How long have you been single?

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Now you assume I'm in denial. Your mind-reading powers are truly extraordinary, haha.

"The question is whether Christians should encourage one another to view those emotions through the lens of discipleship rather than treating their fulfillment as an unquestionable necessity."
I can only speak for myself, of course. I don't believe that these desires are an "unquestionable necessity." Nobody as ever told me that these desires are an unquestionable necessity. And just because someone desires romance/marriage/sex doesn't mean they view it that way, either.

" A Christian response is to thank God for what He does grant you, not curse God for what He doesn’t." I don't "curse God" for my singleness. I'm not aware of anyone else on this thread doing so, either.

Concerning Paul's own contentment with singleness, yes, Paul was content with his own singleness. In 1 Corinthians 7, he also said that he wished everyone was like him in that regard. But he also conceded that not everyone is like that, and that it would actually be better for those people to marry.

You say I'm minimizing the force of Paul's argument. Again, Paul's argument here is fairly nuanced. He does not demand singleness of his readers. You seem to believe that the proper response to reading this letter is to stay single for your entire lifetime. Nowhere in the letter does Paul require this of his readers in Corinth. He makes lots of nuanced statements here.

And, yes, it's bad to marry an ungodly partner. That's why it's important to marry a godly partner, and to carefully evaluate such a relationship. That's the whole point of the dating process.

And just because someone badly wants marriage doesn't mean they're "idolizing" it. Interestingly enough, the Bible nowhere says anything about "idolizing marriage." This is a warning invented by well-meaning modern-day Christians, and yeah, it can be sound advice, sure. But I think people can overdo it.

You also say that "unsatiated carnal desire is the root of all agonies." I wonder if by "carnal" you mean "sinful." Is that the case? I often hear Christians call sexual desires "carnal" or something along those lines. Of course, God created sex. Sex is supposed to be a good thing, albeit something reserved for a married couple.

"You can desire for a prince charming or a princess buttercup who doesn't exist; you can settle for a hellish marriage just for the sake of getting married; or you can accept it as not only a price to serve God, but also the void that led you to God, and be content with it." If you, for whatever reason, think these are your only options in life, and think that these are the only possible outcomes, well, I can't help you. Good news, though. You don't have to get married if you don't want to. It's your choice. Not everybody is single by choice. But it is something we can choose. If you prefer singleness, well, great! Good for you. More power to you. But, like Paul conceded, not everyone is like that. That's OK, too.
You keep asking Christians to view desires for marriage "through the lens of discipleship" rather than treating them as an "unquestionable necessity." That's fine as a general principle. But who here is actually claiming that marriage is an unquestionable necessity? Wanting something deeply is not the same thing as believing one cannot live without it. The fact that someone experiences grief, loneliness, or disappointment over singleness does not mean they have elevated marriage to the status of an idol.

Likewise, when you say that Christians should thank God for what He gives rather than "curse God" for what He withholds, you appear to be responding to a position that nobody expressed. A person can lament their singleness, struggle with it, pray about it, and even grieve it without cursing God. Scripture itself contains numerous examples of faithful believers expressing sorrow over unmet desires without being condemned for doing so.

Your appeal to Paul also seems one-sided. Yes, Paul was content in singleness. Yes, he praised the advantages of singleness. But Paul explicitly acknowledged that singleness is not everyone's calling. In 1 Corinthians 7, he repeatedly recognizes differing gifts and circumstances. His conclusion is not that everyone should learn to embrace lifelong singleness. Rather, he states that marriage is appropriate and even preferable for some people. The chapter presents both singleness and marriage as legitimate Christian vocations.

You also repeatedly warn about "idolizing marriage," but there is a significant difference between idolizing marriage and earnestly desiring it. Scripture consistently presents marriage as a good gift from God. A desire for a good gift does not become idolatry merely because it is strong. Otherwise, we would have to apply the same logic to desires for children, friendship, meaningful work, justice, healing, or countless other good things.

