Is cessation an observation or theology?

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Because God is sovereign by nature.

Why did the manna stop? Because God said so.

The reason is not important.
We need not speculate about the symbolic meaning of the manna. Christ said HE WAS the manna from heaven.
…48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 This (Christ Himself) is the bread that came down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die.…
(John 6:48-49)
The manna did not represent the spiritual gifts Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. No matter how much you want to make it mean that to prove that the gifts of the Spirit ceased. This is a misuse of Biblical typology.
 
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Jesus did say we should take his body and blood as bread and wine. Eat it, drink it, so He is in us. We will be born again, with Jesus blood flowing in our vein, spiritually. When we face judgment day, God see us as seeing Jesus.

We are spiritual being as well as physical. 2 are intertwined. Just like paticle and wave duality.
 
They are so invested in the claims of the Pentecostals they will not listen or believe what is right before their own eyes.

They know these claims are beyond dubious but the truth means little when defending your own tribe.
A. I, for one, do not accept EVERY claim of those who believe God has done something supernatural for them.

(1) Instead I test their claims to determine if what happened could be seen as supernatural. If an outcome is inexplicable then I am not reluctant to say God did it.
(2) God answers our cry for help not only with great miracles but sometimes with small ones
(3) I usually want to know if a presumed supernatural event is a manifestation of what psychologists call the "PLACEBO EFFECT"
(4) Closely related to this I consider whether the healing is permanent or not, though we have to be aware that when a malady is the their sinful result of sin (as when people abuse drugs) their previous condition might very well return if they do not put aside the LIFESTYLE which caused their distress in the first place. An example of this is when Jesus healed a man then later said the following:
14 Afterward, Jesus found the man at the temple and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14)

B. In this post, you seem to be saying you preemptively reject claims you deem to be BEYOND DUBIOUS. Isn't the existence of any miracle, in a sense,"beyond dubious" in the sense that it is, according to the natural mind, highly improbable and therefore beyond our usual expectations?

C. James the brother of the Lord who was a leader in the First Century Church told us how to deal with people's various problems:
13Is any one of you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.…
(James 5:13-15)
Does your group practice this or is this scripture an anachronistic relic left over from the age when God did such things?
 
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It was "not an issue" because people were not so blind as to accept such dubious claims.

There have always been Simon Magus followers but not to the degree as they are today.
Are all claims to supernatural works "dubious." What about the testimony of the Apostles and Eye Witnesses?
There have always been Simon Magus followers but not to the degree as they are today.
How do you know this? What is your evidence?
 
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We need not speculate about the symbolic meaning of the manna. Christ said HE WAS the manna from heaven.
…48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 This (Christ Himself) is the bread that came down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die.…
(John 6:48-49)
The manna did not represent the spiritual gifts Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. No matter how much you want to make it mean that to prove that the gifts of the Spirit ceased. This is a misuse of Biblical typology.
I agree with your assessment about the argument. But when Christ says that he is the manna from heaven, he doesn't mean this to be a literal statement as you already know. His statement is a metaphor and it relates to the purpose of bread. Just as bread sustains our physical life, Jesus sustains our life in the next age.
 
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Are all claims to supernatural works "dubious." What about the testimony of the Apostles and Eye Witnesses?
Did you real the OP? I did.

The issue is modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

This discussion is not about the validity of the Bible. The testimonies of the Bible are not in question.

What are you trying to pull? Are you attempting to divert? Can you not stay on the subject?

There have always been Simon Magus followers but not to the degree as they are today.
How do you know this? What is your evidence?
Really? You call into question the "degree" of fraud?

I am not even sure how to respond to this comment but I will try.

It is my personal opinion that the Pentecostal movement has to a greater extent fooled the general population than Simon Magus did during the New Testament times.

Does this answer your question?
 
We need not speculate about the symbolic meaning of the manna.
Agreed.

The point is that the manna (regardless of what we may think of its symbolic meaning) simply ceased.

This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning.
 
It’s more complex than it first appears, and deception can feel very convincing. A person can experience deliverance and still show strong emotional reactions, because many learned responses and emotions are tied to neural pathways. That doesn’t necessarily invalidate exorcism or spiritual experiences, and it also doesn’t automatically discredit intense emotional reactions.

At the same time, there is the possibility of deception or misinterpretation. Experiences can be influenced, and what is perceived may not always reflect what is objectively happening. There is also a spiritual dimension where discernment becomes difficult, and things may not be as clear as they seem.

