The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?

[Thaddeus]

A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death causes sin to increase and is a law that is sinful, however, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and when our sin is revealed then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. So the law of sin and the Law of God lead us in opposite directions. Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which held him captive, which was waging war with the law of his mind, and which he served with his flesh. So Paul made a stark contrast between the Law of God the law of sin, but you are conflating them.

No, Im simply repeating what Paul plainly stated. Sin took occasion of the commandment not to covet to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him. A person who insists law must be obeyed will not understand Paul's message on this subject, unless they include law relating to the inner man. For that law is what is being written about in 7-11&14-24. In other words, if you believe the law must be obeyed to prove you love God and are a justified person, are you including the law concerning the inner man concerning that? Can you control your thoughts/desires?

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul was an expert on the law. To obey the ten commandments required inward obedience. So, as he believed as a pharisee if he did not obey that law he could not be justified, sinfull passions were then aroused in him by sin taking occasion of the commandment not to covet

 

[Soyeong]

No, Im simply repeating what Paul plainly stated. Sin took occasion of the commandment not to covet to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him.

We both agree with what is stated, but rather we are discussing how it should be interpreted. When Paul referred to sin doing something he was speaking about the law of sin, that is speaking about the law of sin taking the occasion through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase. There is nothing inherent to the command against coveting that causes coveting to increase, but rather that command leads us to repent from coveting and causes sin to decrease. The problem is that there is something within us that is reacting to the Law of God that is causing sin to increase, which is what we need to be freed from by the Law of the Spirit so that we that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God (Roman 8:3-4).

When Paul said in Romans 7:25 that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with serving the law of sin with his flesh, what exactly do you think that he meant by that?

A person who insists law must be obeyed will not understand Paul's message on this subject, unless they include law relating to the inner man. For that law is what is being written about in 7-11&14-24. In other words, if you believe the law must be obeyed to prove you love God and are a justified person, are you including the law concerning the inner man concerning that? Can you control your thoughts/desires?

In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so that is emphatically in support of the position that we must obey the Law of God.

The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has commanded is to teach us how to love different aspects of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. This has nothing to do with trying to proving that we love God but is intrinsically the way to love Him.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of someone who is righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from works done in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isiah 51:7). The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of someone who is righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ. Being a doer of the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to prove that we are righteous, but is intrinsically the way to be righteous.

Yes, we can control our thoughts and desires.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul was an expert on the law. To obey the ten commandments required inward obedience.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God's commandments has always been a matter of the heart.

So, as he believed as a pharisee if he did not obey that law he could not be justified, sinfull passions were then aroused in him by sin taking occasion of the commandment not to covet

In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only the doers of the law will be justified, so he never stopped believing that he could not be justified if he did not obey it. However, there is nothing that is the result of this believe that causes sinful passions to be aroused in him by sin taking the occasion of the commandment not to covent, but rather it is the law of sin that does that.

 

[Thaddeus]

We both agree with what is stated, but rather we are discussing how it should be interpreted. When Paul referred to sin doing something he was speaking about the law of sin, that is speaking about the law of sin taking the occasion through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase. There is nothing inherent to the command against coveting that causes coveting to increase, but rather that command leads us to repent from coveting and causes sin to decrease. The problem is that there is something within us that is reacting to the Law of God that is causing sin to increase, which is what we need to be freed from by the Law of the Spirit so that we that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God (Roman 8:3-4).

When Paul said in Romans 7:25 that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with serving the law of sin with his flesh, what exactly do you think that he meant by that?


In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so that is emphatically in support of the position that we must obey the Law of God.

The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has commanded is to teach us how to love different aspects of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. This has nothing to do with trying to proving that we love God but is intrinsically the way to love Him.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of someone who is righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from works done in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isiah 51:7). The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of someone who is righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ. Being a doer of the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to prove that we are righteous, but is intrinsically the way to be righteous.

Yes, we can control our thoughts and desires.



In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God's commandments has always been a matter of the heart.


In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only the doers of the law will be justified, so he never stopped believing that he could not be justified if he did not obey it. However, there is nothing that is the result of this believe that causes sinful passions to be aroused in him by sin taking the occasion of the commandment not to covent, but rather it is the law of sin that does that.

Well you need to include Rom2:12 when quoting verse13.
If you sin under the law you will be judged by the law, therefore you would be declared righteous by obeying the law. However, Christians are not under the law(Rom6:14
It is good to bear in mind the whole chapter, further on Paul is writing of the hypocrisy of the Jews.

So you believe the doers of the law will be justified.
Have you any children?
If so, when they reached puberty would you tell them that if they dwelt on any impure thought/lusted they could not be justified before God, and would therefore end up in hell as the justified are doers of the law?
If you told them that, what do you think the practical result would be?

