Does Hebrews 10 say if we willfully sin after being saved there is no more forgiveness?

[Drich]

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...

www.biblegateway.com

Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version

Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[GWH]

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...

www.biblegateway.com

Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version

Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...

www.biblegateway.com

In Rom. 7 Paul bemoans struggling against sin, because like all saints, he was not perfect, although that was his goal,
because he continued to have saving faith, whereas in Heb. 10 saints are urged not to repudiate their faith or commit apostasy (cf. Heb. 6:4-6).

Apples and oranges, but a passage/teaching that tulipists hate.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...

www.biblegateway.com

Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version

Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...

www.biblegateway.com

Key word is "deliberate".

True Christians aren't deliberate about sinning. They struggle with it and sometimes it wins but more often than not, they are submitted to the Holy Spirit so they don't sin deliberately or carelessly.

Hebrews 10 talk about people who are deliberate about sinning, not real Christians.

 

[steve63]

I believe Hebrews 10:26 is talking about professing Christians who have made a deliberate choice to refuse repentance and continue living in sin. It's not talking about Christians who stumble or fall into sin. We know that because just two chapters later (Heb 12:1) the author says:

"let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us".

Here the author says that sin is something that continues to cling closely to believers, so they need to be diligent about laying it aside. In other words, it assumes Christians struggle with sin. Hebrews 10 is talking about people who don't struggle with sin...they have made a deliberate decision to continue in it and have no interest in "laying it aside".

 

[GWH]

I believe Hebrews 10:26 is talking about professing Christians who have made a deliberate choice to refuse repentance and continue living in sin. It's not talking about Christians who stumble or fall into sin. We know that because just two chapters later (Heb 12:1) the author says:

"let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us".

Here the author says that sin is something that continues to cling closely to believers, so they need to be diligent about laying it aside. In other words, it assumes Christians struggle with sin. Hebrews 10 is talking about people who don't struggle with sin...they have made a deliberate decision to continue in it and have no interest in "laying it aside".

No, the passage (Heb. 10:19-39) clearly urges Christians to persevere in saving faith so they will not be destroyed as enemies of God.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?

Hello Drich, the Apostle Paul was struggling with sin as a Hebrew Christian, but those described for us in Hebrews 10:26-27 were not because, unlike Paul, they were Hebrew ~almost~ Christians instead.

While these folks had "received the knowledge of truth" about Jesus (IOW, they knew exactly who He was and why they needed Him to be their Savior & Lord), they had never received, Him (as their Savior). This is why for them, "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins", since they chose to knowingly reject (Hebrews 10:28-29) the ONLY Sacrifice that could have redeemed & saved them from their sins (see Hebrews 9:22, Hebrews 10:4)

So, the disagreement that I have is found in your OP title, where the assumption is made that simply receiving the knowledge of the truth about Jesus necessarily equates with being saved by Him (which cannot be true in this case since the passage makes it clear that they never received Him as their Savior, but continually rejected Him instead).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Aussie52]

In Rom. 7 Paul bemoans struggling against sin, because like all saints, he was not perfect, although that was his goal,
because he continued to have saving faith, whereas in Heb. 10 saints are urged not to repudiate their faith or commit apostasy (cf. Heb. 6:4-6).

Apples and oranges, but a passage/teaching that tulipists hate.

The person Paul describes in the latter part of Romans 7 is not a Christian. He describes himself as,' I am carnal, sold under sin'. v14. These words do not describe a Chistian (see Rom 6) but rather an unsaved Saul trying to find justification through the Law, who finally finds it in Christ v25.

 

[Karlon]

"NO"!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

 

[Aussie52]

Hello Drich, the Apostle Paul was struggling with sin as a Hebrew Christian, but those described for us in Hebrews 10:26-27 were not because, unlike Paul, they were Hebrew ~almost~ Christians instead.

While these folks had "received the knowledge of truth" about Jesus (IOW, they knew exactly who He was and why they needed Him to be their Savior & Lord), they had never received, Him (as their Savior). This is why for them, "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins", since they chose to knowingly reject (Hebrews 10:28-29) the ONLY Sacrifice that could have redeemed & saved them from their sins (see Hebrews 9:22, Hebrews 10:4)

So, the disagreement that I have is found in your OP title, where the assumption is made that simply receiving the knowledge of the truth about Jesus necessarily equates with being saved by Him (which cannot be true in this case since the passage makes it clear that they never received Him as their Savior, but continually rejected Him instead).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

With all due respect I disagree. The people addressed in Hebrews were not 'almost' Christians but Christians that were contemplating a return to Judaism due to persecution. There are several warning passages given to them of the consequences of such a move ie apostasy.
To 'receive a knowledge of the truth' is indeed to be converted/regenerated. I fear you, like many, are looking at this passage through OSAS lens. That is eisegesis not exegesis.

 

[HeIsHere]

Hello Drich, the Apostle Paul was struggling with sin as a Hebrew Christian, but those described for us in Hebrews 10:26-27 were not because, unlike Paul, they were Hebrew ~almost~ Christians instead.

