Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

Really? What about the indigenous people in the New World who lived and died and never heard about Jesus or the Bible?

Round and round we go.

 

[Roger316]

The discussion was of Joel 2:12 specifically which you used it as a corroboration for your statement of Jews being called to meet in Jerusalem.. We were not discussing the whole book of Joel only that particular verse.

I don't see why it matters, but okay. Did you look up any of the other passages? Just curious. I mentioned Joel 2:12 because it verbalizes God's call for the people to return to him. We can understand this as a general call to all human beings to repent and turn to God in thanksgiving and worship. But in the context, not only is God asking Israel to turn their hearts toward him, he is asking Israel to return to Jerusalem together as a people.

This is why I drew your attention to the book's context, because there we find the heart of Joel.

It was initiated by this statement from you:
"Do I? How many Gentiles are called to meet in Jerusalem?"

I said:
"which verses are you referring to?"

You said:
"Do a word search in the Bible for the term "survivors." Notice what Isaiah and Ezekiel say about them. I mentioned the book of Joel so I offer the following verse: Joel 2:12"

Right. I mentioned four prophets who each teach that Israel will gather in Jerusalem and God will protect them there.

I said
"That occurred under the Old Covenant and was works based. It was replaced in total, along with earthly Israel, through Christ, by the New Covenant.

Frankly, I don't understand what you are saying here at all. While it is true that Israel was supposed to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate certain festivals, this is much different than that. The prophets are not predicting a celebration. They are predicting an event that will devastate the land with armies of fire. Only those who leave home and come to Jerusalem will survive.

I hear your request to drop the subject, but I don't think we properly addressed the issue raised earlier: the unbiblical belief that God is done with natural Israel.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

Again, if we neglect to teach in the Gospel, who Jesus specifically died for, and what it actually finished/accomplished, you preach a false gospel.

Again, those who teach Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world are claiming God lied in His Word.

People teaching such are clearly tares and agents of darkness seeing they deny the plain reading of scripture

This is how we know people doing this sort of thing are reprobate and no longer able to be reached with the Truth of God's Word as they have made up their own "truth" which they got by listening to the devil explain how what God said is not true.

This is a false message

That's what satan keeps trying to get everyone to believe that what God says in His Word is a lie

Really? What about the indigenous people in the New World who lived and died and never heard about Jesus or the Bible?

Hey, I didn't write the Bible.

Go argue with the Lord and explain to Him that He told a falsehood in His Word that He failed to do what He said.

 

[pinebeach]

This gives me such appreciation of how so truly refreshing sound logic actually is. Thank you. Thank you, very much.

You're welcome!

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

The calvinists will engage in word play and subterfuge in their pathetic attempts to discredit the TRUTH of God's Word:

1 John 2:2
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

 

[Cameron143]

We already went through the meaning of this passage in context, and it has nothing to do with being consigned to hell.

Take your own for advice for goodness sake so you will no longer be teaching a false Gospel, it is quite important!!

No you didn't if this is your conclusion.

 

[Cameron143]

Round and round we go.

Right, because you and others make false statements and when they are shown to be false, you continue to regurgitate them.

 

[rogerg]

I don't see why it matters, but okay. Did you look up any of the other passages?

No, I don't accept assignments. If you want do discuss something, then post it specifically along with your point

 

[Cameron143]

Again, those who teach Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world are claiming God lied in His Word.

People teaching such are clearly tares and agents of darkness seeing they deny the plain reading of scripture

This is how we know people doing this sort of thing are reprobate and no longer able to be reached with the Truth of God's Word as they have made up their own "truth" which they got by listening to the devil explain how what God said is not true.




That's what satan keeps trying to get everyone to believe that what God says in His Word is a lie





Hey, I didn't write the Bible.

Go argue with the Lord and explain to Him that He told a falsehood in His Word that He failed to do what He said.

I just showed you that your understanding of scripture is flawed. Nothing wrong with scripture.

 

[Roger316]

Please post which verses of Rom 11 to which are you referring

This is what I don't get. Why do you ask me about verses that you can read yourself? Perhaps you can sense a bit of frustration in my writing, but I study with a group of men, and whenever one of us mentions a passage, we all know what is being said there even before we open our Bibles.

Nevertheless, Paul is talking about natural Israel when he writes: Romans 11:11-16. Paul conceives of two distinct categories of people: the Jews as individuals and Israel as a nation.