 

[Thaddeus]

We both agree with what is stated, but rather we are discussing how it should be interpreted. When Paul referred to sin doing something he was speaking about the law of sin, that is speaking about the law of sin taking the occasion through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase. There is nothing inherent to the command against coveting that causes coveting to increase, but rather that command leads us to repent from coveting and causes sin to decrease. The problem is that there is something within us that is reacting to the Law of God that is causing sin to increase, which is what we need to be freed from by the Law of the Spirit so that we that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God (Roman 8:3-4).

When Paul said in Romans 7:25 that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with serving the law of sin with his flesh, what exactly do you think that he meant by that?


In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so that is emphatically in support of the position that we must obey the Law of God.

The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has commanded is to teach us how to love different aspects of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. This has nothing to do with trying to proving that we love God but is intrinsically the way to love Him.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of someone who is righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from works done in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isiah 51:7). The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of someone who is righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ. Being a doer of the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to prove that we are righteous, but is intrinsically the way to be righteous.

Yes, we can control our thoughts and desires.



In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God's commandments has always been a matter of the heart.


In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only the doers of the law will be justified, so he never stopped believing that he could not be justified if he did not obey it. However, there is nothing that is the result of this believe that causes sinful passions to be aroused in him by sin taking the occasion of the commandment not to covent, but rather it is the law of sin that does that.

I will answer the question for you. Sin would take occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in them

 

[2Christ]

Many today like to divide up the scriptures as if there were some differentiable distinction between the Law and good works that one may do.

Where it's true that the Mosaic Law (Torah), prescribes commandments, rituals and ethical duties given to Israel, many of its requirements overlap with what modern Christians call "good works" — otherwise defined as morally commendable actions, charity, justice, and even some religious observance. Let's look at some comparisons.

Mosaic law: Establish courts, judges, impartial justice; prohibit perverting justice, taking bribes, favoring the poor or rich; protect the rights of strangers, widows, orphans (e.g., Deut. 16:18–20; Ex. 23:1–9; Deut. 24:17–18).

Modern good works: Supporting rule of law, volunteering legal aid, voting for just policies, refusing corruption, defending marginalized groups and many, many other acts of benevolence toward others by way of physical actions or verbal ministry toward, etc.


Mosaic law: Leave gleanings for the poor, forgive debts in the sabbatical year, provide for widows, orphans, strangers; mandated tithes for Levites and the needy (e.g., Lev. 19:9–10; Deut. 15:1–11; Deut. 14:28–29).

Modern good works: Charitable giving, food banks, debt relief advocacy, social-welfare support, volunteering with shelters.


Mosaic law: Love the stranger because Israelites were strangers in Egypt; specific protections for sojourners (e.g., Ex. 22:21; Lev. 19:34).

Modern good works: Refugee assistance, immigrant legal services, community integration programs, welcoming neighbors.


Mosaic law: Honest weights and measures; prohibitions on stealing, false weights, fraud, and exploiting workers (e.g., Lev. 19:13; Deut. 25:13–16; James 5:4 reflects this ethic in the New Testament).

Modern good works: Fair-trade practices, consumer protection, paying living wages, ethical business conduct.


Mosaic law: Timely pay for workers, permit rest on Sabbaths, kind treatment of animals, rest for the land (e.g., Deut. 24:14–15; Ex. 23:12; Deut. 5:12–15; Deut. 22:6–7).

Modern good works: Labor rights advocacy, humane farming practices, environmental stewardship, employee protections.


Mosaic law: Sabbaths, festivals, sacrificial system, and purity laws structured communal life, rest, and redistribution (e.g., Lev. 23; Deut. 16).

Modern good works: Community-building through religious worship, volunteering in congregational programs, organizing relief during festivals/holidays.


Mosaic law: Laws encouraging mercy (e.g., cities of refuge for manslayers, provisions for restitution, Jubilee principles) (e.g., Num. 35; Lev. 25).

Modern good works: Restorative justice programs, mediation, reparations or restitution efforts.


Mosaic law: Prohibitions against murder; injunctions to protect life (e.g., Ex. 20:13; laws about accidental harm and restitution).

Modern good works: Violence prevention, emergency aid, healthcare access, child protection services.


Mosaic law: Commands to teach children the statutes and covenant (e.g., Deut. 6:4–9).

Modern good works: Civic education, parenting programs, religious instruction, mentoring youth.


Mosaic law: Almsgiving, ritual purity, prayer, and acts required by law that express religious devotion (e.g., Deut. 14:22–29; Lev. 6:2–7).

Modern good works: Public acts of faith-based service, community volunteering motivated by conscience.



So, the next time someone tries to foist some sort of false barrier between the Mosaic Law and modern good works, just remind them of the many Mosaic commandments that clearly function as structured, communal expressions of what contemporary ethics calls "good works"; justice, charity, hospitality, honesty, care for the vulnerable and community practices that promote social cohesion and welfare. The difference is largely institutional and theological — Mosaic Law binds these as covenantal obligations within a religious-legal system. Today they are often framed as voluntary moral duties, social policy or faith-motivated charity, etc.

