I am glad it was your keyboard and not a stoke
It looked scary for a minuteThe little horn of Daniel 7 and 8
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It looked scary for a minute
I am glad it was your keyboard and not a stoke
I know right? That's what I get for leaving my computer under the swamp cooler all night.
Nice stuff... the Prince of the host is indeed Jesus and by His sacrifice it would do away with any further need for the daily animal sacrifices.
Wow, you are the first person that I have interpreted the KON as the little horn... but I would ask you the following: In chapter 11 we see the KON at the beginning of the chapter - after 11:4 and then again near the end of the chapter. Do you see there might be an important distinction here? Both are indeed KON but the KON in the beginning of the chapter - just after the cross represents pagan Rome - this is the first phase of the 4th kingdom. Then, many events take place from 11:5 through the entire chapter and pagan Rome is slain (Daniel 7:11), and the 4th beast kingdom is now taken over by papal Rome and the little horn (evil one). What do you think?
The Christian church was a powerful institution after Constantine made the religion legal. About 50 years later it became the official religion of pagan Rome - however, it was really in name only since it looked nothing like the Apostolic church of the first century. Pagan practices, idols, heirarchial structures headed by the top bishop of Rome. But in 476 AD, pagan Rome met its demise and this powerful Christian church would no longer be subservient to Imperial Rome (now the "restrainer" had been removed and the Christian church would soon attain both civil and religious power of the previous Roman Empire). Daniel 7:11 thus tells us the 2nd phase of the 4th kingdom begins... still only 4 kingdoms within God's plan of salvation but now it moves from Imperial Rome to religious - civil power backed by the still present Roman army.
I would ask that you might consider the response above.... Octavian nor Herod are within this chapter... IMO.
Yes, this little horn is indeed told to us that he will continue until the end.. sort of helps us narrow down things!
What are your thoughts?
Okay, and we can certainly go into the details when we get to chapter 8.. if you like, but there is only one little horn and this one in chapter 8 is indeed the same one as in 7. The little horn is the papacy - represented by the pope with eyes and speaks pompous things, etc., He is distinguished from the 10 horns who are not men but powers.
I think we might be jumping too far ahead here... we might want to unpack all of chapter 7 if you do not mind...
The little horn does represent the papacy that continues for some 1500 years - and counting. We can also discuss the "deadly wound" to the 4th beast as well....that will make sense when we get there.
Okay, I don't want to be noisy, but i believe the only place in the US that uses that term "swamp cooler" is maybe in New Mexico?
During my life I have met so many smart individuals but they certainly did not all have a great sense of humor. But I really never met someone who had a great sense of humor that wasn't also smart!I am glad it was your keyboard and not a stoke
I think the little horn in Daniel 7 represents the sucession of Popes.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Those who believe in a future man of sin or anti-christ think he sits in a physical temple but the temple of God is the believers:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Pope sits in the temple of Believers and exalts himself above others - claiming he represents Christ on earth and he is infallable etc
I believe Matthew 24:26 is identifying two anti-Christ figures - one in the West and one in the East, the desert reference being Muhammad and the scret chambers the Pope. It is in the secret Chambers that the Cardinals elect a new Pope - or maybe Im stretching it here
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Those who believe in a future man of sin or anti-christ think he sits in a physical temple but the temple of God is the believers:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Pope sits in the temple of Believers and exalts himself above others - claiming he represents Christ on earth and he is infallable etc
I believe Matthew 24:26 is identifying two anti-Christ figures - one in the West and one in the East, the desert reference being Muhammad and the scret chambers the Pope. It is in the secret Chambers that the Cardinals elect a new Pope - or maybe Im stretching it here
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Very nice stuff... someone has been studying Daniel along with the NT.... There are many indivduals within this forum that seem to have a strong interest in Daniel and the end times....Daniel must be the most complicted and difficult book to unpack in all of scripture... at least 100 times more difficult than Revelation.... because one needs to understand Daniel before he could possibly unpack Revelation.I think the little horn in Daniel 7 represents the sucession of Popes.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Those who believe in a future man of sin or anti-christ think he sits in a physical temple but the temple of God is the believers:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Pope sits in the temple of Believers and exalts himself above others - claiming he represents Christ on earth and he is infallable etc
I believe Matthew 24:26 is identifying two anti-Christ figures - one in the West and one in the East, the desert reference being Muhammad and the scret chambers the Pope. It is in the secret Chambers that the Cardinals elect a new Pope - or maybe Im stretching it here
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
The only comment I might make is in regards to your Matthew comments. Here are my thoughts - only, and of course, like everything, one can accept them or reject them or discuss them...
