The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[HeIsHere]

I took so long writing that post yours was up when I finally sent it - so the Nero thing was wrong yes ?

Just to wind you up - I see gaps between the toes of the statue in Daniel 2 lol

Honestly I am not dogmatic about it, but I really think most all of prophecy has to do with ancient Israel, that is what makes sense to me.

 

[Delvianna]

Personal opinion = Little Horn is the nation that comes up out of the 10.
The 10 Nations = King of the North before he gives his allegiance to the anti-christ who is leader of the little horn nation.
Mystery Babylon = Not just the Catholic Church, but all her daughters which includes every single protestant and orthodox denomination. And not that people can't be saved within Babylon, because God says, "come out of her My people". But the church today and its heresies are getting insane. And to clarify, when I say church, I mean the institution.

 

[WayneNSO]

Personal opinion = Little Horn is the nation that comes up out of the 10.
The 10 Nations = King of the North before he gives his allegiance to the anti-christ who is leader of the little horn nation.
Mystery Babylon = Not just the Catholic Church, but all her daughters which includes every single protestant and orthodox denomination. And not that people can't be saved within Babylon, because God says, "come out of her My people". But the church today and its heresies are getting insane. And to clarify, when I say church, I mean the institution.

What's the nation that comes up out of the ten ? Sorry if I am being dumb here.

 

[Delvianna]

What's the nation that comes up out of the ten ? Sorry if I am being dumb here.

Dunno yet, I think its future based. So 10 nations are grouped together under 1 leader. One of those nations rises up and overtakes 3 others. But what the nations are is anyones guess. Personally, I've been looking at Iran before this whole war happened. Now, I'm looking at Iran more than ever. Regime changes usually bring interesting results.

 

[WayneNSO]

Dunno yet, I think its future based. So 10 nations are grouped together under 1 leader. One of those nations rises up and overtakes 3 others. But what the nations are is anyones guess. Personally, I've been looking at Iran before this whole war happened. Now, I'm looking at Iran more than ever. Regime changes usually bring interesting results.

Are you looking at Iran because of the association with ancient Babylon ?

 

[Delvianna]

Are you looking at Iran because of the association with ancient Babylon ?

Based on the locations of the King of the north vs south at the time this was written and how the Muslim groups today generally view each other. Although all that could change. Kind of hard to depict what nations could be in play when politics is moving very fast lately and lots of changes are coming around. I'm not discounting Syria either since they generally expect their "Jesus" to come from Damascus.

 

[WayneNSO]

Based on the locations of the King of the north vs south at the time this was written and how the Muslim groups today generally view each other. Although all that could change. Kind of hard to depict what nations could be in play when politics is moving very fast lately and lots of changes are coming around. I'm not discounting Syria either since they generally expect their "Jesus" to come from Damascus.

Thank you for the reply

 

[Delvianna]

Thank you for the reply

No problem

 

[JustThinking]

@JustThinking

I used to think it was Nero, but I am moving more towards this.. connected in the sense the zealots were trying to overthrow the Roman control.

The Ten Generals were “kings” in charge of various regions of the Holy Land (Wars, 2:20:3-4)
1. Joseph ben Gorion—fallen
2. Ananus former high priest—fallen
3. Jesus, son of Sapphias
4. Eleazar, son of Ananias
5. Niger, governor of Idumea--fallen
6. Joseph, son of Simon
7. Manasseh
8. John the Essene
9. John, son of Matthias
10. Josephus, son of Matthias

“Thus he said: The fourth beast is the fourth kingdom in the earth, that is diverse from all kingdoms, and it
consumeth all the earth, and treadeth it down, and breaketh it small.” vs. 23

The diversity Daniel sees in the fourth kingdom is the mixing and conflict of Rome and Israel (“iron” and “clay”).
The consuming, trampling and breaking could refer to the zealots or the power of Rome or, more likely, the
grinding of both together.

“And the saints of the Most High it [little horn] doth wear out.” vs. 25

The zealots were, by far, the worst enemy of the common Jews who were caught up in
the war.

Josephus writes:

“To say all in a word, no other gentle passion was so entirely lost among them as
mercy; for what were the greatest objects of pity did most of all irritate these wretches and they transferred their
rage from the living to those that had been slain and from the dead to the living. Nay the terror was so very great
that he who survived [conflict, famine], called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in [zealot] prisons, declare that upon this comparison those that lay unburied were
the happiest.” (Josephus, Wars 4:6:3 )

“And it [little horn] hopeth to change seasons and law; and they [the saints] are given into its hand, till a time, and
times, and a division of a time. vs. 25
The zealots thought they were in charge of history, but were doomed by justice and divinely inspired “appointed
times” regarding their end (Deut. 28-32). The common Jews in Jerusalem were subject to their wicked rule for the
duration of the war, 3.5 years.