This is ample reason as to why the statements made by some are absolutely false where they try to stand on the idea that modern good works are independent of the Mosaic Law and legalism when trying to apply them in support of good works being required to retain one's salvation, and especially to earn it by any measure. This makes it absurd the statement some stand upon when claiming, "Yeah, we're saved by grace through faith...but ya gotta live it!"

What rubbish!

MM

The Bible does not teach "Law or good works?" as if they are opposites. It distinguishes between trying to establish righteousness by human effort and the good works that naturally come from faith and obedience.

Jesus never taught that good works were unnecessary. He said, "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments" (John 14:15), and, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

Good works are not the enemy of faith. They are the fruit of faith. Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20). A good tree produces good fruit. In the same way, genuine faith produces obedience, mercy, love, and righteousness.

The Law itself is not the problem. Jesus said, "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). The problem has always been sin and the traditions of men that replace God's commandments.

So the biblical choice is not "Law or good works." God calls His people to both love Him and love their neighbor. Good works do not replace faith, and faith does not eliminate obedience. According to Jesus, true disciples hear His words and do them.

 

[Soyeong]

Well you need to include Rom2:12 when quoting verse13.
If you sin under the law you will be judged by the law, therefore you would be declared righteous by obeying the law. However, Christians are not under the law(Rom6:14
It is good to bear in mind the whole chapter, further on Paul is writing of the hypocrisy of the Jews.

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. Romans 2:14, Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Law of Moses. In Romans 2:17-29, Paul added those who were calling themselves Jews, in other words, he was addressing Gentiles who had converted to being Jews by being physically circumcised and were now calling themselves Jews but who were not obeying the Law of God, and he was making the point that being a Jew is not just about being physically circumcised but also about having a circumcised heart, which is evident by our obedience to the Law of Moses. The way to recognize that a Gentiles has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses.

No one is declared righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the way to become righteous is the result of having perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

It would be absurd to interpret Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so we are still under it. In Romans 6:16, the Law of Moses and and the law of sin lead us in opposite directions where we are slaves to the one that we obey, either to the law of sin, which leads to death, or to the Law of Moses, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves a slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of Moses is God's gift of eternal life. This is in accordance with Jesus affirming in Luke 10:25-28 the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses.

So you believe the doers of the law will be justified.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of Moses (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, we become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our obedience to the Law of Moses.

Have you any children?
If so, when they reached puberty would you tell them that if they dwelt on any impure thought/lusted they could not be justified before God, and would therefore end up in hell as the justified are doers of the law?
If you told them that, what do you think the practical result would be?

I do not. If I had children, then I would not tell them that because it is not true. Everyone who will be declared righteous has sinned, so we are not required to have perfect obedience to the Law of Moses in order to be declared righteous. If we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value again demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. If someone repents when they sin, then they can continue to be a doer of the Law of Moses.

I will answer the question for you. Sin would take occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in them

What exactly do you think is the law of sin in contrast with the Law of Moses?

Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody?

 

[Thaddeus]

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. Romans 2:14, Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Law of Moses. In Romans 2:17-29, Paul added those who were calling themselves Jews, in other words, he was addressing Gentiles who had converted to being Jews by being physically circumcised and were now calling themselves Jews but who were not obeying the Law of God, and he was making the point that being a Jew is not just about being physically circumcised but also about having a circumcised heart, which is evident by our obedience to the Law of Moses. The way to recognize that a Gentiles has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses.

No one is declared righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the way to become righteous is the result of having perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

It would be absurd to interpret Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so we are still under it. In Romans 6:16, the Law of Moses and and the law of sin lead us in opposite directions where we are slaves to the one that we obey, either to the law of sin, which leads to death, or to the Law of Moses, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves a slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of Moses is God's gift of eternal life. This is in accordance with Jesus affirming in Luke 10:25-28 the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses.


While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of Moses (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, we become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our obedience to the Law of Moses.


I do not. If I had children, then I would not tell them that because it is not true. Everyone who will be declared righteous has sinned, so we are not required to have perfect obedience to the Law of Moses in order to be declared righteous. If we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value again demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. If someone repents when they sin, then they can continue to be a doer of the Law of Moses.


What exactly do you think is the law of sin in contrast with the Law of Moses?

Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody?

Romans2:13 has already been addressed. From your post I assume you did not read my response concerning it.


