The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?

[Musicmaster]

You could just admit, there would be occasions, given extreme enough circumstances where you would not consider someone saved by their actions

I'm not so bold as to think that I can usurp the Throne of Christ Jesus, who alone is the only Judge of salvation.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

I'm not so bold as to think that I can usurp the Throne of Christ Jesus, who alone is the only Judge of salvation.

MM

But you are given discernment

 

[Musicmaster]

There is nothing in what you have written that shows Paul did not believe he belonged to the same church as the other apostles.
The fact he was taught of Christ his message certainly does not prove that:

Interesting.

Can you explain, then, why Paul's Gospel in Acts 15:1-4 contains no instruction whatsoever for water baptism for remission of sins for salvation, compared to that of Peter and the twelve in Acts 2:38, which DID contain the command to be water baptized for their remission of sins?

“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts10:39-43

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures 1Cor15:3&4

Seems the same to me.

I've given to you above in this posting the contrasting references for your study. Please let me know your thoughts.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

Interesting.

Can you explain, then, why Paul's Gospel in Acts 15:1-4 contains no instruction whatsoever for water baptism for remission of sins for salvation, compared to that of Peter and the twelve in Acts 2:38, which DID contain the command to be water baptized for their remission of sins?



I've given to you above in this posting the contrasting references for your study. Please let me know your thoughts.

MM

Paul baptised a few. He didn't say he was wrong to do so. He himself was baptised.
Do you think Paul baptised in error when he was in ministry?

 

[Musicmaster]

oh you are one to think Jesus spoke only to the Jews! then I leave you in your crass voluntary ignorance, there is nothing I can do for you you would not listen anyways but I provide the verses as I said, i have little hope for you as you will not change. May the lord wake you up from the false doctrines you follow and preach here on this forum.

You do give up easily it seems.

Jesus did not speak only about believing. He also taught faithfulness and perseverance. He said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved”

Why ignore to whom He was speaking? Can you find anywhere that Paul instructed the same under his gospel given to Him by that same Christ, but AFTER the fall of Israel, the very Israel to whom Christ preached before our fall?

(Matthew 24:13, ASV). He warned, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10, ASV).

Yes, the REWARD of the crown of life. Where do you see salvation in that?

He taught His disciples, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31, ASV), and, “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit” (John 15:5, ASV).

Again, why are you injecting salvation into that?

In the parable of the sower, those who bear fruit are those “who in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience” (Luke 8:15, ASV). Jesus consistently taught that true faith continues, remains faithful, and endures to the end.

Repent before its too late, you follow the wide path! what I wrote sounds harsh but its from the knowledge imparted to me by the Holy spirit, I am serious.

How does brining forth fruit equate to a matter of salvation. You're subjectively mixing things together. Where's the integrity in that?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

But you are given discernment

Are you saying the Lord reveals to you who is saved and who is not? Who are you that He would do that?

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

Interesting.

Can you explain, then, why Paul's Gospel in Acts 15:1-4 contains no instruction whatsoever for water baptism for remission of sins for salvation, compared to that of Peter and the twelve in Acts 2:38, which DID contain the command to be water baptized for their remission of sins?



I've given to you above in this posting the contrasting references for your study. Please let me know your thoughts.

MM

BTW
Why did Paul all ow the jailer and his household to be baptised?
Who instricted them to be?
They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised.Acts16:31&32

 

[Thaddeus]

Are you saying the Lord reveals to you who is saved and who is not? Who are you that He would do that?

MM

The Lord gives us discernment, to know that certain actions by some mean they are not saved

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul baptised a few. He didn't say he was wrong to do so.

That's a straw man argument. I never even hinted at water baptism being wrong. I said that Peter preached it as a matter of salvation where Paul did not. How can that be one and the same gospel message? That's what I'm trying to understand about your perspective on all this.

He himself was baptised.
Do you think Paul baptised in error when he was in ministry?

I know what Paul later said about water baptism:

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

John the Baptist would never said such a thing because he was indeed sent to baptize, but water baptism was under the Kingdom Gospel, not Paul's Gospel of Grace for us today. I've shown that to you with references, and you appear to be resisting scripture's very declarations. Those who want to be water baptized, that's fine. I have no problem with that, but when they claim we today are saved by it, that's where they stand in contradiction to the scriptures because they are boasting.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Jesus left the baptising to his disciples.
Could you answer the questions please pertaining to Gal2:17&18

Thank you

 

[Musicmaster]

BTW
Why did Paul all ow the jailer and his household to be baptised?
Who instricted them to be?
They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised.Acts16:31&32

Please read that context more carefully without injecting into it what isn't there.

Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Paul said nothing about the water baptism coming later was the mechanism for their salvation. He simply said BELIEVE.