“‘And the Judge is seated, and its [little horn’s] dominion they cause to pass away, to cut off, and to destroy —
unto the end;” vs 26
Divine judgment will prevail against the zealots and they will be destroyed. This was fulfilled exactly as prophesied
as recorded in Josephus’s history, “The Wars of the Jews.” The War ended the Old Covenant.

Thank you very much and that was interesting interpretations. So if I may, can I ask you a few questions?

1) Do you agree that God has identified 4 and only 4 kingdoms within Daniel where He is going to insert His prophecies as well as to reveal those events His people will go through as they are taken to Babylon and then return to Jerusalem?

2) That God has purposefully used metal as a solid symbol that cannot be changed or altered to present each of the 4 kingdoms?

3) And, as a belt and suspender approach, God would also ensure the separateness and uniqueness of each of the 4 kingdoms by identifying each of the 4 metals with very different body parts of a man? These are His ways of ensuring we understand there are 4 separate and unique kingdoms that do not morph into the other and will be treated and discussed individually. There is no room between each of the metals or the body parts for man to insert another kingdom or king, etc., within this Daniel story (His plan of restoration and salvation).

4) Consequently, if God has purposefully identified the 4 and only 4 metal types as earthly kingdoms, what is the meaning of the clay that is found within the iron feet of the 4th kingdom? God does not do anything without a wonderful reason or purpose.

5) If the clay were left out of the iron feet would there be any doubt that the iron legs and feet would represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome who would terrorize and STAMP OUT every nation it came across? I believe it is a perfect symbol for Rome - they certainly were noted for iron weapons and they would stamp over and crush any and all nations within its path - no remorse at all.

6) Therefore, can you possibly see that God may be inserting the clay within the iron feet to represent His people, Israel, as they are held captive under pagan Rome? After all, God is writing to Daniel specifically as He reveals their return back from the Babylonian destruction.

7) So God is showing us His people are held within the Roman Empire and this would be around the time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy found in chapter 9. His people and His city are now restored and awaiting their Messiah.

8) And since their return to Jerusalem, they have been studying the OT, including Daniel and they were sincerely expecting that their Messiah was soon to come. But, they also were under the assumption that when He arrived, He would come as a conquering King and destroy Rome and set up Israel as the ruling kingdom like it was in the time of King David. That is, the Messiah would literally go to war with the Roman empire and rule forever.

Now, i will stop here and respectfully request that you might comment on the above - pro or con, is fine... please let me know your thoughts...thanks.

 

[JustThinking]

I only said Preterist because she said she was one or a part one. I do not know much about it so I might be wrong, but I think they see everything in the book of Revelation being fulfilled with Ancient Rome and the events of 70 AD. I think they see Nero as the anti-Christ, but I might be totally wrong on all this. Which is why it would be good to get @HeIsHere 's input on it.

I see myself as a Historist. I see the feet of iron and clay in Daniel 2 as representing the 10 nations that were formed with the fall of the Roman Empire.

In Revelation 12:3 we have a red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns his heads
In Revelation 13:1 We see that the crowns have moved from the 7 head to the 10 horns

I see Revelation 12:3 as representing pagan Rome that transforms to the form of a dreadful beast, it carries over with it Rome, but as we see in Revelation 13:1, the authority has moved from the heads to the the horns - and as horns are a biblical symbol that designates a kingdom - it shows that this authority has moved to ten kingdoms. Out of which comes a little horn which I see as the Papacy that took the place of the Caesars, although with more power than they ever had - rules over the kingdoms - over the kings of the earth so to speak.

So you see I go beyond Pagan Rome and See the Revelation as continuing throughout history.

And labels suck yes Because the SDA church considers themselves to be Historist also and I totally disagree with nearly everything from them. Labels get you associated with others you disagree with

Thanks for the response.

 

[JustThinking]

As long as you do not promote a "gap week" we are good, lol!

No gap... no gap... please no gap!

 

[JustThinking]

I took so long writing that post yours was up when I finally sent it - so the Nero thing was wrong yes ?

