OSAS, When does salvation take place?

[Gideon300]

I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.

Rubbish. The only qualification is to be born again. That's a must. And if you are born again, it is by the Spirit of God, who does not make mistakes and knows those who are His.

If you are relying on how well you obey God's laws, you are lost.

Why is it so hard to understand that there is a New Covenant with God, sealed with the precious blood of Christ, that replaces the Law that came through Moses? Lord Jesus indeed said, "Do this and you will live". Except no one keeps God's law. The only Man ever to do so is Jesus Himself. So, in your theology, only Jesus is saved.

In one sense, that is true. Jesus is the only One that pleased God perfectly. But Lord Jesus did this on behalf of sinners. God's answer is not to enforce the Law. It is to crucify us and to hide us in Christ. God no longer sees the believer in isolation. He sees us as being in Christ. How can that be? Because God Himself put us into Christ.

Paul said, "For me to live is Christ....." And that is the secret to everything to do with the Christian life. Lord Jesus came that we might have life, not the natural life we are born with, but the Life that He has in Himself. If God was to condemn the believer at the judgement, He would be condemning Himself.

The judgement of Christ is not as in a court of law. Unbelievers are judged as sinners. Believers are judged, but as in a prize giving ceremony. Some will receive great rewards, others very little.

Once we are saved, we are given a goal. Few have any idea what that entails, at least to start with. Our reward depends on how much we give up for the sake of the Kingdom of God. Some are unwilling to give up their own self will, others are prepared to give up everything for the sake of the gospel and the glory of Christ.

​

 

[legion]

I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.

I think that is splitting hairs when you accept Jesus as your personal savior you are saved. If you drop dead at that second you would be with Jesus. Thanks for Matthew 7 those would be standing there may actually be saved at that time that does not necessarily retroactively apply to everybody prior to that moment in time

the event of the second coming is a completion of the promise, but you are saved at the point of belief

I do not hold to OSAS. If so this would mean apostates will be in heaven. I believe you can throw away gods gift and turn on him... aka apostate... and by this you don't "loose" salvation, you throw the gift away.

I also disagree that baptism and communion are required for salvation that would make it works based salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

Faith: to trust in, to rely upon, to cling to, the Lord Jesus, moment by moment.

How can one think that eternal life can be lost if........One is trusting,relying upon and clinging to the Lord Jesus moment by moment?

If one is a sheep, one has eternal life. If eternal life can be lost/forfeited/walked away from.....One is not a sheep.

 

[Aussie52]

How can one think that eternal life can be lost if........One is trusting,relying upon and clinging to the Lord Jesus moment by moment?

If one is a sheep, one has eternal life. If eternal life can be lost/forfeited/walked away from.....One is not a sheep.

One was a sheep but became a goat.

 

[LTL]

How can one think that eternal life can be lost if........One is trusting,relying upon and clinging to the Lord Jesus moment by moment?

If one is a sheep, one has eternal life. If eternal life can be lost/forfeited/walked away from.....One is not a sheep.

Lucifer went down that road and was kicked out. Likewise, anyone following Lucifer is kicked out. Follow Jesus Christ.

 

[NightTwister]

One was a sheep but became a goat.

Sheep do not become goats. Goats do not become sheep. This is basic biology.

 

[Aussie52]

Sheep do not become goats. Goats do not become sheep. This is basic biology.

It's metaphor my friend, metaphor.

 

[NightTwister]

It's metaphor my friend, metaphor.

But is it?

 

[Drich]

@Drich​

Read and internalize this---

Faith Receives ----so you have to Receive Jesus in your heart to be saved ----Your receiving is the positive responsive to Salvation

You seem to have no understanding what Christ's faith is ------


Strong's Concordance on Christ's Faith
Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation"

"Faith is always a response to revelation"

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by reason of existing"
"
Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for .

with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . .


Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief , . The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4

Worth repeating Folks -------and therefore distinct from human belief

We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . .

genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give .

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God.


4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty).
In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Worth Repeating Folks ------births within the receptive believer
We have free will to Accept or Reject ------God's Saving Faith

In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse

Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will
In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!

Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation"
divi"Faith is always a response to ane revelation"
"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by reason of existing"
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"
"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for .
with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . .

if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting,
you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . .

faith is not the law of mathematical probability,

"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order===

Ah, I see... You seem to be having difficulty dividing exegetical interpretation from a quote.

I was asking you to provide a quote not a commentary that supports your claim that the bible says:

Christ's Faith always requires a Positive Response -----as soon as you do as the scripture says ----the Holy Spirit comes and indwells you and you are heaven bound ----

Not your personal beliefs. Do you have a quote from the bible that says what you claim the bible says?

 

[Drich]

NT, are you playing games with these guys?

The thief on the cross had salvation the minute he accepted the Savior. It is just that simple for everyone.

Actually no was not saved by his act of belief.. The thief was not saved till Jesus judged Him as being saved. This judgement came on the heals of the theif's beliefs.

In the OP I point out the example of the thief intentionally to establish that Judgement for all of us does not have to happen on the same day/Judgment day. That this could happen at any time. As the key here is Christ deciding your eternal fate. Example: on the opposite end of the spectrum the Judgement of the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in Mat 12 demonstrates that they would be forever condemned. Again, by Christ authority and judgement.

We are, however, expected to follow him. And in that effort he continues to forgive. But there is a point of willful disobedience. So it is best not to go there. Like, to know and then willfully disengage from the Savior. Bad choice.

Stay engaged to become a better person. If you turn wicked, then comes rejection.

But most do not turn wicked. They simply disengage and lose traction. Probably from shame and so forth. Just set that aside and stay engaged. Work through the difficulty and remain close. You are his, and he will keep you.

This all works perfectly with the OP. The only difference is that in the OP I point out that salvation is not a work you can do. it is not a prayer, a declaration of faith, it has nothing to do with sacraments or your church's plan of salvation. As again salvation is not a work, but a free gift that is the bible demonstrates that it is bestowed upon us at the moment we stand before Christ in Judgement whether that judgement come in this life or in the next. Once He declares us 'saved' we will always be saved.

 

[Drich]

Rubbish. The only qualification is to be born again.​

Is being born again something you do, is it something you control? Is it a work that you can check off of a list to having complete the task of being born again? Perhaps a better question what role did you play in your first birth? If you had no say in your conception, or birth, what makes you think you can control this second birthing process?

Jesus in John 3 says Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Jesus is telling us The Spirit decides when and where you are born again just like the wind comes and goes where it wills so too is everyone born of the Spirit. Meaning there is no set path to be born again.

So yes, you must be born again, but one can not follow a prescribed path for this birth.

That's a must. And if you are born again, it is by the Spirit of God, who does not make mistakes and knows those who are His.​

If you are relying on how well you obey God's laws, you are lost.​

Did you not read the OP? Are you just throwing stuff out there because you are comfortable arguing the same old works based salvation points?

Also do you not realize that a works based salvation is still a "following the law" or your lost form salvation?

Why is it so hard to understand that there is a New Covenant with God, sealed with the precious blood of Christ, that replaces the Law that came through Moses? Lord Jesus indeed said, "Do this and you will live". Except no one keeps God's law. The only Man ever to do so is Jesus Himself. So, in your theology, only Jesus is saved.
In one sense, that is true. Jesus is the only One that pleased God perfectly. But Lord Jesus did this on behalf of sinners. God's answer is not to enforce the Law. It is to crucify us and to hide us in Christ. God no longer sees the believer in isolation. He sees us as being in Christ. How can that be? Because God Himself put us into Christ.

Paul said, "For me to live is Christ....." And that is the secret to everything to do with the Christian life. Lord Jesus came that we might have life, not the natural life we are born with, but the Life that He has in Himself. If God was to condemn the believer at the judgement, He would be condemning Himself.

The judgement of Christ is not as in a court of law. Unbelievers are judged as sinners. Believers are judged, but as in a prize giving ceremony. Some will receive great rewards, others very little.​

Straw man argument. I never made any of these points. Maybe go back and reread the OP if you want to have this discussion and not rehash the works based argument.