Again, please read that all carefully for what it says without assuming into what is not stated. BELIEVE...FAITH. THAT is the mechanism for salvation under Paul's Gospel of Grace. The work of water baptism as an act of showing their fidelity with the death and burial of Christ Jesus, which is today practices by many, only the ignorant believe they were saved by it. Belief in salvation by works is not salvation at all. Paul made that abundantly clear.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

Please read that context more carefully without injecting into it what isn't there.

Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Paul said nothing about the water baptism coming later was the mechanism for their salvation. He simply said BELIEVE.

Again, please read that all carefully for what it says without assuming into what is not stated. BELIEVE...FAITH. THAT is the mechanism for salvation under Paul's Gospel of Grace. The work of water baptism as an act of showing their fidelity with the death and burial of Christ Jesus, which is today practices by many, only the ignorant believe they were saved by it. Belief in salvation by works is not salvation at all. Paul made that abundantly clear.

MM

Im not inserting anything that is not there, only what is.
Ive been very fair at addressing your questions
Gal2:17&18 please
I want to see how well you understand Paul's core message

 

[Thaddeus]

Please read that context more carefully without injecting into it what isn't there.

Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Paul said nothing about the water baptism coming later was the mechanism for their salvation. He simply said BELIEVE.

Again, please read that all carefully for what it says without assuming into what is not stated. BELIEVE...FAITH. THAT is the mechanism for salvation under Paul's Gospel of Grace. The work of water baptism as an act of showing their fidelity with the death and burial of Christ Jesus, which is today practices by many, only the ignorant believe they were saved by it. Belief in salvation by works is not salvation at all. Paul made that abundantly clear.

MM

Here it is again if you missed it:
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18

Can you answer some questions pertaining to the passage please

Justification is instantaneous when someone accepts Christ as their saviour. The justification Paul is writing about clearly takes time to be seen. What justification is he writing about?
Why does he ask the question:
Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?
And what does he mean when he states:
Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus left the baptising to his disciples.
Could you answer the questions please pertaining to Gal2:17&18

Thank you

Galatians 2:17-18
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

That passage and its context say nothing about loss of salvation.

Why?

Simply stated, for scripture teach the polar opposite to what salvati0on entails, the Bible would be contradictory and without truth.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Galatians 2, where do you ever see any mention of one becoming unsealed by Holy Spirit, and where do you ever see the concept of the Father forfeiting His own Holy Spirit by withdrawing salvation from anyone? Given that Holy Spirit is given as the EARNEST, the idea of the Lord forfeiting His Spirit is indeed an evil thought for anyone to entertain, even on the basis of ignorance.

All I can do is make an appeal that you read scripture carefully for what it states, reading each word, word for word, observe the grammatical constructs, and accept what is stated without injections, also observing what is NOT said that tends to arise from the basis of assumption and from the falsehoods of so many false teaching pastors.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

Galatians 2:17-18
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

That passage and its context say nothing about loss of salvation.

Why?

Simply stated, for scripture teach the polar opposite to what salvati0on entails, the Bible would be contradictory and without truth.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Galatians 2, where do you ever see any mention of one becoming unsealed by Holy Spirit, and where do you ever see the concept of the Father forfeiting His own Holy Spirit by withdrawing salvation from anyone? Given that Holy Spirit is given as the EARNEST, the idea of the Lord forfeiting His Spirit is indeed an evil thought for anyone to entertain, even on the basis of ignorance.

All I can do is make an appeal that you read scripture carefully for what it states, reading each word, word for word, observe the grammatical constructs, and accept what is stated without injections, also observing what is NOT said that tends to arise from the basis of assumption and from the falsehoods of so many false teaching pastors.

MM

You haven't answered any of the questions pertaining to the passage. Why not?

 

[Musicmaster]

Here it is again if you missed it:
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18

I'm not seeing the correlation. Your question makes no sense to me because I don't promote what you're question seems to be accusing. Of course Christ did not promote sin. He paid the price for the penalty of our sins. So, what are you trying to say?

Can you answer some questions pertaining to the passage please

Justification is instantaneous when someone accepts Christ as their saviour. The justification Paul is writing about clearly takes time to be seen. What justification is he writing about?

The Greek of the word translated "justified" in that passage and that verse is defined as this, "to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable." (Thayer's Greek Lexicon) We are made righteous on an instantaneous basis at the moment we believe in the gospel. We are then justified. How? Simply this:

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus because of my faith. Yes. We all are a part of that. So, please clarify your meaning in all this.

Why does he ask the question:
Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?

I'm still not understanding the basis of your question. How can I answer other than to say that Christ does NOT promote sin. Will you not take YES for an answer in that I'm in agreement with you on that point?

And what does he mean when he states:
Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.

The basis of this is what's important, and that you have thus far refused to answer. Where is salvation anywhere impled or outright stated in that context in relation to any promotion of sin? Our justification is established on the basis of faith, not performance.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

I'm not seeing the correlation. Your question makes no sense to me because I don't promote what you're question seems to be accusing. Of course Christ did not promote sin. He paid the price for the penalty of our sins. So, what are you trying to say?