While these folks had "received the knowledge of truth" about Jesus (IOW, they knew exactly who He was and why they needed Him to be their Savior & Lord), they had never received, Him (as their Savior). This is why for them, "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins", since they chose to knowingly reject (Hebrews 10:28-29) the ONLY Sacrifice that could have redeemed & saved them from their sins (see Hebrews 9:22, Hebrews 10:4)

So, the disagreement that I have is found in your OP title, where the assumption is made that simply receiving the knowledge of the truth about Jesus necessarily equates with being saved by Him (which cannot be true in this case since the passage makes it clear that they never received Him as their Savior, but continually rejected Him instead).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

They were believers.
It is not reasonable to assume at the time a Jew would identify as a believer in order to be persecuted by other Jews.
As well losing salvation is not in view either.
The Letter to the Hebrews is all about the certainly of salvation under the new Covenant.

There is sacrifice for all sin under the New Covenant but not under the Levitical system that is what the author has in view.

In the Levitical system animal sacrifices were primarily designed for unintentional sins (sins done in ignorance or error). There were generally no sacrifices provided for deliberate, willful sins (such as outright rebellion or high-handed defiance of God)

So now, the author of Hebrews says, if these Hebrew Christians return to the sacrificial system, then there is no sacrifice there which can offer forgiveness of sins or eternal life.

And if they reject forgiveness through Jesus, then where will they turn for forgiveness? If forgiveness isn’t in the Law, and by returning to the Law, they announce that forgiveness isn’t in Jesus, then “no sacrifice for sin is left.”
Where else can they go to receive forgiveness? No place.

 

[Deuteronomy]

With all due respect I disagree. The people addressed in Hebrews were not 'almost' Christians but Christians that were contemplating a return to Judaism due to persecution. There are several warning passages given to them of the consequences of such a move ie apostasy.
To 'receive a knowledge of the truth' is indeed to be converted/regenerated. I fear you, like many, are looking at this passage through OSAS lens. That is eisegesis not exegesis.

Hello Aussie52, I used to believe what you do about this passage, but I do not believe that the people who are described here are Hebrew Christians, because those of us who truly become Christians all fall into a single category, yes, as those who do NOT reject/continue to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (which is what the Bible tells us that some of these 1st Century Jews were guilty of, even though they were well-aware of who He really was).

Many today in our churches and elsewhere have received a VERY complete knowledge of who Jesus Christ really is (as have all of the demons), and yet they refuse to receive Him as their Savior (which means that they are not/have never been, Christians, of course).

I have a friend who is the senior rabbi at his (Conservative Jewish) temple, but he got his DDiv at a Reformed (Jewish) seminary, so his dissertation options were broad, to say the least Oddly, he chose to write his doctoral dissertation on the Gospel of John.

Now, few (certainly none that I've known, including Christian theologians) have ever known John's Gospel better or (sometimes) even as well as he does, as I've talked with him about it and listened to what he had to say. He explained things to me clearly, like who Jesus really is (God, who came in the flesh as a man) and things like the way of salvation, as well as anyone I've ever heard (e.g. that He also lived and then died on the Cross on our behalf to save us).

After listening to him for awhile I then said, "WOW! .. but since you are a Christian now, how is it that you are still a practicing Jewish rabbi too. Is that something that is allowed in Conservative Judaism" To this he replied, "no, of course not! Just because I know what the Gospel of John says doesn't mean that I believe it" (which brings us to the true heart of the matter, doesn't it).

So, salvation is something far different than simply receiving the knowledge of the truth about the Lord Jesus, EVEN when the extent of that knowledge is as significant, thorough and complete as my friend's is, because salvation not only requires receiving knowledge "about" Him, it ALSO requires receiving Him, too (which is something that I am certain that you and I are in agreement about ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Mem]

They were believers.
It is not reasonable to assume at the time a Jew would identify as a believer in order to be persecuted by other Jews.
As well losing salvation is not in view either.
The Letter to the Hebrews is all about the certainly of salvation under the new Covenant.

There is sacrifice for all sin under the New Covenant but not under the Levitical system that is what the author has in view.

In the Levitical system animal sacrifices were primarily designed for unintentional sins (sins done in ignorance or error). There were generally no sacrifices provided for deliberate, willful sins (such as outright rebellion or high-handed defiance of God)

So now, the author of Hebrews says, if these Hebrew Christians return to the sacrificial system, then there is no sacrifice there which can offer forgiveness of sins or eternal life.

And if they reject forgiveness through Jesus, then where will they turn for forgiveness? If forgiveness isn’t in the Law, and by returning to the Law, they announce that forgiveness isn’t in Jesus, then “no sacrifice for sin is left.”
Where else can they go to receive forgiveness? No place.

I'd say Peter echoed this sentiment when He answered Jesus when the Lord asked them, "Will you go away also?" and Peter answered, "Lord, where would we go? You have the words of life!"

 

[Mem]

It says, "There is no more sacrifice..." because Jesus' sacrifice saves to the utmost. And "the utmost" certainly is relevant in regard to the measure of the degree in available forgiveness.