Once we are saved, we are given a goal. Few have any idea what that entails, at least to start with. Our reward depends on how much we give up for the sake of the Kingdom of God. Some are unwilling to give up their own self will, others are prepared to give up everything for the sake of the gospel and the glory of Christ.

book chapter and verse please (out of the bible.)

 

[Drich]

I think that is splitting hairs when you accept Jesus as your personal savior you are saved.

What of the men of mat 7 that I have pointed to in the OP? They clearly believed that Jesus was their Lord. Yet Christ said He NEVER knew them. So this is not a matter of back sliding. This is a matter of them believing that Jesus was their God, but are judged by Jesus as having never known them.
Despite all of their signs wonders and works for the church.

If you drop dead at that second you would be with Jesus.

Or in the case of the Lord. Lord guys, you could be on your way to hell after judgement.

Thanks for Matthew 7 those would be standing there may actually be saved at that time that does not necessarily retroactively apply to everybody prior to that moment in time

I do not understand what you mean here.

Thanks for mat 7 why?

Who would be standing there? Where is there?

why would they be saved?

Jesus condemns the men who cry out to Him 'Lord, Lord."
Why would you think this is a matter of retroacting to apply to someone before that moment in time?

Jesus starts this passage by saying "On that day" then proceeded to describe judgement day.

the event of the second coming is a completion of the promise, but you are saved at the point of belief

irrelevant. The point being made is salvation does not happen till judgement. This does not mean All judgement happens on judgement day after the resurrection. Read the OP again, I mention several examples where Jesus judges people saved or condemned while still here in this life.

The Key to this discussion is the judgement of Christ. not when He judges you.

Granted now that Jesus is back in heaven it is unlikely that judgement will happen in your life time just short of His return, but again the point I am making is salvation happens at judgement when ever that is.

I do not hold to OSAS. If so this would mean apostates will be in heaven. I believe you can throw away gods gift and turn on him... aka apostate... and by this you don't "loose" salvation, you throw the gift away.

Do you have any scriptural support for apostates in Heaven after judgement and the like?

I also disagree that baptism and communion are required for salvation that would make it works based salvation.

At this point I truly believe you are just adding things to the dicussion that you feel comfortable dicussing. As I said nothing about baptism and communion is needed for salvation. in fact I said the oppsite.

 

[Drich]

Lucifer went down that road and was kicked out. Likewise, anyone following Lucifer is kicked out. Follow Jesus Christ.

would that not be Old Heaven/Old earth?

 

[LTL]

would that not be Old Heaven/Old earth?

Lucifer's rebellion was an "in your face" kind of thing. In the open, for all to see, and it was pre-earth.

Today, many choose to follow Lucifer when they join in wickedness to hurt themselves and others. As in murder and things of that nature. These things are the opposite of the love and kindness that Jesus asks of his people.

For example, Hitler could have exported food to his neighbors instead of death and destruction. Hitler followed Lucifer in wickedness.

 

[legion]

How can one think that eternal life can be lost if........One is trusting,relying upon and clinging to the Lord Jesus moment by moment?

If one is a sheep, one has eternal life. If eternal life can be lost/forfeited/walked away from.....One is not a sheep.

I know you're not responding to me however I had a similar statement and that is it's not about losing your salvation it's about the ability you have to throw the gift away and turn on God this can be done we have free will

 

[legion]

What of the men of mat 7 that I have pointed to in the OP? They clearly believed that Jesus was their Lord. Yet Christ said He NEVER knew them. So this is not a matter of back sliding. This is a matter of them believing that Jesus was their God, but are judged by Jesus as having never known them.
Despite all of their signs wonders and works for the church.

Or in the case of the Lord. Lord guys, you could be on your way to hell after judgement.


I do not understand what you mean here.

Thanks for mat 7 why?

Who would be standing there? Where is there?

why would they be saved?

Jesus condemns the men who cry out to Him 'Lord, Lord."
Why would you think this is a matter of retroacting to apply to someone before that moment in time?

Jesus starts this passage by saying "On that day" then proceeded to describe judgement day.

irrelevant. The point being made is salvation does not happen till judgement. This does not mean All judgement happens on judgement day after the resurrection. Read the OP again, I mention several examples where Jesus judges people saved or condemned while still here in this life.