''''It would be absurd to interpret Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. ''''

Rom7:14-24 is a continuation of 7-11. The commandment being transgressed is coveting. I don't think we can continue this conversation much longer due to your statement, the gulf is far too wide. Sin is the transgression of the law. So if sin shall no longer be your master, transgressing God's laws shall no longer be your master. As Saul could faultlessly obey the non moral law, the only way sin could be his master is according to the moral law, mainly of the ten commandments
Your comment about Paul delighting in sin was also addressed. Once again I doubt you read it due to your statement.
When Jesus walked this earth, he told the people they were evil and NOT ONE OF THEM obeyed the law.
If you are under the law you are under righteousness of obeying the law. According to Paul, to be under righteousness of obeying the law requires perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11)
In Rom2:14&15 Paul tells us if gentiles had never known of biblical law they can show the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. Would you have known the requirements of the law without having read of biblical law?
Im sorry, but you are far from understanding Paul's message on this subject, too far for us to continue. But thank you for your posts.

 

[Musicmaster]

Rightly dividing the word of truth does not involve interpreting in a way that turns it against following truth and the Law of Moses is truth (Psalm 119:142). In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23).

Rightly dividing the word of truth involves recognizing that obedience to the Law of Moses is not possible in relation to salvation. That's the rub in all this. Far too many people are trying to force the Law into the salvation equation. Do you see the problem here? The Law of Moses defines good works that we may do. Given that the Law is how we know what sin is, then it is the Law that we know what good works are. I created a thread that shows the parallels of all good works with the Law.

Post in thread 'The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?'

Jun 17, 2026

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so there is an intrinsic connection between our gift of being saved from not being a doer of the Law of God and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to understand which motivations are the correct connection. Good works do not feed into our salvation and vice versa, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was...

• Musicmaster

The works-based system of salvation is itself floating in the outer space of falsehoods because it has no footing. When one points to the writings that were directed toward we of Israel, they are not what is relevant to us today when looking to what Paul stated that is relevant to the body of Christ today and ever since the fall of Israel. Yes, what Jesus and the apostles taught Israel was all indeed true...FOR those to whom it was all addressed. Water baptism today doesn't remit sins. That was true FOR those to whom it was spoken and written, in the time and dispensation under which it was actively true for those people at that time. Failure to rightly divide that from what is true FOR us today, that only introduces the confusions and dichotomies that define your current stance.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The Bible does not teach "Law or good works?" as if they are opposites. It distinguishes between trying to establish righteousness by human effort and the good works that naturally come from faith and obedience.

We are in agreement. Yes. If you or anyone else believe I said otherwise, then please quote me on that and I will correct it, but I don't believe I did state that unless it was a fat-finger moment of my fingers not necessarily expressing my meaning.

Jesus never taught that good works were unnecessary. He said, "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments" (John 14:15), and, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

Yes. Again, we are in agreement. what I've been saying is that the work of water baptism for us today and all others back to the fall of Israel, hat water baptism doesn't remit sins any longer. The gospel as stated in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 doesn't include the element of water baptism as it is stated for Israel in Act2 2:38. Paul never hinted at the idea of water baptism remitting our sins. Such an instruction is non-existent from him. He even stated that what he had been teaching was given to him ONLY from Christ Jesus, not from any other man that the things he already had received from men as stated within the the Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve. It was the Kingdom gospel that he learned from men that was the basis of his persecution of believing Jews before his conversion and subsequent instruction that had not been given to him by any man...the Gospel of Grace which not one of the twelve taught to Israel.

Good works are not the enemy of faith. They are the fruit of faith.

I've said that numerous times throughout these threads. Yes. Please accept that I am saying yes, those who believe otherwise.

The Law itself is not the problem. Jesus said, "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). The problem has always been sin and the traditions of men that replace God's commandments.

Yes, and a common tradition among most churches today are the various elements of replacement theology. We of Israel see this every day within modern, Westernized Christianity. Coupling the Law with salvation is utterly wrong. Many a Christian will claim that he agrees with that statement, and yet turn right around and preach to new converts the works-based salvation message. Satan loves the hypocrisy within so much of modern gospel messages where new converts are taught, "Yes, we're saved by grace through faith...BUT YA GOTTA LIVE IT!" The gospel, as stated in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 states no BUT in that context in relation to saving faith.

So the biblical choice is not "Law or good works." God calls His people to both love Him and love their neighbor. Good works do not replace faith, and faith does not eliminate obedience. According to Jesus, true disciples hear His words and do them.

Again, you're doing what so many others do, which is to rewrite what I've been saying into something I have not been saying. We are saved by grace through faith...period. Good works are a natural outflow of a saving faith. It's like breathing the air, which is performed mostly by involuntary elements within our brains, just like our heartbeat. Sanctification is also a power that goes to work on all who truly believe Paul's gospel. Repositioning back to the works-based gospel of the Kingdom is a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

So, my question to you is, do you actually think that your salvation is at all based upon your works. Did you achieve salvation by any measure of your personal efforts for good works? If so, then how did that happen? Where is that stated as the modus operandi in any of Paul's instructions?