 

[Deuteronomy]

They were believers.
It is not reasonable to assume at the time a Jew would identify as a believer in order to be persecuted by other Jews.

Hello HeIsHere, I think that it is reasonable to believe that certain Jews (who perhaps had family members or friends who had already become Christians) would choose to attend church to see for themselves what all the fuss was about. I think that it is also reasonable to assume that many of these Jews, who were surely aware of the persecution that would follow IF they became Christians, took very seriously their accumulation of knowledge concerning Him and the Christian faith, but chose (in spite of what they'd learned) to reject Him anyway, and to return forthwith then to their former, cultural life, as the Jews that they always were.

I agree with all of the rest of what you said, but we do differ about the above.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Aussie52]

Hello Aussie52, I used to believe what you do about this passage, but I do not believe that the people who are described here are Hebrew Christians, because those of us who truly become Christians all fall into a single category, yes, as those who do NOT reject/continue to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (which is what the Bible tells us that some of these 1st Century Jews were guilty of, even though they were well-aware of who He really was).

Many today in our churches and elsewhere have received a VERY complete knowledge of who Jesus Christ really is (as have all of the demons), and yet they refuse to receive Him as their Savior (which means that they are not/have never been, Christians, of course).

I have a friend who is the senior rabbi at his (Conservative Jewish) temple, but he got his DDiv at a Reformed (Jewish) seminary, so his dissertation options were broad, to say the least Oddly, he chose to write his doctoral dissertation on the Gospel of John.

Now, few (certainly none that I've known, including Christian theologians) have ever known John's Gospel better or (sometimes) even as well as he does, as I've talked with him about it and listened to what he had to say. He explained things to me clearly, like who Jesus really is (God, who came in the flesh as a man) and things like the way of salvation, as well as anyone I've ever heard (e.g. that He also lived and then died on the Cross on our behalf to save us).

After listening to him for awhile I then said, "WOW! .. but since you are a Christian now, how is it that you are still a practicing Jewish rabbi too. Is that something that is allowed in Conservative Judaism" To this he replied, "no, of course not! Just because I know what the Gospel of John says doesn't mean that I believe it" (which brings us to the true heart of the matter, doesn't it).

So, salvation is something far different than simply receiving the knowledge of the truth about the Lord Jesus, EVEN when the extent of that knowledge is as significant, thorough and complete as my friend's is, because salvation not only requires receiving knowledge "about" Him, it ALSO requires receiving Him, too (which is something that I am certain that you and I are in agreement about ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Quote from New Beacon Bible Commentary. Kevin L Anderson. Page 281.

" 'after we have received the knowledge of the truth', implied an informed rejection of the truth. Arriving at 'the knowledge of the truth' is a standard expression for conversion in the Pastoral Epistles (1 Tim 2:7; 4:3;2 Tim 2:25; 3:7). 'Knowing the truth' is also significant in the writings of John (Jn 8:32; 17:3; 1 Jn 2:21; 2 Jn 1). Enlightenment is a companion motif (Heb 6:4; 10:32).The intensive form for 'knowledge' as well as the preacher's inclusion of himself in its reception (we have received), preclude any suggestion that only false professors of faith are in view. Apostasy is a hazard all believers would do well to avoid".

 

[Inquisitor]

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...

www.biblegateway.com

Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version

Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...

www.biblegateway.com

Which audience was the letter to the Hebrews witten?

 

[Aussie52]

Which audience was the letter to the Hebrews witten?

Mainly converts from Judaism who were under intense persecution and pressure to renounce their faith. Possibly a House Church in Rome.

 

[steve63]

No, the passage (Heb. 10:19-39) clearly urges Christians to persevere in saving faith so they will not be destroyed as enemies of God.

It urges Christians to persevere in faith, not "saving faith". Not all faith is saving faith. James 2 talks about a dead faith that can't save. The test of whether faith is real or not is perseverance. He's calling them to perseverance to prove their faith is real. That's the only way to understand it without contradicting the rest of the New Testament.

 

[Aussie52]

It urges Christians to persevere in faith, not "saving faith". Not all faith is saving faith. James 2 talks about a dead faith that can't save. The test of whether faith is real or not is perseverance. He's calling them to perseverance to prove their faith is real. That's the only way to understand it without contradicting the rest of the New Testament.

No. Saving faith is not the act of a moment but rather an attitude of a lifetime.

 

[steve63]

No. Saving faith is not the act of a moment but rather an attitude of a lifetime.

True, it's not ONLY the act of a moment but it BEGINS at a moment. The subsequent "attitude of a lifetime" demonstrates whether that moment was a genuine conversion or not. Yes, salvation is a process not just a single moment event, but that process has a beginning in time. From God's side of things, that process can NOT be aborted once it has started IF IT TRULY DID START:

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you WILL bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6)

From the human side of things, man's power of self deception is such that he needs to be warned that faith can be lost. But when it is lost, all that means is it was a counterfeit faith. That's why Scripture calls us to self examination:

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" (2 Cor 13:5)