Another issue is your use of the term "carnal desire." If by "carnal" you mean sinful desire, then it is inappropriate to place the desire for marriage and marital intimacy into that category. God created both marriage and sexuality. The desire for them is not inherently sinful. It can become disordered, just as any good desire can become disordered, but that is not the same thing as treating the desire itself as suspect.

Finally, your proposed alternatives seem unnecessarily narrow. You frame the issue as though the choices are either unrealistic fantasy, a terrible marriage entered out of desperation, or accepting lifelong singleness. But most Christians who desire marriage are pursuing a fourth option: patiently seeking a godly spouse while trusting God with the outcome. That is neither idolatry nor fantasy. It is simply the ordinary path that countless faithful Christians have taken throughout history.

At several points, you appear to infer motives and beliefs that people have never claimed to hold. You speak as though those who struggle with singleness must secretly believe marriage will complete them, must be cursing God, or must be idolizing relationships. Yet none of those conclusions necessarily follow from the fact that someone deeply desires marriage. Before correcting people, it is important to engage with what they are actually saying rather than what you suspect they might mean.

The Christian tradition has long recognized a distinction between contentment and indifference. A person can be content in Christ while still longing for something they do not possess. Paul himself expressed desires that were not fulfilled. Contentment is not the absence of desire; it is the refusal to make the fulfillment of that desire the condition of faithfulness to God.
You seem to, quite often, accuse people on this thread of holding positions that they never claimed to hold. What are you, a mind reader?
No need for a mind reader, jsut need familiarity with the bible stories to know that idolatry of fertility was a real thing. Maybe not idolatry of marriage, since marriage was mostly arranged, but idolatry of fertility, such as the examples of Leah and Rachel. If you don't acknowledge that, so be it.
 
In the Bible, we see Hannah pray for a child. We see Isaac pray for a child on behalf of his wife. We see Rachel pray for a child. Where in the Bible are these people condemned for doing so?
All I have to say is that be careful of what you wish for. Hannah prayed everyday to no avail, she was so obsessed with it that she couldn't sleep or eat, which certainly worsened her bodily condition and made it harder for her to conceive, didn't it? Only when she confressed to the priest, returned back in peace and ate normally did she finally conceive; Isaac did pray, but Rebecca had a hard labor with twins; so did Rachel, but as I mentioned, Joseph was later presumably dead, the birth of Benjamin cost Rachel's life.
Also, I find it curious that you assume that someone who's praying to God for a child or a romantic partner is "only" praying to God for child or a romantic partner. This is all they're praying about? That's quite an assumption.
Nope, the assumption is all yours. This is about the attitude, treating God as a genie to grant your wishes. Feel free to ask God for other stuffs on top of a child and see how it works.
 
I don't mean to judge you, but your posts seem to be laced with anger and bitterness. It seems as if you regularly point out a possible wrong motive for desiring something while presenting it as the only possible motive, and then you mercilessly rail against it. I am not a psychologist, and I have no desire to judge or condemn you, but it truly sounds as if you experienced a deep hurt at some time in your past that has not yet been effectively healed. If so, then I hope that you find healing through the only one who can truly mend a broken heart.
Why would I be bitter? I've just had a bowl of ice cream!
 
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Why would I be bitter?
Perhaps because you have not found a suitable or willing partner to navigate your way through this fallen world with?

Marriage, from what I see in scripture, is limited to this temporal life. It will not exist throughout all of eternity. If I cannot live without it now, then how would I cope without it throughout all eternity? Far from being eternal bliss, that would be eternal torment. I believe there is much truth to the saying, "We are what we eat." In other words, we become what we regularly consume. If I were to sit around reading romance novels and watching Hallmark movies, which I think you said you do, then that would create a desire in me for romance. Personally, I choose to feed on the word of God to maintain an eternal perspective. Unfortunately, my dining plans, if I can put it that way, have been greatly interrupted of late because I have allowed other things to creep in which have kept me away from the dinner table. When I get that sorted out, my life will be back in order. I have been alone for so long that it really doesn't faze me. I wholeheartedly believe that things like books, movies, peer pressure, and even church sermons put an unhealthy emphasis on marriage, but I certainly don't condemn marriage itself. For certain people, it is the right fit. For others, it isn't. I am not going to crusade against marriage simply because I am not married myself. Although you will deny doing so yourself, that does seem to be what you are doing here.​
 