I think that in Matthew 24:26 Jesus is warning His disciples not to be deceived by claims that the Messiah has appeared secretly in some isolated location:
“He is in the desert.”
“He is in the inner rooms.”
Meaning, that Christ’s return will not be hidden, private, or known only to a select group. The next verse explains why:
“For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matthew 24:27).
So Jesus is contrasting false, localized appearances with His true return, which will be unmistakable and publicly evident.
Perhaps “The desert” suggests someone claiming that Christ must be sought in a remote place. “The inner rooms” suggests a concealed or private manifestation. Jesus says not to go and investigate and not to believe the claim.
This also guards against any teaching that Christ has already returned invisibly and is present only through a secret individual, hidden group, or private revelation. His coming will not depend upon someone announcing, “We have found Him.” It will announce itself.
I never thought of that interpretation thank you.
About the Daniel Revelation connection - I agree and I see Daniel as part one and Revelation as part two as to how history will play out. Daniel is my Lipmus test that I refer to to stop my going astray in the Revelation, as in the succession of nations and the symbols used. Of course I also check other OT books like Isaiah and Ezekiel, because Revelation uses the symbols used in OT prophets. I do not understand anyone that just uses the NT, to me it all has to be taken as a whole.
That is how I see it as well. Doesn't put you in very good company..... I think there are only two of us! I have found that almost 80 - 90% of Daniel provides the prophecies from 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy in chapter 9. Then. all of chapter 11 is post cross - except for 11:1-4. This chapter takes us from the cross to the little horn coming to full power aroud 500 AD.
Then, if you notice in Revelation, it begins with the chapter 1 - revealing / discussion of God (time of the cross and when Jesus returns to the Father). But the next two chapters begin with the 7 churches that were established just after the cross. So Revelation picks up after the cross with details all the way to the end. Revelation is indeed the 13th chapter of Daniel - if you will.
So lets get back to the little horn. I am sure there are many questions many folks would like to discuss, agree with or disagree with.... Again, perhaps if we try and understand when the little horn comes into existence, and why he surfaces when he does, it will settle so much disagreement.
I have found the key is in chapter 2 and 7. God gives us the formal structure of where He is going to place His prophecies - that being the 4 and only 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2. Then, in chapter 7, He reveals some changes to the 4th kingdom that we must ask ourselves what they mean and why they have taken place. The two most important elements are the "coming out" of the 4th kingdom the 10 horns and then, the little horn (and this is indeed purposeful because the little horn does not become visible at the same time as the 10 horns. But if you notice that BOTH the 10 horns and the little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome BEFORE DANIEL 7:11. That verse is monumental because 7:11 tells us a specific date in history - it is 476 AD when Pagan Rome is slain. Therefore, the little horn and the 10 horns are shown in verses 7:1- 8 as already have come into existence WITHIN PAGAN ROME'S DEMISE.
I think the little horn in Daniel 7 represents the sucession of Popes.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Those who believe in a future man of sin or anti-christ think he sits in a physical temple but the temple of God is the believers:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Pope sits in the temple of Believers and exalts himself above others - claiming he represents Christ on earth and he is infallable etc
I believe Matthew 24:26 is identifying two anti-Christ figures - one in the West and one in the East, the desert reference being Muhammad and the scret chambers the Pope. It is in the secret Chambers that the Cardinals elect a new Pope - or maybe Im stretching it here
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
I cannot seen any role for the Catholic Church in prophecy, the little horn was during the first century and connected to the Roman Empire.
Would you mind offering your thoughts on this? You have made some important statements here that I would enjoy learning about.... i guess the first question I would like to ask you is, if the little horn is only connected to the first century of the Roman Empire then you might have a very good idea of his identity, when he arose, how he arose, what happened to him, etc.
Thanks so much...
Give us the Preterist viewpoint then. This will the first time we will be on opposite sides btw
But I will still be your comrade lolAlright Wayne, your going to have to let me know what is your definition of a preterist here... cause I thought you might fit that general description.... but I am not good at all with those kinds of labels....Give us the Preterist viewpoint then. This will the first time we will be on opposite sides btw
Give us the Preterist viewpoint then. This will the first time we will be on opposite sides btw
@JustThinking
I used to think it was Nero, but I am moving more towards this.. connected in the sense the zealots were trying to overthrow the Roman control.
