Calvinism is Gospel !

[Bible_Locket]

Are you a JW? All Bibles but yours have been perverted? Figures.

Have they earlier stated they are Jehovah Witness?

I think it would help to avoid confusion if our profile had the option of choosing to identify ourselves by Denomination.

 

[Magenta]

Have they earlier stated they are Jehovah Witness?

I think it would help to avoid confusion if our profile had the option of choosing to identify ourselves by Denomination.

They called a slew Bible references perverted.

I asked if they were JW and did not see an answer.

Did you? I also asked if they were Catholic.

They share some of the same beliefs.

Likewise when asked if they'd been here before.

Did you see an answer to that question?

Many are banned and come back, thus breaking the rules.

One of our naysayers has her profile deleted every so often and then returns under a new name.

Nobody can properly search her history that way.

 

[Bible_Locket]

you find excuses Magenta

That reply is trying to change the subject.

The claim was: there is no verse showing human choice.
That is already answered by the clear words of Scripture where God commands, invites, warns, and even grieves over rejection. Those actions only make sense if real response is possible.

But now a second claim is added: that people are so opposed to God that they cannot choose at all. The Bible does not speak that way.

Yes, Scripture says the human heart is often corrupt and resistant. But it also shows that God still speaks to that very same person and expects a response. Both truths appear together: man can resist, and man is still responsible.

Jesus said:

If any man willeth to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God. (John 7:17)

Jesus does not say “no one can will.” He says a person can choose to seek God’s will or reject it.

He also said:

Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. (John 5:40)

He does not say “you cannot.” He says “you will not.” That is resistance, not incapacity.

And again:

How often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

The blame is placed on refusal, not inability.

The Old Testament says the same:

Choose you this day whom ye will serve. (Joshua 24:15)

Why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 18:31)

God does not speak to people as machines. He speaks to them as accountable hearers who can respond.

So the real issue is not whether man is sometimes hostile to God. Scripture already agrees he is. The issue is the conclusion being drawn from that hostility. Hostility does not erase responsibility. Refusal is still refusal. A command is still meaningful. A call to repent is still genuine.

The argument collapses here: if a person being “opposed to God” meant they had no ability to respond, then every command of God becomes meaningless. Yet God continues to command, call, and hold people accountable throughout Scripture.

That is not contradiction in the Bible. It is consistency: people can resist God, and still be called to turn back.
you warned someone a few post back that many accuse others, well well you just did that, how surprising, you do it all the time!

Beautiful horse.

Here's a paradox of seemingly contradictory factors in scripture.

If,as He tells us in His word, God is completely in control of history and all reality, how do you defend your insistence that humans are fully accountable for their choices?

 

[HeIsHere]

The burden of proof is not on those who believe Scripture teaches human choice. The burden is on anyone claiming that God commands people to do what they are completely incapable of choosing to do.

Good post, you will just be told choice and free will are not the same at though anybody can define the difference between them in practical terms.

What is plainly obvious is the sacrosanct false doctrine of being born unable to respond positively to the Good News, even it means traveling into the land of absurdism to deny it.

 

[2Christ]

How would you define God's calling? Are you aware of when God put a call on your life?
Some here deny being called out of the world, though they say they are Christian. Such
disparities strike me as odd and tell me they have little to no spiritual discernment.
Likewise some seem to have head knowledge devoid of direct experience, which they
mock and scoff, and try to shame those who have a personal relationship with God.

Like the one who says God would be unfair if He were to reveal Himself to one any differently
than to another. Such declarations make it look like they have not read the Bible at all!
Yet they consider themselves an excellent researcher and qualified to teach.

The key point Jesus gives is this:

For many are called, but few chosen. (Matthew 22:14, ASV)

The focus is not on private experiences or feeling “more called” than others, but on how people respond to God’s invitation.

Who are the “many”? Jesus explains it in the same teaching. The call goes out widely:

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations… (Matthew 28:19, ASV)

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28, ASV)

The call is given broadly to all people who hear the message of Christ.

But not all respond the same way. Some accept, some refuse, some start and fall away. That is why Jesus says many are called, but few are chosen.

So the real measure is not claiming a special inner status, but whether a person hears Him and follows:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27, ASV)

 

[Bible_Locket]

They called a slew Bible references perverted.

I asked if they were JW and did not see an answer.

Did you?

Likewise when asked if they'd been here before.

Did you see an answer to that question?

Many are banned and come back, thus breaking the rules.

One of our naysayers has her profile deleted every so often and then returns under a new name.

Nobody can properly search her history that way.

I asked because I thought they may have said earlier they were JW,and I missed it.

Who is the her,that you are referring to here?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Yeah, satan is been twisting what the Lord said thru Paul for a long time claiming faith is not a good work but it actually is.

Faith without works is not saving faith (corresponding action as though one actually believes what they claim they believe)

There's a reason why the heretic Martin Luther falsely claimed the Book of James was of the devil.

Luther claimed that because HE was of the devil.