MM

 

[2Christ]

Rightly dividing the word of truth involves recognizing that obedience to the Law of Moses is not possible in relation to salvation. That's the rub in all this. Far too many people are trying to force the Law into the salvation equation. Do you see the problem here? The Law of Moses defines good works that we may do. Given that the Law is how we know what sin is, then it is the Law that we know what good works are. I created a thread that shows the parallels of all good works with the Law.

Post in thread 'The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?'

Jun 17, 2026

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so there is an intrinsic connection between our gift of being saved from not being a doer of the Law of God and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to understand which motivations are the correct connection. Good works do not feed into our salvation and vice versa, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was...

• Musicmaster

The works-based system of salvation is itself floating in the outer space of falsehoods because it has no footing. When one points to the writings that were directed toward we of Israel, they are not what is relevant to us today when looking to what Paul stated that is relevant to the body of Christ today and ever since the fall of Israel. Yes, what Jesus and the apostles taught Israel was all indeed true...FOR those to whom it was all addressed. Water baptism today doesn't remit sins. That was true FOR those to whom it was spoken and written, in the time and dispensation under which it was actively true for those people at that time. Failure to rightly divide that from what is true FOR us today, that only introduces the confusions and dichotomies that define your current stance.

MM

the "work" based system to attain salvation does not exist in the bible, it is a man made idea, anyone who mention works get accused of this but I have not seen anyone on this forum that promotes doing works to get saved, its just that people do this silly association. Works comes later, its the thing of a Mature Christian who has grown in wisdom and grace, they do not do good works for salvation but because they want to. The Holy spirit transforms a person, its not immediate but people Grow in the wisdom given by the Holy Spirit.

Another problem associated with the word "works" is that it is also associated with the word LAW and that also is a misconception, christian do not do works of the "LAW" they do the works Jesus showed us to do, help one another , feed the poor and all these other good things Christ showed us, he is our example in this life. He showed us the way.

James explains this well but again people see these false non biblical work associations in what James says and reject his words and twist the meaning of his words;

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth itprofit?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The core of the Law and proper Living in the Spirit is Love.

 

[Musicmaster]

the "work" based system to attain salvation does not exist in the bible, it is a man made idea, anyone who mention works get accused of this but I have not seen anyone on this forum that promotes doing works to get saved, its just that people do this silly association. Works comes later, its the thing of a Mature Christian who has grown in wisdom and grace, they do not do good works for salvation but because they want to. The Holy spirit transforms a person, its not immediate but people Grow in the wisdom given by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

Another problem associated with the word "works" is that it is also associated with the word LAW and that also is a misconception, christian do not do works of the "LAW" they do the works Jesus showed us to do, help one another , feed the poor and all these other good things Christ showed us, he is our example in this life. He showed us the way.

Wrong. Works are still a matter of Law. THAT is why associating works with salvation is absolutely wrong, but works associated with REWARDS, that is the proper association. I have already provided the link above to my thread where I show, point blank, the parallels between the Law and good works. If it is by the Law that we know what sin is, then it is by that same Law that we know what good works are.

James explains this well but again people see these false non biblical work associations in what James says and reject his words and twist the meaning of his words;

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth itprofit?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The core of the Law and proper Living in the Spirit is Love.

James also taught justification by works, which does not apply to us today. James and Paul clearly were not on the same page on this topic:

Paul said:

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James, on the other hand, said this more than once:

James 2:21, 24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ...
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Trying to separate good works from the Law is a futile, false division that is far too prevalent within Western Christianity. You people who are on that track don't see the massive gulf before you, waiting for you to go over the edge of ignorance into the horrid error of making the defining authority for good works something other than established law. That's like saying that atheism has always been capable of developing universal good by itself without running aground of injustice and immorality.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Folks, the OP of this thread shows conclusively that good works have a defining authority for them being what classifies as good works, and that being the Law. Without a defining authority for good works, one ends up floundering about with senseless arguments as to what constitutes good works. One may way that THIS is a good work while another may disagree and say that the other is a good work...on and on the disagreement could go.

In other words, if TRUE benevolence were left up to mankind to define, the corruptions of from the sin nature of man would eventually corrupt the perceptions governing what is good works.\

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Without a defining authority for good works, one ends up floundering about with senseless arguments as to what constitutes good works.

It's clearly defined in scripture that good works are works of the spirit. Bad works are works of the flesh. Abstaining from doing works of the flesh is good works

 

[Thaddeus]

James also taught justification by works, which does not apply to us today. James and Paul clearly were not on the same page on this topic:

I do see what you mean, but couldn’t we try and bridge the gap a bit?