Jews as individuals Romans 11:1-10
In the first half of Romans 11, Paul addresses the question of the Jewish people. We know this because he uses the term "people, he speaks of himself as an individual, and he mentions his tribe. He will also argue that God always reserves a remnant of his people who don't practice idolatry.

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

The nation taken as a whole Romans 11:11-16
In the middle of Romans 11, Paul addresses his nation, Israel, not to say that God created another, spiritual Israel, but to argue that although the nation of Israel put the Messiah to death, they did not stumble so as to fall. His analogy is based on a common hazard in his time: rocks sticking up above the road that caused people to trip and fall. Did his nation trip and fall? Did God reject his nation because they went too far? Paul argues no. What they did to Jesus turned out to be riches for the world -- forgiveness of sins etc.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

I just showed you that your understanding of scripture is flawed. Nothing wrong with scripture.

Actually you showed me the twisted understanding that comes from darkness instead of God's Word.

You refuse to accept all the Lord says in His Word and I suspect you will continue in said darkness.

To agree with you, I would have to claim the scriptures below are all lies:
You're on you own bud!

1 John 2:2
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

 

[pinebeach]

Wrong as usual. Calvinists follow Calvin. She follows Christ. And if you understood grace and the power of God, you too would understand why grace is irresistible.

You folks loose cred by the way you respond to people here who do not follow the ancient evil of 'did God really say' Of course, you follow only the Bible, twisted and all done up to resemble some 'harmless' bit of superior knowledge that only select chosen by God follow or having knowledge of since, unlike normal sinners, God inserted His Spirit into you so that the light would go on.
The rest of us are aware that we need to understand our hopeless position without God, repent and accept Christ into our lives.

Wrong as usual? And you say that simply because you disagree. Perhaps it is you who is wrong as usual.

If you understood grace etc. Now that's really a low blow designed to instigate yet another arguement by the very nature of its
false certainty that begs a comeback of similar false accusation. The fact her is much simpler. We do not accept your understanding and vice versa.

This is how this thread has gone on as long as it has. Accusations are thrown around like an irresistible invitation to argue. The fact is, this is a manufacture practiced by those who say they are not Calvinists, but maintain a strict observance over those beliefs nonetheless, declaring their own 'studies' have led them to understand, that while they will not call themselvs Calvinists, they
have come upon the same error. As Calvinists.

If total depravity is true, then irresistible grace is essential because people aren’t able to respond to God’s call unless He draws them with his irresistible grace. On the other hand, if total depravity isn’t true, then irresistible grace is unnecessary. In other words, the doctrine of Calvinism is set up in such a way as to only make sense if one believes all 5 points, excluding the fact the
Bible does not support all 5 points, especially, total depravity.

It's kind of like using a pitchfork in your backside to get you back on track should you think for one moment outside of the framework that does not allow questionning.

I guess I see a response such as this post, as simple baiting with the ill intent of avoiding the actual responsibility of a well thought out answer. This is a tactic that has been used by this poster and another throughout this thread in the defence of something they insist they are not actually a part of.

 

[rogerg]

Frankly, I don't understand what you are saying here at all. While it is true that Israel was supposed to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate certain festivals, this is much different than that. The prophets are not predicting a celebration. They are predicting an event that will devastate the land with armies of fire. Only those who leave home and come to Jerusalem will survive.

I hear your request to drop the subject, but I don't think we properly addressed the issue raised earlier: the unbiblical belief that God is done with natural Israel.

Oh, believe me, that's fine with me. What I am saying is that there are TWO covenants, not one. The first is works based and contingent upon the satisfying of its stipulations and requirements by those under it; the second has been unilaterally satisified by God on the behalf of those whom He places under it. They need do nothing to be chosen for it nor to remain under it, God perfectly satisfied it all on their behalf. Therefore, when you find a verse in Scripture, that demands action from anyone under it to become saved or to remain saved, such as Joel 2:12 (and surrounding verses) by that demand, you can know it is because those being addressed are being addressed under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. Were it possible for it to be otherwise, then that would make the savior would not a Savior.
Do you understand the difference between Old and New Covenants? It's really simple - man is responsible under the Old; God is responsible under the New - as simple as that.

 

[Roger316]

The Good News is what God has done to reconcile man to Himself; not what man does in response.

I don't understand that. I can imagine a true believer lying on his back in an iron lung with nothing to do all day but stare up at the ceiling. The gospel is certainly good news for him. But I don't envy his inability to do nothing. I can't imagine he would regret it if he was miraculously healed so that he could put his faith into practice.

