saying a word about now being permitted to eat uncles animals, so his vision had nothing to do with a change in their status.

 

[Soyeong]

Peter was told to associate with Gentiles."

That meant?
Eating their food as well.

That is not what was stated.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith ​

and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings ​

come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as ​

with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain ​

from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving ​

by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created ​

is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, ​

because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4:1-5​

If you do not take the blasphemous position that that the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God are the doctrine of demons, then you should not interpret what Paul said in regard to the doctrine of demons as referring to the commands of God. In Colossians 2:20-23, Paul interacted with pagans who were promoting human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so he interacted with people who were forbidding people to eat certain food that the Law of God says are good to eat. The Law of God is truth (Psalm 119:142), so those who know and believe the truth know that we do not need to refrain from eating clean animals because they were created to received with thanksgiving and have been sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. However, we unclean animals were not created to be received with thanksgiving and we should not receive with thanksgiving that which the Word of God says is an abomination.

Unclean food can refer to certain foods that science and medicine had discovered have potential
health problems, but not bad when understood and properly handled.
They did not think in terms of unseen germs and parasites back then.
It had more to do with ceremonial cleanliness.

While there are night and day differences between how healthy it is to eat clean and unclean animals and a tremendous number of parasites and diseases have been transferred to humans through eating unclean animals, God associated it with His holiness, so there is is much more to it than that and it does not follow that we are permitted to eat unclean animals if they were properly handled.

And, another important point to be noted from the meaning of the Greek:

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected ​

if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

​

That does not mean we are to pray over junk food and God will bless it.
For everything God created?
Pertains to the actual thing God had created, as he had created it.
Not modified.
In other words?
When possible?
Organic food.

Because it is consecrated by the ​

word of God and prayer." ​

That made the food "ceremonially" clean.
According the God's law...
"Approved of God" to eat.

Keep in mind... man did not even know what germs were yet.
"Clean and unclean" had to do with ceremonial correctness before God.

Prayer does not cause unclean animals to become clean in the same way that it does not cause junk food to become healthy.

 

[Genez]

That is not what was stated.


If you do not take the blasphemous position that that the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God are the doctrine of demons, then you should not interpret what Paul said in regard to the doctrine of demons as referring to the commands of God. In Colossians 2:20-23, Paul interacted with pagans who were promoting human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so he interacted with people who were forbidding people to eat certain food that the Law of God says are good to eat. The Law of God is truth (Psalm 119:142), so those who know and believe the truth know that we do not need to refrain from eating clean animals because they were created to received with thanksgiving and have been sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. However, we unclean animals were not created to be received with thanksgiving and we should not receive with thanksgiving that which the Word of God says is an abomination.


While there are night and day differences between how healthy it is to eat clean and unclean animals and a tremendous number of parasites and diseases have been transferred to humans through eating unclean animals, God associated it with His holiness, so there is is much more to it than that and it does not follow that we are permitted to eat unclean animals if they were properly handled.


Prayer does not cause unclean animals to become clean in the same way that it does not cause junk food to become healthy.

Thank you, sir.

Have a nice Day.

 

[Gideon300]

Jesus never had to speak of grace as a separate doctrine because He was grace incarnate. Why can't you see this? Do you think Paul invented something new? You keep turning the discussion away from what Jesus Himself taught and back to interpretations about the law and grace.

I agree that God wants more than outward obedience. Jesus taught exactly that. He said that anger is the root of murder, lust is the root of adultery, and that God looks at the heart. But notice what Jesus did: He did not abolish the commandments. He took them deeper.

When Jesus said that hatred is like murder and lust is like adultery, He was not replacing the commandments. He was showing their true spiritual meaning. You say the Law only condemned sinners, yet Jesus said:"If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17 ASV) And when asked about the greatest commandments, He answered with love for God and love for neighbour. He then said: On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (Matthew 22:40 ASV)

The law was not removed. It hangs upon love. Are we allowed to remove these simple commandments on our own when jesus said to keep them? You speak of being led by the Spirit. I agree. But where does the Spirit lead us? Into obedience to God, not away from it. Jesus said:"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 ASV), personally ,how could I not listen to him when he said;
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me." (John 14:21 ASV)

The New Covenant is not God lowering His standard. It is God writing His law on the heart so that His people desire to obey Him from within instead of merely obeying outwardly. if the Spirit is leading us, would the Spirit lead us to worship other gods, make idols, dishonor parents, murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, or break the commandments God spoke with His own voice? Of course not.

The difference between us is not whether God wants the heart. We both agree He does. The difference is that I believe what Jesus taught that true obedience begins in the heart and then appears in our actions. The commandments were never the enemy. Sin was the enemy. Grace does not free us from obeying God. Grace frees us from our sins so that we can through Love obey Him.

GOD said from a voice in heaven that was heard by Jesus disciples;

And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him!” (Luke 9:35)

If you want to observe the written code then you have no option but to obey the Sabbath law. I really don't know why believers don't understand the place of the law when God's word is so clear. Anyway, it's your life before God. I've answered your questions as best I can.

 

[Gideon300]

That is not what was stated.


If you do not take the blasphemous position that that the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God are the doctrine of demons, then you should not interpret what Paul said in regard to the doctrine of demons as referring to the commands of God. In Colossians 2:20-23, Paul interacted with pagans who were promoting human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so he interacted with people who were forbidding people to eat certain food that the Law of God says are good to eat. The Law of God is truth (Psalm 119:142), so those who know and believe the truth know that we do not need to refrain from eating clean animals because they were created to received with thanksgiving and have been sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. However, we unclean animals were not created to be received with thanksgiving and we should not receive with thanksgiving that which the Word of God says is an abomination.


While there are night and day differences between how healthy it is to eat clean and unclean animals and a tremendous number of parasites and diseases have been transferred to humans through eating unclean animals, God associated it with His holiness, so there is is much more to it than that and it does not follow that we are permitted to eat unclean animals if they were properly handled.


Prayer does not cause unclean animals to become clean in the same way that it does not cause junk food to become healthy.

So you reject Peter's vision as being from God?

 

[Genez]

Part of the written law was blood sacrifices....

What ya going to do about those?

And!

These 'law followers' never seem to get around to this one... Leviticus 15:19-24

​

“Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. ​

Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. Anything on which the ​

woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean. If any of you touch her bed, you ​

must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. ​

If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, ​

and you will remain unclean until evening. This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; ​

you will be unclean until evening if you touch it. If a man has sexual intercourse with her and her ​

blood touches him, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain unclean for ​

seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be unclean." ​

........