The Greek of the word translated "justified" in that passage and that verse is defined as this, "to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable." (Thayer's Greek Lexicon) We are made righteous on an instantaneous basis at the moment we believe in the gospel. We are then justified. How? Simply this:

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus because of my faith. Yes. We all are a part of that. So, please clarify your meaning in all this.



I'm still not understanding the basis of your question. How can I answer other than to say that Christ does NOT promote sin. Will you not take YES for an answer in that I'm in agreement with you on that point?



The basis of this is what's important, and that you have thus far refused to answer. Where is salvation anywhere impled or outright stated in that context in relation to any promotion of sin? Our justification is established on the basis of faith, not performance.

MM

I did not expect you to answer the first two questions, but possibly the third

 

[2Christ]

You do give up easily it seems.



Why ignore to whom He was speaking? Can you find anywhere that Paul instructed the same under his gospel given to Him by that same Christ, but AFTER the fall of Israel, the very Israel to whom Christ preached before our fall?



Yes, the REWARD of the crown of life. Where do you see salvation in that?



Again, why are you injecting salvation into that?



How does brining forth fruit equate to a matter of salvation. You're subjectively mixing things together. Where's the integrity in that?

MM

Continue to mock scripture and see where it leads you. Our lives are extremely short on this earth. God is immortal and knows our heart. Remember the book of Life! names can be blotted out! Repent! the gates are about to be shut! after that it will be too late you are warned, on this I leave you to your own devices since you wont listen. I will not be back on this thread but i wish you well, just listen sometimes to others and listen to every word Christ left for us, they are the way to eternal life, He is the Living water, No substitute permitted only through him! listen to Him!

Revelation 22:17​

“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” – Revelation 22:17

Jesus is the water of Life

 

[TMS]

What's the difference???

The Law is the written standard.

Good works is doing them.


We can read them and understand them and know all about the law of God but that means nothing if you are not obeying them.

We can't obey them in our own power but by the Spirit of God in us we can.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

You will know which Spirit you are obeying.

Rom 8:6-9
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans2:13 has already been addressed. From your post I assume you did not read my response concerning it.

Saying that I need to include Rom2:12 when quoting Romans 2:13 does not address Romans 2:13. Again, in regard to Romans 2:12, it is far preferable to be judged by the Law of God than to perish. I did read your response and did not see why you thought Romans 2:12 should be included in what I said about Romans 2:13.

''''It would be absurd to interpret Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. ''''

Rom7:14-24 is a continuation of 7-11. The commandment being transgressed is coveting. I don't think we can continue this conversation much longer due to your statement, the gulf is far too wide.

Paul spoke about both the Law of God and the law of sin throughout Romans 7, so the fact that Paul used the command against coveting as an example does not mean that he did not also speak about the law of sin.

Sin is the transgression of the law. So if sin shall no longer be your master, transgressing God's laws shall no longer be your master. As Saul could faultlessly obey the non moral law, the only way sin could be his master is according to the moral law, mainly of the ten commandments

The Law of God is not the law where sin is our master, but rather the law of sin is the law where sin is our master while the Law of God is the law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness is our master (Romans 7:12). Paul did not mention anything about needing to faultlessly obey the non moral law. The Law of God leads us to do what is holy righteous and good while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5). A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is not holy, righteous, and good.

Your comment about Paul delighting in sin was also addressed. Once again I doubt you read it due to your statement.

I read your comment, but it did not explain why it is not absurd to think that Paul delighted in a law that stirred up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death.

When Jesus walked this earth, he told the people they were evil and NOT ONE OF THEM obeyed the law.
If you are under the law you are under righteousness of obeying the law. According to Paul, to be under righteousness of obeying the law requires perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11)

Jesus criticizing the people that he was speaking to is not speaking about everyone. It has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Law of God to try to become righteous as the result, so it is not true that those who under the it are unrighteousness of obeying it.

In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of having perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. If someone repents and returns to obedience to the Law of God, then they can continue to do everything it without coming under its curse, so Paul was not saying that we need to have perfect obedience in order to avoid being cursed. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience but on whether we choose to serve God or to chase after other gods. While everyone in the OT fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being cursed does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

In Rom2:14&15 Paul tells us if gentiles had never known of biblical law they can show the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. Would you have known the requirements of the law without having read of biblical law?
Im sorry, but you are far from understanding Paul's message on this subject, too far for us to continue. But thank you for your posts.

In Romans 2:14-15, it does not say that Gentiles had never known or read the law but that they did not have it. Having the law refers to having physical possession of a Torah scroll. Jews are in charge of copying, maintaining, and teaching from Torah scrolls, so if a Gentile wanted access to one then they needed to go through Jews to do it.