I think it is good news that people in my church genuinely love, pray for, encourage, and forgive each other, with younger women teaching older women, and men having Bible studies together etc. I can think of a thousand different ways in which people live out their faith and work out their salvation, and to me, it is ALL good news.

Again, I can't imagine anyone would agree that faith in Jesus Christ is nothing but a mental attitude.

 

[Cameron143]

Actually you showed me the twisted understanding that comes from darkness instead of God's Word.

You refuse to accept all the Lord says in His Word and I suspect you will continue in said darkness.

To agree with you, I would have to claim the scriptures below are all lies:
You're on you own bud!

1 John 2:2
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

Nope. You would simply need to understand those scriptures in light of what the whole of scripture reveals.

We can start with the first one. You believe world refers to every person ever created or conceived. If that were accurate, universal salvation would be the result. If you don't believe in universalism, perhaps there is another understanding of world in the verse. Perhaps it means as Revelation 7:9 says... of all nation, and kindred, and peoples, and tongues...

 

[rogerg]

I hear your request to drop the subject, but I don't think we properly addressed the issue raised earlier: the unbiblical belief that God is done with natural Israel.

God is done with the earthly nation of Israel as His special, cherished nation for the reasons I described to you previously. If you think otherwise, then post the verses you have in mind with explanations

By the way, the reason I suggested to end it was to try to be considerate to you and not push it, not because I
was hesitant to engage in further discussion

 

[pinebeach]

Nope. You would simply need to understand those scriptures in light of what the whole of scripture reveals.

Nope. You would simply need to understand those scriptures in the light of one of the greates enemies of the actual gospel

I know what you wrote, but it needs a little translating Just trying to help

 

[Cameron143]

You folks loose cred by the way you respond to people here who do not follow the ancient evil of 'did God really say' Of course, you follow only the Bible, twisted and all done up to resemble some 'harmless' bit of superior knowledge that only select chosen by God follow or having knowledge of since, unlike normal sinners, God inserted His Spirit into you so that the light would go on.
The rest of us are aware that we need to understand our hopeless position without God, repent and accept Christ into our lives.

Wrong as usual? And you say that simply because you disagree. Perhaps it is you who is wrong as usual.

If you understood grace etc. Now that's really a low blow designed to instigate yet another arguement by the very nature of its
false certainty that begs a comeback of similar false accusation. The fact her is much simpler. We do not accept your understanding and vice versa.

This is how this thread has gone on as long as it has. Accusations are thrown around like an irresistible invitation to argue. The fact is, this is a manufacture practiced by those who say they are not Calvinists, but maintain a strict observance over those beliefs nonetheless, declaring their own 'studies' have led them to understand, that while they will not call themselvs Calvinists, they
have come upon the same error. As Calvinists.

If total depravity is true, then irresistible grace is essential because people aren’t able to respond to God’s call unless He draws them with his irresistible grace. On the other hand, if total depravity isn’t true, then irresistible grace is unnecessary. In other words, the doctrine of Calvinism is set up in such a way as to only make sense if one believes all 5 points, excluding the fact the
Bible does not support all 5 points, especially, total depravity.

It's kind of like using a pitchfork in your backside to get you back on track should you think for one moment outside of the framework that does not allow questionning.

I guess I see a response such as this post, as simple baiting with the ill intent of avoiding the actual responsibility of a well thought out answer. This is a tactic that has been used by this poster and another throughout this thread in the defence of something they insist they are not actually a part of.

I defend truth, not individuals. And if you were a little more discerning and self aware, you might just apply your standards to yourself.

Grace and peace.

 

[pinebeach]

Seriously,

Yes. Would you please read your Bible. Obviously you have not done so and mr C knows that because you do not agree with his presentations

 

[Cameron143]

I don't understand that. I can imagine a true believer lying on his back in an iron lung with nothing to do all day but stare up at the ceiling. The gospel is certainly good news for him. But I don't envy his inability to do nothing. I can't imagine he would regret it if he was miraculously healed so that he could put his faith into practice.

I think it is good news that people in my church genuinely love, pray for, encourage, and forgive each other, with younger women teaching older women, and men having Bible studies together etc. I can think of a thousand different ways in which people live out their faith and work out their salvation, and to me, it is ALL good news.

Again, I can't imagine anyone would agree that faith in Jesus Christ is nothing but a mental attitude.

All of that is fine but off point. The gospel is the good news concerning what God has done to reconcile man to Himself. It is not about what people do in response to what God has done.