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Perhaps because you have not found a suitable or willing partner to navigate your way through this fallen world with?
Or because such a partner only exists in romance novels and Hallmark movies? If there's anything to be anger and bitter at, I've been ordered around by my parents, teacher, coach and boss, and I've had enough of that, why would I add another persons' nagging on top of that? And neither do I myself wanna order anybody around.

And I don't condemn marriage either, I've said it over and over again, that marriage itself is just an abstract concept, a neutral institution, what matters is WHO you marry, what each of your and your family can bring to the table.
 
Or because such a partner only exists in romance novels and Hallmark movies?
Then why does the Bible say that he that finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord? There are some decent men and women in this world. Definitely the minority, but they do exist, so suitable partners can be found. Also, if you hold to this belief, then why torture yourself by reading romance novels and watching Hallmark movies?​
If there's anything to be anger and bitter at, I've been ordered around by my parents, teacher, coach and boss, and I've had enough of that, why would I add another persons' nagging on top of that? And neither do I myself wanna order anybody around.
There are certainly plenty of nagging women in this world, but not all of them. Why do you treat a part as if it is the whole? I am sorry that you have been ordered around by so many people in your life. That may be the root cause of the anger that seems to permeate your posts.​
 
Then why does the Bible say that he that finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord? There are some decent men and women in this world. Definitely the minority, but they do exist, so suitable partners can be found. Also, if you hold to this belief, then why torture yourself by reading romance novels and watching Hallmark movies?
How about instead of "torture", I'm reading and watching them for fun? And for some hope in humanity? How would it be "torture" anyway? Don't you think today's dating apps, tiktok culture, fragmentation, polarization, etc. are more of a torture?
There are certainly plenty of nagging women in this world, but not all of them. Why do you treat a part as if it is the whole? I am sorry that you have been ordered around by so many people in your life. That may be the root cause of the anger that seems to permeate your posts.
Because the ones who don't nag only exist in romance novels and Hallmark movies? Or perhaps other countries?
 
The temptation is powerful, I admit that. To be honest, it's more so that I'm simply curious about how he came to these particular viewpoints and how he thinks about them. They're just so unusual to me that it makes we want to learn more. But, yes, I too, very much doubt that I will change his mind, haha.

Yeah I get it, he's a fascinating little case study. The frustrated psychology student in me just wants to listen and take notes 😂.

I can give you a synopsis of what I've observed from other threads, but if you'd rather stick to your own research I totally get that!

Happy psychoanalyzing lol 😆
 
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Because the ones who don't nag only exist in romance novels and Hallmark movies? Or perhaps other countries?
You are doing it again. You are projecting your limited life experiences onto an entire country and possibly the whole world. Can't you see the problem with that? The cure lies in mending your own heart through Christ and not in mass condemnation of others.​
 
How about instead of "torture", I'm reading and watching them for fun? And for some hope in humanity? How would it be "torture" anyway? Don't you think today's dating apps, tiktok culture, fragmentation, polarization, etc. are more of a torture?
Why would you seek some hope in humanity through works of fiction? That sounds like self-delusion to me. The Bible offers hope in humanity, even though none of us have fully arrived. Relationships require time and effort. For some, it is a worthwhile endeavor. For others, it isn't. Why condemn those who are trying? It sounds like bitterness to me, and your posts don't give the impression that you are having fun.​
 
So we now have @Lovette preaching that married people are the Beast of the Apocalypse if not the actual antichrist themselves....

And literally everyone else telling this troll he is wrong....
 