As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James2:24

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Verse 24



Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance Rom6:16&17

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death 20&21



So to Paul, the Romans used to be slaves to sin but had changed through knowing his gospel message. Paul states if you are a slave to sin it leads to death. When discussing this, it is always good to accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, as by in large people do today. Let’s take one of the examples:

A man professes to have gotten saved, he is a wife beater, gets drunk every night, is a habitual thief and constantly uses foul language. A true slave to sin we can say, sin dominates his life. And under Paul’s message he can be instantly justified even whilst in that state by faith in Christ. But what if, after a time there was no change whatsoever in the man’s life, he still beats his wife, still gets drunk every night is still a habitual thief and still constantly uses foul language. Would Paul consider the man is genuinely saved? I’m sure he would not, neither would James.

Paul’s core message is, die to righteousness of obeying the law and sin shall no longer be your master. He also stressed holy living. So I’m sure Paul would judge the man as not saved as he remained a slave to sin/’sin dominated his life.

James might say, you cannot be righteous before God if you have nothing to show for it over time. Such faith is dead faith.

 

[Musicmaster]

I do see what you mean, but couldn’t we try and bridge the gap a bit?



As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James2:24

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Verse 24

For perspective, let's take a gander at this:

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James, then, was addressing Israel, not Gentiles under Paul's ministry. My fellow believing Jews in Israel and abroad were still practicing adherence to the Mosaic Law. That gospel is another gospel not preached by Paul, but it was preached by Peter and the other eleven. That is not FOR us today. So, when you speak of bridging "the gap," How does one do that without creating more problems than what they think they're solving? Please elaborate.

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance Rom6:16&17

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death 20&21



So to Paul, the Romans used to be slaves to sin but had changed through knowing his gospel message. Paul states if you are a slave to sin it leads to death. When discussing this, it is always good to accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, as by in large people do today. Let’s take one of the examples:

A man professes to have gotten saved, he is a wife beater, gets drunk every night, is a habitual thief and constantly uses foul language. A true slave to sin we can say, sin dominates his life. And under Paul’s message he can be instantly justified even whilst in that state by faith in Christ. But what if, after a time there was no change whatsoever in the man’s life, he still beats his wife, still gets drunk every night is still a habitual thief and still constantly uses foul language. Would Paul consider the man is genuinely saved? I’m sure he would not, neither would James.

Paul’s core message is, die to righteousness of obeying the law and sin shall no longer be your master. He also stressed holy living. So I’m sure Paul would judge the man as not saved as he remained a slave to sin/’sin dominated his life.

James might say, you cannot be righteous before God if you have nothing to show for it over time. Such faith is dead faith.

So, let's bring this into perspective:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

How far afield of sin is a believer who falls into unbelief? Are they like a wife beater or an alcoholic? Is there a difference? Do you not still commit sin daily like all the rest of all who are believers?

Given that your references speak of "death," where in that context is it speaking of loss of salvation...spiritual death? I can't see that anywhere. Mere death from within this life isn't akin to loss of salvation. If you're going to transliterate or inject salvation into that context, please show how that is consistent with that context without redefining terms. Willful sin for believers can and has led to an early physical death for many, but I don't see spiritual death as the focus in that context, even though many professing believers have that painted on their lenses of subjectivity through which they tend to read scripture.

Thanks

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Folks, if our salvation were at all dependent upon our performance and/or our faithfulness, where is that imaginary line located for loss of salvation...if it existed at all?

Nobody can seem to answer that question given that we all sin, occupy bodies of sin, and so therefore sin even after faith and salvation.

MM

 

[Roger316]

We both agree with what is stated, but rather we are discussing how it should be interpreted. When Paul referred to sin doing something he was speaking about the law of sin, that is speaking about the law of sin taking the occasion through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase.

Paul’s phrase “the law of sin and death” refers to the Mosaic Law and its sacrificial system. Under that covenant, when a Jew sinned, he brought an animal sacrifice as an expression of contrition and an appeal for forgiveness and mercy. But there was no end to these sacrifices, because there was no end to sin. He sinned and sacrificed, sinned again and sacrificed again, a third time and sacrificed a third time. The Mosaic Law, by its very design, kept repeating the same pattern: sin and death, sin and death. That is why Paul can speak of it as “the law of sin and death”—it exposed sin but never finally broke its cycle.

In contrast, the gospel announces that Jesus’ sacrifice breaks the very cycle the Mosaic Law could only expose. Where the Law produced an unending rhythm of “sin and death,” Christ offers a once‑for‑all sacrifice that actually ends the problem the Law could only manage. His death does not merely cover sin temporarily; it destroys sin’s dominion and opens the way for a life in which righteousness is not a fleeting moment between failures but a Spirit‑empowered reality. The gospel’s promise is not that we will continue sinning forever with endless forgiveness, but that through Christ the reign of sin itself will be brought to an end. In Him, the pattern is no longer “sin and death,” but grace and life — a new creation where the inevitability of sin is replaced by the inevitability of redemption.