The Ten Generals were “kings” in charge of various regions of the Holy Land (Wars, 2:20:3-4)
1. Joseph ben Gorion—fallen
2. Ananus former high priest—fallen
3. Jesus, son of Sapphias
4. Eleazar, son of Ananias
5. Niger, governor of Idumea--fallen
6. Joseph, son of Simon
7. Manasseh
8. John the Essene
9. John, son of Matthias
10. Josephus, son of Matthias
“Thus he said: The fourth beast is the fourth kingdom in the earth, that is diverse from all kingdoms, and it
consumeth all the earth, and treadeth it down, and breaketh it small.” vs. 23
The diversity Daniel sees in the fourth kingdom is the mixing and conflict of Rome and Israel (“iron” and “clay”).
The consuming, trampling and breaking could refer to the zealots or the power of Rome or, more likely, the
grinding of both together.
“And the saints of the Most High it [little horn] doth wear out.” vs. 25
The zealots were, by far, the worst enemy of the common Jews who were caught up in
the war.
Josephus writes:
“To say all in a word, no other gentle passion was so entirely lost among them as
mercy; for what were the greatest objects of pity did most of all irritate these wretches and they transferred their
rage from the living to those that had been slain and from the dead to the living. Nay the terror was so very great
that he who survived [conflict, famine], called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in [zealot] prisons, declare that upon this comparison those that lay unburied were
the happiest.” (Josephus, Wars 4:6:3 )
“And it [little horn] hopeth to change seasons and law; and they [the saints] are given into its hand, till a time, and
times, and a division of a time. vs. 25
The zealots thought they were in charge of history, but were doomed by justice and divinely inspired “appointed
times” regarding their end (Deut. 28-32). The common Jews in Jerusalem were subject to their wicked rule for the
duration of the war, 3.5 years.
“‘And the Judge is seated, and its [little horn’s] dominion they cause to pass away, to cut off, and to destroy —
unto the end;” vs 26
Divine judgment will prevail against the zealots and they will be destroyed. This was fulfilled exactly as prophesied
as recorded in Josephus’s history, “The Wars of the Jews.” The War ended the Old Covenant.
I only said Preterist because she said she was one or a part one. I do not know much about it so I might be wrong, but I think they see everything in the book of Revelation being fulfilled with Ancient Rome and the events of 70 AD. I think they see Nero as the anti-Christ, but I might be totally wrong on all this. Which is why it would be good to get @HeIsHere 's input on it.
I see myself as a Historist. I see the feet of iron and clay in Daniel 2 as representing the 10 nations that were formed with the fall of the Roman Empire.
In Revelation 12:3 we have a red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns his heads
In Revelation 13:1 We see that the crowns have moved from the 7 head to the 10 horns
I see Revelation 12:3 as representing pagan Rome that transforms to the form of a dreadful beast, it carries over with it Rome, but as we see in Revelation 13:1, the authority has moved from the heads to the the horns - and as horns are a biblical symbol that designates a kingdom - it shows that this authority has moved to ten kingdoms. Out of which comes a little horn which I see as the Papacy that took the place of the Caesars, although with more power than they ever had - rules over the kingdoms - over the kings of the earth so to speak.
So you see I go beyond Pagan Rome and See the Revelation as continuing throughout history.
And labels suck yes
Because the SDA church considers themselves to be Historist also and I totally disagree with nearly everything from them. Labels get you associated with others you disagree with
I only said Preterist because she said she was one or a part one. I do not know much about it so I might be wrong, but I think they see everything in the book of Revelation being fulfilled with Ancient Rome and the events of 70 AD. I think they see Nero as the anti-Christ, but I might be totally wrong on all this. Which is why it would be good to get @HeIsHere 's input on it.
I see myself as a Historist. I see the feet of iron and clay in Daniel 2 as representing the 10 nations that were formed with the fall of the Roman Empire.
In Revelation 12:3 we have a red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns his heads
In Revelation 13:1 We see that the crowns have moved from the 7 head to the 10 horns
I see Revelation 12:3 as representing pagan Rome that transforms to the form of a dreadful beast, it carries over with it Rome, but as we see in Revelation 13:1, the authority has moved from the heads to the the horns - and as horns are a biblical symbol that designates a kingdom - it shows that this authority has moved to ten kingdoms. Out of which comes a little horn which I see as the Papacy that took the place of the Caesars, although with more power than they ever had - rules over the kingdoms - over the kings of the earth so to speak.
So you see I go beyond Pagan Rome and See the Revelation as continuing throughout history.
And labels suck yes
As long as you do not promote a "gap week" we are good, lol!
Ok the iron and clay being Rome and Israel I knew was a P view but I have not heard the ten generals part before. Is that P view ?
I took so long writing that post yours was up when I finally sent it - so the Nero thing was wrong yes ?
Just to wind you up - I see gaps between the toes of the statue in Daniel 2 lol
For some not all, of course like anything it can all kinds of factions.
But I would say for those who have really done the work this is one of two strong views, the other being Nero