Please be assured, that in Christianity, singleness is preferred, so you can serve God without distraction. In the late Roman Empire and early Medieval time, chastity was a heavenly virtue, celibacy was the token of devotion, marriage was a worldly affair, it was mostly arranged for economic and political purposes; the turning point was the 4th Lateran Council in 1215, that's when marriage became a formal religious sacrament, the church had officially asserted itself as the authority over marriage, private marriage was condemned; it was during the Romantic era in the 19th century that marriage was loosened from property transfer and political union and more toward feelings and emotions; it was as late as in the 1950s did monogamous marriage and nuclear family become the absolute norm for as much as over 90% of the population, and then in the 1980s was the rise of purity culture as the response to the sexual revolution and "free love" movement, that you "save yourself for marriage", which was a form of false prosperity gospel, that God will reward your faith with happy marriage.
"save yourself for marriage", which was a form of false prosperity gospel, that God will reward your faith with happy marriage.

Interesting take, yes. Of course. God almost NEVER guarantees perfect anything in this age. Maybe the age to come it will be better. But, if that's the case. Its because of us. And our own choices really.
 
Anyway, I can see why people would read that in the wrong way. But I think thats what was meant...At least to me.
 
"save yourself for marriage", which was a form of false prosperity gospel, that God will reward your faith with happy marriage.

Interesting take, yes. Of course. God almost NEVER guarantees perfect anything in this age. Maybe the age to come it will be better. But, if that's the case. Its because of us. And our own choices really.
I'd like to see a direct quote on that somewhere....

Anywhere in fact would be good.
 
You keep asking Christians to view desires for marriage "through the lens of discipleship" rather than treating them as an "unquestionable necessity." That's fine as a general principle. But who here is actually claiming that marriage is an unquestionable necessity? Wanting something deeply is not the same thing as believing one cannot live without it. The fact that someone experiences grief, loneliness, or disappointment over singleness does not mean they have elevated marriage to the status of an idol.

Likewise, when you say that Christians should thank God for what He gives rather than "curse God" for what He withholds, you appear to be responding to a position that nobody expressed. A person can lament their singleness, struggle with it, pray about it, and even grieve it without cursing God. Scripture itself contains numerous examples of faithful believers expressing sorrow over unmet desires without being condemned for doing so.

Your appeal to Paul also seems one-sided. Yes, Paul was content in singleness. Yes, he praised the advantages of singleness. But Paul explicitly acknowledged that singleness is not everyone's calling. In 1 Corinthians 7, he repeatedly recognizes differing gifts and circumstances. His conclusion is not that everyone should learn to embrace lifelong singleness. Rather, he states that marriage is appropriate and even preferable for some people. The chapter presents both singleness and marriage as legitimate Christian vocations.

You also repeatedly warn about "idolizing marriage," but there is a significant difference between idolizing marriage and earnestly desiring it. Scripture consistently presents marriage as a good gift from God. A desire for a good gift does not become idolatry merely because it is strong. Otherwise, we would have to apply the same logic to desires for children, friendship, meaningful work, justice, healing, or countless other good things.

Another issue is your use of the term "carnal desire." If by "carnal" you mean sinful desire, then it is inappropriate to place the desire for marriage and marital intimacy into that category. God created both marriage and sexuality. The desire for them is not inherently sinful. It can become disordered, just as any good desire can become disordered, but that is not the same thing as treating the desire itself as suspect.

Finally, your proposed alternatives seem unnecessarily narrow. You frame the issue as though the choices are either unrealistic fantasy, a terrible marriage entered out of desperation, or accepting lifelong singleness. But most Christians who desire marriage are pursuing a fourth option: patiently seeking a godly spouse while trusting God with the outcome. That is neither idolatry nor fantasy. It is simply the ordinary path that countless faithful Christians have taken throughout history.

At several points, you appear to infer motives and beliefs that people have never claimed to hold. You speak as though those who struggle with singleness must secretly believe marriage will complete them, must be cursing God, or must be idolizing relationships. Yet none of those conclusions necessarily follow from the fact that someone deeply desires marriage. Before correcting people, it is important to engage with what they are actually saying rather than what you suspect they might mean.