There is nothing inherent to the command against coveting that causes coveting to increase, but rather that command leads us to repent from coveting and causes sin to decrease. The problem is that there is something within us that is reacting to the Law of God that is causing sin to increase, which is what we need to be freed from by the Law of the Spirit so that we that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God (Roman 8:3-4).

When Paul said in Romans 7:25 that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with serving the law of sin with his flesh, what exactly do you think that he meant by that?

Paul is not saying that the command against coveting causes coveting to increase, as though God’s Law were some kind of trigger for sinful behavior. Rather, Paul’s point is that the Law reveals coveting that was already present but hidden. The command functions like a mirror: it does not create the blemish; it exposes it. When Paul says that sin “seized an opportunity through the commandment,” he is describing how the Law uncovers the deeper layers of desire that we did not know were there. The Law of coveting does not make Paul covet more — it shows Paul how much coveting was already operating beneath his conscious obedience. In that sense, the Law is holy, righteous, and good, but it reveals a self that is not.


And this is where Paul’s argument becomes even more profound. The Law does not merely expose individual acts of sin; it exposes the depth and power of the sin nature — a reality so deeply rooted in us that we cannot reach it, control it, or fix it. That is why Paul ends Romans 7 with the cry for deliverance and immediately turns to the “law of the Spirit of life” in Romans 8. The problem is not the Law; the problem is us. The Law shows us what righteousness looks like, but it cannot transform the inner condition that resists it. Only the Spirit can free us from the internal power that the Law exposes but cannot heal. Paul’s contrast between serving the Law of God with his mind and serving the law of sin with his flesh is his way of saying: I know what is right, but something in me is stronger than my knowing — and only God can break that power.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Many today like to divide up the scriptures as if there were some differentiable distinction between the Law and good works that one may do.

Where it's true that the Mosaic Law (Torah), prescribes commandments, rituals and ethical duties given to Israel, many of its requirements overlap with what modern Christians call "good works" — otherwise defined as morally commendable actions, charity, justice, and even some religious observance. Let's look at some comparisons.

Mosaic law: Establish courts, judges, impartial justice; prohibit perverting justice, taking bribes, favoring the poor or rich; protect the rights of strangers, widows, orphans (e.g., Deut. 16:18–20; Ex. 23:1–9; Deut. 24:17–18).

Modern good works: Supporting rule of law, volunteering legal aid, voting for just policies, refusing corruption, defending marginalized groups and many, many other acts of benevolence toward others by way of physical actions or verbal ministry toward, etc.


Mosaic law: Leave gleanings for the poor, forgive debts in the sabbatical year, provide for widows, orphans, strangers; mandated tithes for Levites and the needy (e.g., Lev. 19:9–10; Deut. 15:1–11; Deut. 14:28–29).

Modern good works: Charitable giving, food banks, debt relief advocacy, social-welfare support, volunteering with shelters.


Mosaic law: Love the stranger because Israelites were strangers in Egypt; specific protections for sojourners (e.g., Ex. 22:21; Lev. 19:34).

Modern good works: Refugee assistance, immigrant legal services, community integration programs, welcoming neighbors.


Mosaic law: Honest weights and measures; prohibitions on stealing, false weights, fraud, and exploiting workers (e.g., Lev. 19:13; Deut. 25:13–16; James 5:4 reflects this ethic in the New Testament).

Modern good works: Fair-trade practices, consumer protection, paying living wages, ethical business conduct.


Mosaic law: Timely pay for workers, permit rest on Sabbaths, kind treatment of animals, rest for the land (e.g., Deut. 24:14–15; Ex. 23:12; Deut. 5:12–15; Deut. 22:6–7).

Modern good works: Labor rights advocacy, humane farming practices, environmental stewardship, employee protections.


Mosaic law: Sabbaths, festivals, sacrificial system, and purity laws structured communal life, rest, and redistribution (e.g., Lev. 23; Deut. 16).

Modern good works: Community-building through religious worship, volunteering in congregational programs, organizing relief during festivals/holidays.


Mosaic law: Laws encouraging mercy (e.g., cities of refuge for manslayers, provisions for restitution, Jubilee principles) (e.g., Num. 35; Lev. 25).

Modern good works: Restorative justice programs, mediation, reparations or restitution efforts.


Mosaic law: Prohibitions against murder; injunctions to protect life (e.g., Ex. 20:13; laws about accidental harm and restitution).

Modern good works: Violence prevention, emergency aid, healthcare access, child protection services.


Mosaic law: Commands to teach children the statutes and covenant (e.g., Deut. 6:4–9).

Modern good works: Civic education, parenting programs, religious instruction, mentoring youth.


Mosaic law: Almsgiving, ritual purity, prayer, and acts required by law that express religious devotion (e.g., Deut. 14:22–29; Lev. 6:2–7).