It seemed as if Martin Luther was initially stirred, by a real hunger for God. Unfortunately, he was eventually deceived, first by an evil anti-semetic spirit which drove him to kick them out of their homes, take possession of their lands and crops. After that, Luther he set his eyes on other independent Christian groups who were living in Germany such as the Mennonites and Anabaptists. Luther led mobs into their villages exterminating them by drowning and burning them alive. I have yet to find any evidence that Luther ever repented of his sins yet many Lutherans still defend him or at least they downplay his actions.

The Apostle John writing about this kind of thind said:
…14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
(1 John 3:14-15)

 

[Magenta]

The call is given broadly to all people who hear the message of Christ.

Not everybody hears. Why do I have to keep repeating this very salient fact?

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Cameron143]

are you saying God forces a choice on people

Nope. Faith isn't a choice. It exists or it doesn't.

 

[WayneNSO]

Do you pick what clothes you are going to wear for the day? Or does God force that on you also ?

 

[Magenta]

you warned someone a few post back that many accuse others, well well you just did that, how surprising, you do it all the time!

What did I falsely accuse someone of?

Please show me the post. Or is this just another false accusation???

Telling the truth about what someone says is not the same as someone lying.

Do you know the difference? I do.

 

[Magenta]

Nope. Faith isn't a choice. It exists or it doesn't.

Force is a favourite go-to of these folks.

I wonder how they see Jonah, or even Paul.

Do they say God forced them?

Why continue saying God is an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people
against their so-called "free will" if He acts unilaterally in matters of salvation?

Of course that gets denied also. We are told divine intervention is not even required.

 

[2Christ]

Here the discussion revolves around what Scripture says of the natural man being a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light as a God-hater taken captive to do the will of the devil, opposed to the spiritual things of God, which he can neither receive nor comprehend, but yet we have many here contradicting and denying what Scripture says of the natural man. They claim the man of flesh, flesh within which nothing good exists, which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, will decide with his incurably wicked heart to believe what he hears as foolishness. They are not above rewriting verses to make them say what they want even if it is Jesus' words they are butchering. In short, they have put a philosophical construct before the Truth explicitly articulated in Scripture. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that are true only of the spiritual man, and then to prop up this error, pretend the natural man is a carnal Christian and not the man who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God.

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life, and is unable to submit to or obey God. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophers and philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to parrot what they hear and throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. It becomes obvious they make no distinction between the two and worse, some have no idea that there even is a distinction.

What you say revolves around a verse from apostle Paul like no one else ever mentioned anything about Choice, God does Give us the choice I have proved it with clear verses from scripture

Can Paul contradict scripture? NO! So why do you say differently from what is clearly written. About mundane choice, is following the teaching of Jesus frivolous? the Holy spirit makes everything possible Magenta, listen to Jesus above all else, his words are eternal life, don't miss out.

 

[WayneNSO]

Someone should start a new thread called, "Whats the difference between the fruits of the spirit and a fruitcake" ?

 

[Cameron143]

Do you pick what clothes you are going to wear for the day? Or does God force that on you also ?

Whether we eat or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.

I think choosing what to wear falls under this.

 

[WayneNSO]

Whether we eat or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.

I think choosing what to wear falls under this.

So you can still wear flairs and say God made me do it ?

 

[Bible_Locket]

It seemed as if Martin Luther was initially stirred, by a real hunger for God. Unfortunately, he was eventually deceived, first by an evil anti-semetic spirit which drove him to kick them out of their homes, take possession of their lands and crops. After that, Luther he set his eyes on other independent Christian groups who were living in Germany such as the Mennonites and Anabaptists. Luther led mobs into their villages exterminating them by drowning and burning them alive. I have yet to find any evidence that Luther ever repented of his sins yet many Lutherans still defend him or at least they downplay his actions.

The Apostle John writing about this kind of thind said:
…14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
(1 John 3:14-15)

The term, anti-Semitic didn't appear until the 19th century.

Martin Luther wasn't always opposed to the Jews.

In 1523 he wrote a treatise entitled,That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew.
This was so to rebuke the Catholic church and its anti-Judaic stance.

Years later though Martin Luther changed. Many historians surmised it was due to the lack of conversions by Jews that bouyed his frustration.

That's likely because in 1543 he wrote, On the Jews and Their Lies.

To be clear, Martin Luther did advocate banishing Jews from their homes. However, there is no evidence he undertook such a campaign or led people in the murder of Jews.

 

[HeIsHere]

Do you pick what clothes you are going to wear for the day? Or does God force that on you also ?

Faith in the Good News of Christ Jesus is the one which is prohibited... you can believe all manner of other things as longs the truth, is off limits.

God likes to keep it exclusive that is why He gave mankind this fallen nature.

 

[2Christ]

post 2962;
you wrote to me
But you mocked and scoffed that Biblical truth when presented with it before.
you do it so often you don't even realize it.

 

[Magenta]

What you say revolves around a verse from apostle Paul like no one else ever mentioned anything
about Choice, God does Give us the choice I have proved it with clear verses from scripture

Choice is not the same thing. You can choose a lot of things that have zero
to do with the will of the natural man being incapable of obeying God.

Blah blah blah choice choice choice. Context is ignored.

The man who does not have Christ does not belong to Christ. He is of the world which is unable to receive the
Spirit of Truth. Scripture says so. I know FWers do not like such verses but I cannot help that. It is explicitly articulated.