From my perspective, I’ve encountered things that challenged my analytical thinking. Even though I tend to overanalyze, I felt as though my perception was opened to something beyond ordinary explanation. This wasn’t in an extreme or distant setting, but in a normal environment.

In many cases, everything can feel like smoke and mirrors. It can seem as though we only understand reality in fragments, as if we are “seeing through a glass darkly.” Because of this, it’s easy to interpret experiences as either fully spiritual or fully psychological.

Much of what people experience may still be shaped by learned responses. People often report what they see or feel, but without time for reflection, those interpretations can become fixed conclusions. Dreams may be forgotten, spiritual impressions may go unexamined, and moments of insight may be missed entirely unless they are intentionally reflected on.

In that sense, understanding these experiences requires time, reflection, and caution. Without that, it can feel like clarity is always just out of reach, which can be frustrating and even disheartening.
 
It’s more complex than it first appears, and deception can feel very convincing. A person can experience deliverance and still show strong emotional reactions, because many learned responses and emotions are tied to neural pathways. That doesn’t necessarily invalidate exorcism or spiritual experiences, and it also doesn’t automatically discredit intense emotional reactions.

At the same time, there is the possibility of deception or misinterpretation. Experiences can be influenced, and what is perceived may not always reflect what is objectively happening. There is also a spiritual dimension where discernment becomes difficult, and things may not be as clear as they seem.

From my perspective, I’ve encountered things that challenged my analytical thinking. Even though I tend to overanalyze, I felt as though my perception was opened to something beyond ordinary explanation. This wasn’t in an extreme or distant setting, but in a normal environment.

In many cases, everything can feel like smoke and mirrors. It can seem as though we only understand reality in fragments, as if we are “seeing through a glass darkly.” Because of this, it’s easy to interpret experiences as either fully spiritual or fully psychological.

Much of what people experience may still be shaped by learned responses. People often report what they see or feel, but without time for reflection, those interpretations can become fixed conclusions. Dreams may be forgotten, spiritual impressions may go unexamined, and moments of insight may be missed entirely unless they are intentionally reflected on.

In that sense, understanding these experiences requires time, reflection, and caution. Without that, it can feel like clarity is always just out of reach, which can be frustrating and even disheartening.
You are speaking of the metaphysical, the OP is about the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

IOW, tangible events.

Claiming a "spiritual experience" is very different from claiming to raise the dead or curing blindness.
 
Did you real the OP? I did.

The issue is modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

This discussion is not about the validity of the Bible. The testimonies of the Bible are not in question.

What are you trying to pull? Are you attempting to divert? Can you not stay on the subject?


Really? You call into question the "degree" of fraud?

I am not even sure how to respond to this comment but I will try.

It is my personal opinion that the Pentecostal movement has to a greater extent fooled the general population than Simon Magus did during the New Testament times.

Does this answer your question?
Okay, I get that this is your personal opinion but Simon Magus and Simon Peter did not disagree about whether the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit was ongoing Denial of this is what you believe. The two Simons knew it was continuing. Their disagreement had to do with motive. Simon Magus thought of God's power as a commodity which, if he possessed it, would bring him power and money.

Of course, many people from EVERY Christian denomination are, from time to time, corrupted by such things. However, your wholesale condemnation of every last member of the Pentecostal Church for believing God intervenes supernaturally, categorically includes every Continuationist, past and present, because of this you cannot arbitrarily narrow the focus of this discussion to just modern Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Your belief in Cessationism does not come from anything explicitly stated in scripture but from the conclusions of theologians who lived centuries after the fact. These traditions were passed down to you from them. Though you profess to believe the written scriptures but it is they which affirm God's willingness to act on our behalf even if it means transcending nature.

James, goes as far as to tell us this:
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.…

(James 5:14-15)
Does your Church practice this? Do you see the results James saw or is it just a ritual?
 
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Your belief in Cessationism does not come from anything explicitly stated in scripture but from the conclusions of theologians who lived centuries after the fact. These traditions were passed down to you from them.
This comment is indicative of the warped thinking of many here, including you.

The belief that the claims of physical supernatural manifestations made by the modern day Pentecostal movement can or may be true is mind numbing.

This is not about theology, this is about a group of people claiming the moon is made of green cheese and people like you making bone head demands that there must be something "explicitly stating" that the moon is not made of green cheese for these silly claims to be wrong.

The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

They are simply mocking the Holy Spirit and you are their useful idiot.
 