Just to wind you up - I see gaps between the toes of the statue in Daniel 2 lol

You are forbidden to use the term "gap" in any manner.... No gap... no gap... please no gap!

 

[WayneNSO]

The Statue vision in Daniel 2 lists 5 Kingdoms if you see the rock made without hands that smashes the other kingdoms as the Kingdom of Christ

 

[WayneNSO]

Sorry but I am going to use that word - looking at the statue vision all the kingdoms transition into each other. But if you believe the ten toes are future then there has to be a massive CENSORED from the legs of the statue to the feet

 

[JustThinking]

Personal opinion = Little Horn is the nation that comes up out of the 10.

The 10 Nations = King of the North before he gives his allegiance to the anti-christ who is leader of the little horn nation.

Mystery Babylon = Not just the Catholic Church, but all her daughters which includes every single protestant and orthodox denomination. And not that people can't be saved within Babylon, because God says, "come out of her My people". But the church today and its heresies are getting insane. And to clarify, when I say church, I mean the institution.

That certainly is an interesting interpretation - have not heard that before. However, if I may, I do believe that God has given us enough information WITHIN Daniel to identify the relatively small number of actors within the 12 chapters of Daniel. Most folks do look forward to Revelation to try and identify these 10 horns as well as the little horn. But please keep in mind that Daniel is specificaly written to His people and His city... and of course, that means just about everything in Daniel - approximately 80 - 90% will take place from 606 BC to approximately 500 AD (IMO).

 

[WayneNSO]

The Iron and miry clay feet I see as weaker miry clay kingdoms trying to stick to the stronger Iron kingdoms, but they will not cleave to one another. Kings have always tried to marry their sons and daughters to the kings of other Kingdom in the hopes of unity and peace, but it has never worked.

Today we are forever hearing of the want for a one world order, all nations coming together and losing their individual sovereignty - like it was in the days of the tower of babel - the tower of babel is even the symbol for the European union. But their is always a spanner Kingdom preventing the fulfilment of this Human endevour.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Having said all that I also do see the Israel Rome connection also

 

[JustThinking]

Statue vision in Daniel 2 lists 5 Kingdoms if you see the rock made without hands that smashes the other kingdoms as the Kingdom of Christ

Ok Wayne, this is our first and hopefully last fight... don't like fights, but I have to stress their are only 4 kingdoms - and I want to emphasize there are ONLY 4 metal kingdoms ... and these 4 are the only 4 earthly kingdoms. God's coming kingdom is not a metal or earthly kingdom within His plan given to Daniel....

Let me know your thoughts please.

 

[JustThinking]

Sorry, I really am not understanding what you are trying to say here.....

Sorry but I am going to use that word - looking at the statue vision all the kingdoms transition into each other. But if you believe the ten toes are future then there has to be a massive CENSORED from the legs of the statue to the feet

Sorry, but I am not sure what you are trying to say here. If this statement is meant to address one or more of the comments in post #49 please let me know.. I don't know what you mean by "transitioning' or a "massive censored" something...

 

[JustThinking]

The Iron and miry clay feet I see as weaker miry clay kingdoms trying to stick to the stronger Iron kingdoms, but they will not cleave to one another. Kings have always tried to marry their sons and daughters to the kings of other Kingdom in the hopes of unity and peace, but it has never worked.

Today we are forever hearing of the want for a one world order, all nations coming together and losing their individual sovereignty - like it was in the days of the tower of babel - the tower of babel is even the symbol for the European union. But their is always a spanner Kingdom preventing the fulfilment of this Human endevour.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Having said all that I also do see the Israel Rome connection also

Thanks for the comments... but, if you do not mind, we have yet to get past the understanding or disagreement regarding the number of kingdoms within Daniel. So, please let me know your thoughts on the individual comments in post #49 - I do not want to try and move forward to verse 2:34 until we agree or disagree with the identity of the 4 kingdoms and hopefully the symbolic meaning of the clay within the iron feet.

 

[WayneNSO]

Ok Wayne, this is our first and hopefully last fight... don't like fights, but I have to stress their are only 4 kingdoms - and I want to emphasize there are ONLY 4 metal kingdoms ... and these 4 are the only 4 earthly kingdoms. God's coming kingdom is not a metal or earthly kingdom within His plan given to Daniel....

Let me know your thoughts please.

Yes there are only 4 earthly metal beast Kingdoms but I see the Rock as representing Gods Kingdom that destroys and replaces them all

BTW I do not see this as a fight, nor want one