The Christian tradition has long recognized a distinction between contentment and indifference. A person can be content in Christ while still longing for something they do not possess. Paul himself expressed desires that were not fulfilled. Contentment is not the absence of desire; it is the refusal to make the fulfillment of that desire the condition of faithfulness to God.

No need for a mind reader, jsut need familiarity with the bible stories to know that idolatry of fertility was a real thing. Maybe not idolatry of marriage, since marriage was mostly arranged, but idolatry of fertility, such as the examples of Leah and Rachel. If you don't acknowledge that, so be it.
I never claimed marriage was an "unquestionable necessity." Did someone else on this thread make that claim? I don't think so.

Jesus and Paul both made allowances for the desire to marry. If marriage is so bad, maybe God, Jesus, or Paul should have just forbidden it altogether, haha.

All kidding aside, your message #461 is interesting because it contains stuff I agree with, and points I was actually trying to make:

"Wanting something deeply is not the same thing as believing one cannot live without it. The fact that someone experiences grief, loneliness, or disappointment over singleness does not mean they have elevated marriage to the status of an idol."

"A person can lament their singleness, struggle with it, pray about it, and even grieve it without cursing God. Scripture itself contains numerous examples of faithful believers expressing sorrow over unmet desires without being condemned for doing so."

"Paul explicitly acknowledged that singleness is not everyone's calling."

" If by "carnal" you mean sinful desire, then it is inappropriate to place the desire for marriage and marital intimacy into that category. God created both marriage and sexuality. The desire for them is not inherently sinful."

"A person can be content in Christ while still longing for something they do not possess."


I agree with all this stuff. These points are all good.

You do mention the option of "patiently seeking a godly spouse while trusting God with the outcome." God doesn't promise marriage to any of us. I don't see how, exactly, you're supposed to "trust God" to fulfill a promise that He never made to you. I think we have the freedom to choose to stay single, and the freedom to choose marriage. See 1 Corinthians 7:39, for instance. I wouldn't be too passive about finding a spouse, especially if you're over 25 or so.

I didn't warn about "idolizing marriage," I was trying to explain why that term isn't really helpful or even accurate.

Also, just curious, when you talk about "idolatry of fertility," where do you get that from? It's OK to desire children. It's also OK to badly desire children. In the Bible we see women do that quite often. But these people are never condemned for "idolatry."
 
So we now have @Lovette preaching that married people are the Beast of the Apocalypse if not the actual antichrist themselves....

And literally everyone else telling this troll he is wrong....
It just feels so weird to agree with the resident misogynist on anything, even this.
 
Because the ones who don't nag only exist in romance novels and Hallmark movies? Or perhaps other countries?
Nagging refers to the act of persistently complaining, criticizing, or continuously urging someone to do something.

It's what you are doing here... :unsure::oops:
 
I've said it over and over again, that marriage itself is just an abstract concept, a neutral institution, what matters is WHO you marry, what each of your and your family can bring to the table.
That's a peculiar perspective.

If marriage were merely a product of man's capacity for abstraction, why would Jesus have felt it necessary to define the sanctity and permanence of marriage? (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9)

And how could something which only existed conceptually, be so comprehensive in scope, that only death or adultery could disrupt it? (1 Corinthians 7:39, Romans 7:2-3)

In unbelief, I kinda shared your perspective, because I had drew the inference that marriage was antiquated and of no lasting importance, having saw too many instances of men and women engaging in extramarital affairs. I said in my heart that it was better not to marry, because it appeared that hardly anybody wanted to remain married. Such occurrences were the only frame of reference I had, by which I adjudged the propriety of marriage according to their disloyal hearts.

But knowing what I now do, I see how my perception had been distorted by the immoral and contrary factors of those who liked to jump in and out of each others beds. I had not known that marriage was a covenant. Characteristic of the love of the Father and Son for the Church; illustrated at the hand of the husband and the wife. And neither was I apprised of the workings of Satan and his objective to unethically unfasten sex from marriage.

I don't know how a believer could dismiss marriage so readily. Marital union is sacred and should be respected by all (Hebrews 13:4) Regardless of whether they are single, married, or widowed.