The Key to this discussion is the judgement of Christ. not when He judges you.

Granted now that Jesus is back in heaven it is unlikely that judgement will happen in your life time just short of His return, but again the point I am making is salvation happens at judgement when ever that is.

Do you have any scriptural support for apostates in Heaven after judgement and the like?

At this point I truly believe you are just adding things to the dicussion that you feel comfortable dicussing. As I said nothing about baptism and communion is needed for salvation. in fact I said the oppsite.

Aside from faith alone and believe that Jesus is who he says he is is the only requirement for salvation once you process through this you can die and be saved and be with Jesus

And no apostates don't make it to Heaven which actually means that somebody who was saved and turned on God no longer has no salvation that was my point not that there will be prostates in heaven

 

[legion]

I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This is not evidence of not being saved until the end. This is an example of someone who thinks they know jesus, but have not been doing the will of the father and simply are not saved..
. N

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

The thief on the cross met Jesus after death in Paradise there are two Paradise mentioned in scripture one is a reference to a place in heaven the other is a reference to a place called Paradise in the domain of hell which was a holding area because nobody can get into heaven until Jesus died and was resurrected

I encourage you to look up each of those words for paradise and see what is actually being said

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

That's right if you are under the law then the way to do it is to perform the law perfectly which would result in loving God and loving Thy Neighbor which is the Fulfillment of the law since only Jesus could do that he was literally pointing at himself as the means to an end for salvation

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.

Just as salvation is a free gift we can choose with our free will to throw that free gift in the trash give God the finger and walk away and make no mistake I'm not referring to those obscure verses that suggest that you weren't saved in the first place I'm referring to somebody who is actually saved turning on God and throwing away their salvation we have free will

 

[Kroogz]

I know you're not responding to me however I had a similar statement and that is it's not about losing your salvation it's about the ability you have to throw the gift away and turn on God this can be done we have free will

Eternal life.......If we could lose/walk away/forfeit/throw it away?........The Lord Jesus Christ is in possible jeopardy.

Col 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Have you not heard that you are not your own after salvation?

1 Cor 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?


Freewill is all over in His word. Freewill to believe and be saved. Freewill to advance in that salvation. Freewill to blow it in that salvation........But never is there an instance to "throw" eternal life away.

 

[legion]

Eternal life.......If we could lose/walk away/forfeit/throw it away?........The Lord Jesus Christ is in possible jeopardy.

Col 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Have you not heard that you are not your own after salvation?

1 Cor 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?


Freewill is all over in His word. Freewill to believe and be saved. Freewill to advance in that salvation. Freewill to blow it in that salvation........But never is there an instance to "throw" eternal life away.

Okay so what happens to the person who is truly saved and then through some bad event decides "screw God I hate him and I want to worship the devil and screw everything"

And then proceeds to lead a life of corrupt and Evil before ever returning as a prodigal son and dies.

Because let me tell you living a life of sin and Corruption at least in terms of the flesh is a lot more fun than trying to be an adherent to a Christian faith so why not just get saved hey I believe in Jesus I believe in who he says he is blah blah blah blah and then walk the other direction

And to make sure you know what I'm talking about before you start quoting verses out of context I am talking about somebody who actually was saved and use their free will to tell God to kiss off is that person going to be in heaven

 

[Kroogz]

Okay so what happens to the person who is truly saved and then through some bad event decides "screw God I hate him and I want to worship the devil and screw everything"

And then proceeds to lead a life of corrupt and Evil before ever returning as a prodigal son and dies.

Because let me tell you living a life of sin and Corruption at least in terms of the flesh is a lot more fun than trying to be an adherent to a Christian faith so why not just get saved hey I believe in Jesus I believe in who he says he is blah blah blah blah and then walk the other direction

And to make sure you know what I'm talking about before you start quoting verses out of context I am talking about somebody who actually was saved and use their free will to tell God to kiss off is that person going to be in heaven

Loss of salvation or "throwing it away" is always for the other Guy. Never for YOU.

You are throwing it away and telling God "Kiss off "just by believing in loss of salvation.......All by your freewill.


A corrupt and evil life......By self righteousness. Looks good, sounds good...but evil to the core.