Modern good works: Public acts of faith-based service, community volunteering motivated by conscience.



So, the next time someone tries to foist some sort of false barrier between the Mosaic Law and modern good works, just remind them of the many Mosaic commandments that clearly function as structured, communal expressions of what contemporary ethics calls "good works"; justice, charity, hospitality, honesty, care for the vulnerable and community practices that promote social cohesion and welfare. The difference is largely institutional and theological — Mosaic Law binds these as covenantal obligations within a religious-legal system. Today they are often framed as voluntary moral duties, social policy or faith-motivated charity, etc.

This is ample reason as to why the statements made by some are absolutely false where they try to stand on the idea that modern good works are independent of the Mosaic Law and legalism when trying to apply them in support of good works being required to retain one's salvation, and especially to earn it by any measure. This makes it absurd the statement some stand upon when claiming, "Yeah, we're saved by grace through faith...but ya gotta live it!"

What rubbish!

MM

I went to a lot of different churches growing up and was wondering what is required to go to Heaven when I die. I had already had many close calls by the time I was a teenager.
Perhaps you have that question too.

Every church I recall told us we had to do good works to get to Heaven. Living a life of good works certainly improves our lives in so many ways.
One day a man knocked on my door and cared enough to show me from the Bible where I had been mistaken. We all know that Jesus paid for ALL of our sins, past present and future. He suffered crucifixion on the cross, was buried in the tomb and arose the third day.
The part that I was confused about was my part. What did I have to do to be saved?

Some churches led me to believe that I had to do good works, sacraments, quit sinning, clean up my life, get baptized, etc. Those are all good works.
The man who visited me cared enough to show where I was wrong from the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is God's kindness that we do not earn or deserve.
Faith is a trust spoken about in John 3:16 KJV and uses the word believe. Jesus is the sole Object of that trust and it's not in ourselves.
Salvation is the gift from God.
God the Father so loved the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son.
The Son gave His life in atonement for our sins, not we ourselves.
We receive it by His grace through faith in Jesus.
Salvation is not earned by any of our works.
I am so very grateful that he shared that important fact with me. I had the cart before the horse. I was misled to think growing up that all the commands in the Bible applied to salvation when in fact we all have broken many commands.
Revelation 21:8 KJV lists sins like fear and lying as those who shall go to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Those people were trusting in their own ways to be saved and as sincere as they were, they were sincerely wrong.
Salvation from sins and the consequences of going to Hell has been paid in full. How do we receive that gift that Jesus paid for? It is told to us exactly 100 times in the gospel of John. Believe is the word. The object of that is Who?

 

[Musicmaster]

I went to a lot of different churches growing up and was wondering what is required to go to Heaven when I die. I had already had many close calls by the time I was a teenager.
Perhaps you have that question too.

Every church I recall told us we had to do good works to get to Heaven. Living a life of good works certainly improves our lives in so many ways.
One day a man knocked on my door and cared enough to show me from the Bible where I had been mistaken. We all know that Jesus paid for ALL of our sins, past present and future. He suffered crucifixion on the cross, was buried in the tomb and arose the third day.
The part that I was confused about was my part. What did I have to do to be saved?

Some churches led me to believe that I had to do good works, sacraments, quit sinning, clean up my life, get baptized, etc. Those are all good works.
The man who visited me cared enough to show where I was wrong from the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is God's kindness that we do not earn or deserve.
Faith is a trust spoken about in John 3:16 KJV and uses the word believe. Jesus is the sole Object of that trust and it's not in ourselves.
Salvation is the gift from God.
God the Father so loved the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son.
The Son gave His life in atonement for our sins, not we ourselves.
We receive it by His grace through faith in Jesus.
Salvation is not earned by any of our works.
I am so very grateful that he shared that important fact with me. I had the cart before the horse. I was misled to think growing up that all the commands in the Bible applied to salvation when in fact we all have broken many commands.
Revelation 21:8 KJV lists sins like fear and lying as those who shall go to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Those people were trusting in their own ways to be saved and as sincere as they were, they were sincerely wrong.
Salvation from sins and the consequences of going to Hell has been paid in full. How do we receive that gift that Jesus paid for? It is told to us exactly 100 times in the gospel of John. Believe is the word. The object of that is Who?

Good testimony. That question that kept cropping up, "What must I do on my part?" There's no right answer to the wrong question other than to point out that the question itself in invalid given the sufficiency in the shed Blood of Christ Jesus.

Good stuff, my friend.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Folks, if our salvation were at all dependent upon our performance and/or our faithfulness, where is that imaginary line located for loss of salvation...if it existed at all?

Nobody can seem to answer that question given that we all sin, occupy bodies of sin, and so therefore sin even after faith and salvation.

MM

The "imaginary' line is denying the lord. If we deny him, he will deny us. We can deny God either by our words or by our works.

They affirm that they know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16​

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13​