This comment is indicative of the warped thinking of many here, including you.

The belief that the claims of physical supernatural manifestations made by the modern day Pentecostal movement can or may be true is mind numbing.

This is not about theology, this is about a group of people claiming the moon is made of green cheese and people like you making bone head demands that there must be something "explicitly stating" that the moon is not made of green cheese for these silly claims to be wrong.

The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

They are simply mocking the Holy Spirit and you are their useful idiot.
I usually do not reply to threads I have already commented on. But does it not say by the prophet Isaiah, “Behold I do a new thing”? What does that mean to you? He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Why would such things cease?

Let me speak clearly and plainly. We imitate right? Man and man’s science is a mere imitation no? Slight oversimplification but in essence yes.

Miracles are not the answer. They are not an excuse to do nothing. Neither are God’s acts strange for He created the whole world.

What is strange is that people are indirectly blaming God for their own lack of understanding. When they do not know how to cooperate with the supernatural, they cite cessationism as a cover for the fact that they have never seen the supernatural.

Does it not say blessed is he who believes without seeing? You are acting like the generation in Judges that did not believe because they did not see for themselves.

You believe you are saved from what? What good is that if there is no spiritual battle? If Satan were to strike you or me, we would be dead instantly. They have far superior knowledge of science and everything else. Those evil spirits leave no chance for us without a miracle.
 
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This comment is indicative of the warped thinking of many here, including you.

The belief that the claims of physical supernatural manifestations made by the modern day Pentecostal movement can or may be true is mind numbing.

This is not about theology, this is about a group of people claiming the moon is made of green cheese and people like you making bone head demands that there must be something "explicitly stating" that the moon is not made of green cheese for these silly claims to be wrong.

The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

They are simply mocking the Holy Spirit and you are their useful idiot.
that is simply not true. You're a liar. The buffoonery you display in this setting is nothing new with you. Your just a hateful angry person.


"The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

Y
our above comment proves you are very much ignorant of the word of GOD. You have not provided one biblical text to support your claims that the gifts are not for today. You have not testified of any work you have done for the Kingdom of GOD. You have yet to speak of the Lord Jesus Christ any of your posts. You think you are all knowing and all Present. Just because you lack experience don't mean other have. I think you have a strange mental issue where you are obsessed wit those who have witnesses and testified the wonderful things God did in their life. I would expect you are most likely a person who some kind of tragic relationship issue maybe a divorce or something like that. You must be very lonely person. I will pray for you.
 
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Agreed.

The point is that the manna (regardless of what we may think of its symbolic meaning) simply ceased.

This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning.
The point was NOT that the manna CEASED but that it had miraculously SUSTAINED Israel during their time in the desert. You cannot use manna as an all-purpose type to indicate the cessation of anything you happen to believe is no longer in effect. Specifically, manna represented Christ who sustains His children by the power of His continual life. That this is the meaning Christ gave to the metaphor is shown by the scripture itself. You bypass what Christ taught making the main point merely that the manna ceased.
 
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The point was NOT that the manna CEASED but that it had miraculously SUSTAINED Israel during their time in the desert. You cannot use manna as an all-purpose type to indicate the cessation of anything you happen to believe is no longer in effect. Specifically, manna represented Christ who sustains His children by the power of His continual life. That this is the meaning Christ gave to the metaphor is shown by the scripture itself. You bypass what Christ taught making the main point merely that the manna ceased.
This is what I wrote:

"This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning."

It is the "without warning" that is paramount to the issue of miracles ceasing.

People here are insisting that there must be a specific verse stating when tongues were to cease.

This is an assumption, the early Hebrews were given no warning that this miraculous function was to cease.

They just woke up one morning and noticed the manna ceased. They did not insist that God should have given them a warning.

Why is this so very hard for you to grasp?

Acknowledging that the claims of the Pentecostals are false does not mean Christianity is false.
 
This is what I wrote:

"This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning."

It is the "without warning" that is paramount to the issue of miracles ceasing.

People here are insisting that there must be a specific verse stating when tongues were to cease.

This is an assumption, the early Hebrews were given no warning that this miraculous function was to cease.

They just woke up one morning and noticed the manna ceased. They did not insist that God should have given them a warning.

Why is this so very hard for you to grasp?

Acknowledging that the claims of the Pentecostals are false does not mean Christianity is false.
lol ignorant.
 
If God leaves you alone...You are in deep deep trouble. That's all I know for it is written "Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done, and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you"...